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On November 01 2010 01:31 bokeevboke wrote:
Not gonna say anything about whether Progamers should be involved in balancing of game. I am not qualified for that. But I do wanna point out that the latest VoidRay nerf was based on MakaPrime's findings. He played Protoss and submitted replay with clear explanation of why VRs OP.
It kinda makes me sad, he is top terran player and cares only about his race. I remember him shamelessly crushing a zerg in GSL 1 with 5 rax reaper, which everyone agreed to be OP (on release version of SC2). He didn't submit replay that time eventhough imbalance was pretty obvious.
I lost any kind of respect for him.
Terrans are not losing very hard against P or Z. And balance is debatable. But look, protoss players don't cry eventhough they suffer alot more from roach buff than Terrans. Imbalance of TvZ was very evident and IdrA/Dimaga had solid argument to whine. Its to early to say Z>T now, terrans have so many undiscovered potential.
I don't know. It is up to Blizzard to decide in the end what's imbalanced and needs to be changed. The higher we get in terms of skill the smaller the margin of error gets and here we find ourself with players who play hours upon hours against each other. In the state we are now I expect progamers to be frustrated. The same thing happens in Brood War but the focus there is mainly on maps. You still hear progamers complaining about maps and then there are players who somehow overcome map imbalance with ease.
With SC2 now you have this extra layer of a potential imbalance and because these players play and know that they play on the highest level it's no surprise to me that they complain about balance(changes).
Boxer's strongest point is his understanding of strategy. That is also the reason why he's already a top player. He knows how to practice and how to see the game behind the game, because he's been a progamer for 10 years! Instead of going "blabla he's just QQing" I for myself think "Well go on, try random then. Maybe it works out for the better?". I just dont get the sentiment that a player has to stick to "his" race for ever and ever. There might be a possibility that Boxer could be a better Protoss then Terran. iloveoov was a Zerg player and then switched to Terran when he went pro (thanks to Boxer finding him) only to revolutionise timing and macro later on.
I'm not saying Boxer is right or wrong. All I'm saying is I do understand when players get frustrated. But in the end it's Blizzard who makes the game.
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On November 01 2010 05:21 StarcraftMan wrote:
Good grief. You realize that the top SC2 players right now are practically ALL FROM BW? Again, you lose more credibility!
You couldn't answer my question because there is no Zerg player in GSL2 that is TWICE the skill level of Nada.
Again, learn to read. I never said it applied to everyone but to a decent amount of zerg players.
Not my problem if your feelings get hurt and you suffer nerd collapse the instant someone says something that could (not even actually does!) be mean to your e-idol.
Just because a lot of people are not categorized as "pro" by an ultra-minority of fanboys doesn't mean they don't have a clue about balance nor that their opinions are "less valid". Your argument that "they come from BW haha" is no more valid than the rest of your comments since these guys basically play 24/7/365. If you try long enough you can make a monkey play mozart, and no that's not an insult.
Trying to have the game balanced just by following the observations of people who play for money will result in the game becoming the most broken clusterfuck ever created. "pros" do NOT want the game to be balanced in any way. Well maybe the players do but the companies financing them and their handlers have zero interest in seeing a game played fair and square where each player is at 50-50 chance to win.
E-sports also have absolutely no chance of succeeding in the western world with people with your attitude around; it will only give more fodder to the media to portray professional gamers/those who gravitate around pro-gaming to be socially inapt insane nerds going off the d-band if you even mention the name of their cyber-idol the wrong way.
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On November 01 2010 05:07 TeamSoliduss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 04:48 StarcraftMan wrote:
ROFL. Are you saying the zerg players in GSL2 are twice the skill level of Nada in BW?
Name one zerg player in GSL2 that was twice the skill level of Nada in BW please or you just lost all credibility.
Seems to me that the guy losing all credibility is the one comparing DIFFERENT GAMES. Also, where did I say it applied to ALL PLAYERS ? Learn to read before trying to be a smartass. Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 05:03 AmstAff wrote:
Maybe its the gamebalance that makes bad zergs beat better P/T users? seriously i didnt saw any improvement of any NA/EU Zerg, they play the same shit since beta and P/T were the 2 races that always improved and found new builds/timings. Lol, yeah right. So when a notoriously overpowered race beats zergs it's because "you're all better players anyways" and when the nerfbat cracks your pseudo-skill in half it instantly becomes "imbalanced omg" ? If you were such "awesome players" you'd still be winning by a considerable margin. Guess it's time to crash back to reality. Seems to me some egos were hurt pretty badly by that patch.
yes my ego got hurt badly, cause my winrate is still the same :D I always said that Terran is stronger than P or Z in the early game, but the longer the game goes the weaker Terran gets. I always said that the reason why so many T's are 1 base all-inning, is because everything with more bases becomes way harder for the Terran then for the Zerg. Why trying to get a macro game, if you will be behind anyway or will need way more skill than your opponent?
