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On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts.
Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are?
I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit".
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The guy is completely right, the only people that agree with KESPA in this matter are the young SC1 fanboys that refuse to let go and roll with the times, i was sort of like that during the SC2 beta but quickly realized that i was just being stubborn. Ever since the first lawsuit, i was browsing the threads wondering what the fuck was going on here when i saw people defending KESPA. Yes, it's somewhat shitty of Blizzard to wait with the lawsuit right until SC2 drops, but they have all the right in the world to do this. They own the rights to Starcraft 2, KESPA is making a profit off their game without out Blizzards consent.
I seriously can not understand what KESPA is trying to achieve with this, they have absolutely no case.
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On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit".
If undergrads knew enough to speak intelligently on a subject then they wouldn't be undergrads. No offense, and I'm sure one day you will be really great in your field, but saying you know what you are talking about because you are an undergrad is like saying you know what life is like because you are in high school.
You might know more than Joe Nobody, but you don't know enough to speak accurately on the subject-- you can just speculate a little more carefully than people outside of the field.
Again, not trying to be offensive, just pointing out that your credentials don't amount to much (though they are more than mine, I only minored in polisci when I was an undergrad).
Edit: Like the guy above me said, I too was pretty skeptical of SC2 when it was announced and during beta. I played BW from like 99 onward, so it was a big change-- but then one of my friends forced me to play SC2, and I haven't looked back.
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I have some feeling this doesn't give a very complete picture. It paints KeSPA as completely evil, but then why did MBCgame and OGN agree to pay fees to them in the first place, if they are just some random bastards? Surely they must have got something in return?
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On November 15 2010 11:22 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit". If undergrads knew enough to speak intelligently on a subject then they wouldn't be undergrads. No offense, and I'm sure one day you will be really great in your field, but saying you know what you are talking about because you are an undergrad is like saying you know what life is like because you are in high school. You might know more than Joe Nobody, but you don't know enough to speak accurately on the subject-- you can just speculate a little more carefully than people outside of the field. Again, not trying to be offensive, just pointing out that your credentials don't amount to much (though they are more than mine, I only minored in polisci when I was an undergrad). Edit: Like the guy above me said, I too was pretty skeptical of SC2 when it was announced and during beta. I played BW from like 99 onward, so it was a big change-- but then one of my friends forced me to play SC2, and I haven't looked back.
I think both of you are on the same side of the argument and you're calling shit on him. Why?
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On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit".
Well then, tell me more about these "well known legal cases" on IP in the esport industry which is still in its infancy and probably still doesnt even have legal precendent.
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On November 15 2010 11:31 Firereaver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:22 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit". If undergrads knew enough to speak intelligently on a subject then they wouldn't be undergrads. No offense, and I'm sure one day you will be really great in your field, but saying you know what you are talking about because you are an undergrad is like saying you know what life is like because you are in high school. You might know more than Joe Nobody, but you don't know enough to speak accurately on the subject-- you can just speculate a little more carefully than people outside of the field. Again, not trying to be offensive, just pointing out that your credentials don't amount to much (though they are more than mine, I only minored in polisci when I was an undergrad). Edit: Like the guy above me said, I too was pretty skeptical of SC2 when it was announced and during beta. I played BW from like 99 onward, so it was a big change-- but then one of my friends forced me to play SC2, and I haven't looked back. I think both of you are on the same side of the argument and you're calling shit on him. Why?
Because whether I am on the right side of an argument or not doesn't mean that I don't have standards.
Whether we agree that SC is Blizzard's property and they can do whatever or not doesn't mean being in college makes someone an expert on law.
Notice that I haven't claimed to be an expert, just offered my opinions. Which pretty much everyone in this thread should also be doing unless they are indeed a practicing lawyer of some sort.
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After some consideration, here's a summation of the facts as I know them and my opinion on them.
The Past
In 2007, KeSPA sold the broadcasting rights of Proleague to MBC and OGN. OGN/MBC were originally against this because they did not recognize KeSPA as the legal owner of Proleague. But with the professional players and teams backing up KeSPA, OGN and MBC had no room for negotiation.
After the KeSPA and MBC/OGN transaction went down, Blizzard decided to sue OGN and MBC. Why them, instead of KeSPA? There's been some speculation about this by other TL members, but I believe it's for a reason that other people haven't mentioned yet.
Current Situation
Blizzard has NO case against KeSPA.