No one said "we are better players", but its exactly what you are saying right now.
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On November 01 2010 05:46 Kachna wrote:
I dont really understand what do you mean by companies having "zero interest" of game being balanced. I usually criticize Blizzard a lot but they are atleast doing something to balance their games. Maybe you just meant they dont want to balance but they kinda have to.
Not blizzard............
Companies/Handlers shelling money to finance "pro gaming teams" have no interest to see the game balanced. The world being what it is, that money leverage can very well be exploited for players to bitch about "balance issues" meant solely to give them an advantage.
Less balance = more wins for player XYZ = more money for both the player and the company backing him up.
And if people think it can't happen you don't need to look that far back in history to see that gaming is no less crooked than other sports.
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In my opinion he definitly should stay Terran!
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The best way to balance a game is when the pros give feedback to an objective moderator (i.e. Blizzard, in an ideal world), who balances the game. The problem is, and has always been, the general community. Every RTS game's balance turns to shit as soon as the developers start listening to general consensus. The worst possible thing a developer can do for game balance is listen to the non-pro community. I have seen so many games ruined this way.
Boxer's comment is completely in-line and acceptable. He wasn't even whining, he was just stating his opinion to an interviewer. At least he doesn't come on here, make posts/threads intentionally trying to involve the community (idrA/Artosis style) and turn them into an angry mob to force Blizzard to make bad changes out of fear of bad PR. That's how we get patches like 1.1.2.
There's nothing wrong with pros making statements about game balance as long as they do it rationally and don't try to get their sheep to go to war for them over it. That's when it gets really frustrating.
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On November 01 2010 05:51 iEchoic wrote:
The best way to balance a game is when the pros give feedback to an objective moderator (i.e. Blizzard, in an ideal world), who balances the game. The problem is, and has always been, the community. Every RTS game's balance turns to shit as soon as the developers start listening to general consensus and the community.
Boxer's comment is completely in-line and acceptable. He wasn't even whining, he was just stating his opinion to an interviewer. At least he doesn't come on here, make posts/threads intentionally trying to involve the community (idrA/Artosis style) and turn the community into an angry mob to force Blizzard to make bad changes out of fear of bad PR. That's how we get patches like 1.1.2.
now you will get the hate of all Zergs, cause everyone should now that IdrA and Artosis would never whine and are pro's and if they say Zerg is UP, ZERG IS UP! Who cares this noob called boxer, if you have the opinions of idra and artosis^^
I respect artosis for his work, but seriously he isn't interested in gamebalance (at least not as long as he still dreams to be a progamer).
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You guys need to remember that these guys do this for a living.
I don't think, if we're honest here, that we could say that they'd even WANT a perfectly balanced game. Every single person who plays this game competitively is slightly race-biased. Everybody would like their race to have a little bit of an edge.
Hell, if you were playing for 85,000 dollars, wouldn't you like your race to be a little better than the others?
Not to say that's Boxer's intention here, but everyone is susceptible to getting frustrated with a matchup and blaming it on balance, especially when a game is this young and balance is so much up in the air.
This is just a single interview, maybe he was feeling frustrated and pissed off about his ZvT games as of late or something. Let's not all jump to conclusions.
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On October 30 2010 06:09 YMCApylons wrote:
If you don't know ....... who CholeraSC is...you have a lot to learn before saying anything about Boxer. [/b]
I have no idea who CholeraSC is... I've been watching bw since the grrr... era.
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If boxer says Terran is UP, Terran is UP... this is the man that bring SCBW Terran to be the dominat race whan it was consideret UP...
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On November 01 2010 09:51 checo wrote:
If boxer says Terran is UP, Terran is UP... this is the man that bring SCBW Terran to be the dominat race whan it was consideret UP...
Exactly, he turned an UP Terran race into a viable race, when everybody else at the time thought Terran in BW was UP. Boxer would be the last Pro-Player to QQ over something minor but he recognizes there are significant balance issues in SC2 now.
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On November 01 2010 09:11 Subversion wrote:
You guys need to remember that these guys do this for a living.
I don't think, if we're honest here, that we could say that they'd even WANT a perfectly balanced game. Every single person who plays this game competitively is slightly race-biased. Everybody would like their race to have a little bit of an edge.
Hell, if you were playing for 85,000 dollars, wouldn't you like your race to be a little better than the others?
Not to say that's Boxer's intention here, but everyone is susceptible to getting frustrated with a matchup and blaming it on balance, especially when a game is this young and balance is so much up in the air.
This is just a single interview, maybe he was feeling frustrated and pissed off about his ZvT games as of late or something. Let's not all jump to conclusions.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I"VE BEEN SAYING. Boxer has reasons to say the stuff he's been saying. His career is on the line. Of course he wants people to think T isn't OP so that they would stop nerfing his race (that is directly connected to his job)
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On November 01 2010 13:52 lastmotion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 09:11 Subversion wrote:
You guys need to remember that these guys do this for a living.
I don't think, if we're honest here, that we could say that they'd even WANT a perfectly balanced game. Every single person who plays this game competitively is slightly race-biased. Everybody would like their race to have a little bit of an edge.
Hell, if you were playing for 85,000 dollars, wouldn't you like your race to be a little better than the others?
Not to say that's Boxer's intention here, but everyone is susceptible to getting frustrated with a matchup and blaming it on balance, especially when a game is this young and balance is so much up in the air.
This is just a single interview, maybe he was feeling frustrated and pissed off about his ZvT games as of late or something. Let's not all jump to conclusions. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I"VE BEEN SAYING. Boxer has reasons to say the stuff he's been saying. His career is on the line. Of course he wants people to think T isn't OP so that they would stop nerfing his race (that is directly connected to his job)
Yeah except boxer has tons of money and probably doesn't need to work anymore, he just wants to do it for the prestige and because he loves the game.
And never mind the obvious TvZ imbalanced season 2 has shown (mvpvZenio, zerg having twice the wins and equaling terran in RO8 even if only like 15 of them were registered, invincible FE, etc).
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On November 01 2010 16:00 klauz619 wrote:
Yeah except boxer has tons of money and probably doesn't need to work anymore, he just wants to do it for the prestige and because he loves the game.
And never mind the obvious TvZ imbalanced season 2 has shown (mvpvZenio, zerg having twice the wins and equaling terran in RO8 even if only like 15 of them were registered, invincible FE, etc).
If gaming provided one with the possibility to stop working for good, it would be known.
Stop dreaming. He may have some in the bank but certainly not enough to live off for the rest of his life.
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On November 01 2010 16:04 TeamSoliduss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 16:00 klauz619 wrote:
Yeah except boxer has tons of money and probably doesn't need to work anymore, he just wants to do it for the prestige and because he loves the game.
And never mind the obvious TvZ imbalanced season 2 has shown (mvpvZenio, zerg having twice the wins and equaling terran in RO8 even if only like 15 of them were registered, invincible FE, etc). If gaming provided one with the possibility to stop working for good, it would be known. Stop dreaming. He may have some in the bank but certainly not enough to live off for the rest of his life.
He is one of the highest-paid professional gamers, with annual earnings that exceed $300,000 US Dollars and endorsement contracts that bring in an additional $90,000 per year.
From wiki. If true, he should be golden in Korea. Fo' life.
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On October 30 2010 06:14 miNix wrote:Show nested quote +
Q: The player who has the Boxer ID has said he has permission to switch ID.
A: Objectively, he's a better player than me right now. Based on skills, he should continue to use the ID, haha.
woah :D FoxeR FoxeR FoxeR FoxeR
FauxeR ? 8]
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I fail to see how "terran is so weak lategame they are underpowered"... Hopetorture and FauxeR just Dominated. HopeTorture in particular, made NEXGenius look like a newb, even tho he had mass collosus/voidrays/etc.. He still couldnt stop the nexus sniping marauders which kills a nexus in 2 seconds, or the mass marauders even raping mass collosus..
Where is this terran lategame weakness? Cause I'd like to know.. and im sure all the GSL protoss players would like to know also, so they would stop getting dominated by terrans who attack-move marauders for 50 minutes.
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On November 01 2010 05:51 iEchoic wrote:
The best way to balance a game is when the pros give feedback to an objective moderator (i.e. Blizzard, in an ideal world), who balances the game. The problem is, and has always been, the general community. Every RTS game's balance turns to shit as soon as the developers start listening to general consensus. The worst possible thing a developer can do for game balance is listen to the non-pro community. I have seen so many games ruined this way.
No, they have to take into account many sources of information, which they do. The views of pros have their own problems, no least of which is they have a vested interest in claiming their race is weak.
There's nothing wrong with pros making statements about game balance as long as they do it rationally and don't try to get their sheep to go to war for them over it. That's when it gets really frustrating.
True. However BoxeR is obviously wrong, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out either. The "shutup boxer is amazing you're just a noob" thing is asinine because pros disagree with each other all the time, so clearly many of them are full of it. In fact they usually disagree with each other as much as the general community does, so chances are everyones full of shit.
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EPT