But how is this possible?! KeSPA was the one selling the broadcasting rights in the first place!
KeSPA sold the broadcasting rights to Proleague, not Starcraft. The parties in trouble are OGN/MBC. Not only do they need to purchase broadcasting rights to Proleague from KeSPA, but they also need to buy broadcasting rights to Starcraft from Blizzard. The latter lets you show the game, while the former lets you show the pros playing. The irony behind this is that out of all the parties involved, MBC/OGN are the most innocent ones. Perhaps, the true champions of e-sports since they are the original creators of the Proleague.
The Future
So what's going to happen?
I'm guessing KeSPA will let MBC/OGN take the fall. KeSPA has shown in the past that they don't give a fuck about MBC/OGN and are willing to find other broadcasters instead. Gretech will fizzle initially because while they have broadcasting licenses to Starcraft, they won't be able to get any pro players to participate. And not many people will wants to watch amateurs. KeSPA, on the other hand, won't have much luck either because while they may find other broadcasting companies, I doubt Blizzard will sell broadcasting rights to any company associated with KeSPA.
From this point on, one of two things can happen:
1) Starcraft 1 e-sports dies.
2) KeSPA disbands; the pro players realize their best chance of continuing their SC1 career is with whatever broadcasting company is backed up by Blizzard
In conclusion, regardless of legalities, Blizzard holds all the chips, However, that doesn't stop me from saying, "Fuck Blizzard and KeSPA."
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On November 15 2010 11:22 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit". If undergrads knew enough to speak intelligently on a subject then they wouldn't be undergrads. No offense, and I'm sure one day you will be really great in your field, but saying you know what you are talking about because you are an undergrad is like saying you know what life is like because you are in high school. You might know more than Joe Nobody, but you don't know enough to speak accurately on the subject-- you can just speculate a little more carefully than people outside of the field. Again, not trying to be offensive, just pointing out that your credentials don't amount to much (though they are more than mine, I only minored in polisci when I was an undergrad). Edit: Like the guy above me said, I too was pretty skeptical of SC2 when it was announced and during beta. I played BW from like 99 onward, so it was a big change-- but then one of my friends forced me to play SC2, and I haven't looked back.
Well, in fact I dont think I am an expert on the matter, since blizzard isnt paying me big bucks for every 10mins I spent on the case. But compare to the guy who claims Blizzard has no IP rights and EULA is non-enforceable because he havent read it. I think I have more than enough knowledge to educate him.
On the other hand, I don't think it requires a license or a PhD to realize some people here dont know wtf they are talking about.
No one is 100% sure on this, even lawyers, because they also have to spend time reading the materials. However, there are simple legal facts that they can just tell you right off the bat without even reading the facts.
Also, almost everywhere there are some who are more informed than others, it shows in their posts clearly, when they see something retarded or ill informed, is it wrong to point out?
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I hope Blizzard wins this lawsuit. KeSPA has been pounding their monopoly on BW for far too long and it's starting to disgust me. I hope they learn to co-exist with the GSL and I'm looking forward to a team league for SC2!
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On November 15 2010 11:46 Mioraka wrote:
[
Well, in fact I dont think I am an expert on the matter, since blizzard isnt paying me big bucks for every 10mins I spent on the case. But compare to the guy who claims Blizzard has no IP rights and EULA is non-enforceable because he havent read it. I think I have more than enough knowledge to educate him.
I agree.
On the other hand, I don't think it requires a license or a PhD to realize some people here dont know wtf they are talking about.
Again, I agree.
Also, almost everywhere there are some who are more informed than others, it shows in their posts clearly, when they see something retarded or ill informed, is it wrong to point out?
No, it is not wrong. It just seemed to me the undergrad thing was as silly as the PhD-claiming guy, because really one only needed common sense to point out he was wrong.
On the other hand, I re-read your post and think I misunderstood the tone, so I apologize for me being grumpy (I never learn to stop posting when I'm tired).
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On November 15 2010 11:34 Onisparda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit". Well then, tell me more about these "well known legal cases" on IP in the esport industry which is still in its infancy and probably still doesnt even have legal precendent.
Sure, laws on this area still need to be worked on.
But claiming a company has no IP rights on a game it created is simply idiotic, not reading the EULA and click "I Accept" makes it unenforceable even more so. And, although I didn't read the EULA for starcraft, but I suspect they would've put something along the lines of "you are not authorized to use it for commercial purposes".
Which is exactly what these people have been doing.
Of course, court won't enforce everything on the contract, but it does provide ground for a reasonable guess.
Which is, MBC/OGN have no case.
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and Obama commanded that we shall start a WW3, with Lost Temple, as the battleground!
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On November 15 2010 11:55 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:34 Onisparda wrote:On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit". Well then, tell me more about these "well known legal cases" on IP in the esport industry which is still in its infancy and probably still doesnt even have legal precendent. Sure, laws on this area still need to be worked on. But claiming a company has no IP rights on a game it created is simply idiotic, not reading the EULA and click "I Accept" makes it unenforceable even more so. And, although I didn't read the EULA for starcraft, but I suspect they would've put something along the lines of "you are not authorized to use it for commercial purposes". Which is exactly what these people have been doing. Of course, court won't enforce everything on the contract, but it does provide ground for a reasonable guess. Which is, MBC/OGN have no case.
No matter which side of the argument your own, people will agree that Blizzard is the only party legally allowed to sell the game itself. The use of that game (Such as for pro-league), is what the argument's about.
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On November 15 2010 11:43 MayorITC wrote:
After some consideration, here's a summation of the facts as I know them and my opinion on them.
The Past
In 2007, KeSPA sold the broadcasting rights of Proleague to MBC and OGN. OGN/MBC were originally against this because they did not recognize KeSPA as the legal owner of Proleague. But with the professional players and teams backing up KeSPA, OGN and MBC had no room for negotiation.
After the KeSPA and MBC/OGN transaction went down, Blizzard decided to sue OGN and MBC. Why them, instead of KeSPA? There's been some speculation about this by other TL members, but I believe it's for a reason that other people haven't mentioned yet.
Current Situation
Blizzard has NO case against KeSPA.
But how is this possible?! KeSPA was the one selling the broadcasting rights in the first place!
KeSPA sold the broadcasting rights to Proleague, not Starcraft. The parties in trouble are OGN/MBC. Not only do they need to purchase broadcasting rights to Proleague from KeSPA, but they also need to buy broadcasting rights to Starcraft from Blizzard. The latter lets you show the game, while the former lets you show the pros playing. The irony behind this is that out of all the parties involved, MBC/OGN are the most innocent ones. Perhaps, the true champions of e-sports since they are the original creators of the Proleague.
The Future
So what's going to happen?
I'm guessing KeSPA will let MBC/OGN take the fall. KeSPA has shown in the past that they don't give a fuck about MBC/OGN and are willing to find other broadcasters instead. Gretech will fizzle initially because while they have broadcasting licenses to Starcraft, they won't be able to get any pro players to participate. And not many people will wants to watch amateurs. KeSPA, on the other hand, won't have much luck either because while they may find other broadcasting companies, I doubt Blizzard will sell broadcasting rights to any company associated with KeSPA.
From this point on, one of two things can happen:
1) Starcraft 1 e-sports dies.
2) KeSPA disbands; the pro players realize their best chance of continuing their SC1 career is with whatever broadcasting company is backed up by Blizzard
In conclusion, regardless of legalities, Blizzard holds all the chips, However, that doesn't stop me from saying, "Fuck Blizzard and KeSPA."
Thanks for the information, I was wondering why Blizzard wouldnt sue KeSPA instead of those two, but of course these lawyers earning huge salaries would know what to do more than us.
They would only go to court if they think they can win, or they think they can generate more chips on the table for negotiation.
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On November 15 2010 12:02 TheGreatHegemon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:55 Mioraka wrote:On November 15 2010 11:34 Onisparda wrote:On November 15 2010 11:17 Mioraka wrote:On November 15 2010 11:05 Onisparda wrote:
What is with everyone pretending to be IP experts and stating random shit as if they were facts. Because obviously we are more informed on the matter than you are? I know this since I've been educated on contract law and talk about it with my prof, some of the others talked about it because they are undergrad in law, and you clearly don't know shit since you can't differentiate "well known legal cases" and "random shit". Well then, tell me more about these "well known legal cases" on IP in the esport industry which is still in its infancy and probably still doesnt even have legal precendent. Sure, laws on this area still need to be worked on. But claiming a company has no IP rights on a game it created is simply idiotic, not reading the EULA and click "I Accept" makes it unenforceable even more so. And, although I didn't read the EULA for starcraft, but I suspect they would've put something along the lines of "you are not authorized to use it for commercial purposes". Which is exactly what these people have been doing. Of course, court won't enforce everything on the contract, but it does provide ground for a reasonable guess. Which is, MBC/OGN have no case. No matter which side of the argument your own, people will agree that Blizzard is the only party legally allowed to sell the game itself. The use of that game (Such as for pro-league), is what the argument's about.
Ya well, i got trolled by that Gonodactylus guy.
Hence what i wrote was mostly directed at his arguments, which made no sense at all.
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Heh...I can see why myself as well as some others outside of Korea favor KeSPA while those inside Korea favor Blizzard (they can see how controlling KeSPA is while we see how controlling Blizzard is). I kind of knew that KeSPA was extremely underhanded like that but I had no idea they stooped to actions that low. The way that post was made it seems KeSPA will use any form of business threat from mistreatment of players and whatnot to get their way.
Lesser of two evils...it's really hard to say. Though if what was said in that Korean post, Blizzard is starting to come out the better person. Blizzard at the very least doesn't try to hide it (i.e. stabbing you in the front instead of the back).
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On November 15 2010 11:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 10:51 latan wrote:On November 15 2010 06:13 Myles wrote:On November 15 2010 06:07 latan wrote:
IP is stupid anyway, whoever thought it was possible to own ideas (that are made public)?. returning to the sports analogy:
the manufactures of the equipment, wether it be the ball, the shoes or whatever else, do also own IP rights on all that stuff. what would you thik if they suddenly wanted to charge the stadiums owners a fee for selling broadcasting rights to TV stations?.
I don't think it's such a bad analogy, for the correct analogy, let's imagine for a second that there was actually and inventor and developer of the game of football, would it be right for him to try to control the leagues in such a way?.
when you see a game match wether it is sport or esport you aren't there to see the players or team do their thing, i would say that a match should be owned by the players/teams but this is obviously not a consensus and there won't be any consensus on these matters any time soon. IP rights is a shady area, specially in this digital age. There is a huge difference between sports and video games. A sport consists mostly of rules. To play basketball, baseball, or soccer all you need to enough people and some things to represent goals, bases, ect. You could play any of those sports without any of the proper equipment and get along just fine. Compare that with Starcraft, which is much more than just a set of rules. It also has art and programming and without those you're no longer playing Starcraft. Even if you're using a volleyball in a basketball game, you're still playing basketball. That is why sports and e-sports are incomparable. that is a fair point but i don't see how art + programming = i have a right to control whatever it is that you want to do with the software you BOUGHT from me. since when is the profit aspect of software bussiness considered to go beyond sales? hypothetically one could invent a game, a physicall one, and also invest some time designing it and whatnot. do you have a right to have control over every single tournament after everyone knows how to play it? the most you could do is patent the equipment and have exclusivity and the sales of it. starcrat is the equipment, they have exclusivity on the sale of it. and they already sold it to you. the ball=software analogy seems perfectly accurate with this point of view. because in all fairness blizzard didn't invent any of the fundamentals of the game. the game is something that goes beyond that, blizzard just made some fine equipment to play it. Blizzard created this specific game. If KeSPA wanted to create a game that plays the same but has different art/sounds and made the game their own, they have free control over it. I dont know the extent of how similar it can be before copyright comes into play, but they can make their own version and be fine. No matter how you argue it, blizzard owns and controls SC. That is it, no matter what you argue it wont change it, even if it doesnt make sense to you. EDIT: What I see some people arguing, is that certain moves are the IP of the players. This doesnt make sense, since they are just operating within the game of BW. If I kick a ball, can I claim that the act of kicking the ball is my IP?
Sense is a keyword here, no matter how much you want to dissmiss it, we're discussing in the abstract here and nothing's set in stone. it does matter if it makes sense or not, the law is behind in these situations and things should make sense or otherwise we're all fucked.
it makes absolutely no sense that blizz can expect to control the use i give to the software i bought if i'm not incurring in taking sales away from them. that is the bottom line for me. they shouldn't be allowed to do this. if the law allows them it's because it's a grey area and things aren't well defined legally, not because it's a fair right of them to have.
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Regardless of the law, Kespa can't both claim SC IP is infact public property and ask for the $$
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Thanks for this. I wasn't exactly clear on what all this drama was about beforehand.
But why is this in the SC2 section?
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EPT
