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On November 01 2010 01:05 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 21:53 HwangjaeTerran wrote:I think this thread is the epitome of the sc2 forums state Why? 1. BoxeR2. BoxeR says he is having a hard time playing TvZ and if he doesn´t find a solution or a patch doesn´t come out he might switch to random 3. BoxeR gets bashed for 19 pages by people with no merits or any value whatsoever in the world of e-sports - Shit like: " Yeah he was good in BW but knows shit of SC2" + Show Spoiler +ro8 in GSL2, has probably the best TvT we´ve seen so far " I´ve lost all respect, he just QQs. zerg imba and shit" + Show Spoiler +fact; BoxeR has nothing more in his life than e-sports, he is 30+ has no education, would literally have nothing else he can do. Also he has made more comebacks in his career than anyone, started big proteams & Airforce Ace, promoted for e-sports more than anyone you could name. Then you start thinking how much shit he must´ve gone through doing all this while keeping always his cool and natural appearance. He still shows pretty much no ego and keeps his feet to the ground...always, always thankful for his fans. What would he be if he had QQ´d even once in his career ? TL mods and banlings are great and SC2 forums cause them a ton of work but still it starts to resemble 4chan more than TL. The reason why I think TL is the best e-community ever is not only due to mod staff but also to the common poster. Here (SC2) people post like they have more merits and knowledge than actual progamers. I hope people would realize that even if you are anonymous in the internet you can still keep some humility or atleast pretend you have some. The arrogance is infuriating. Sure Boxer is having trouble with other races, but is this the reason to tell blizzard they can't balance the game? I remember in other interview said something like "I don't like direction blizzard balancing goes because they want to balance team games" First of all, I don't care if your emperor, Fruitdealer, Idra or someone else - you SHOULD NEVER say Blizzard doesn't know how to balance game because first of all your just playing 1v1 and only one race and you don't know what the hell is going on outside that. On top of that Blizzard has the numbers for their balance - you do not. Finally, I really don't like people attitude to balancing game in team games. If team games reaches the point where 90% of people doing mass reaper/mass speedling in team games and have over 70% success rate actions need to be taken. We all play starcraft competitively, but let's not forget there are many other people who want to enjoy the game beyond 1v1.
You know how Blizz had time to sink into executing facebook integration, but not putting together chat channels? I'd say that's evidence of skewed priorities, to say the least. Same goes for their attitude towards teamgames. Until proven otherwise, blizz is doing some pretty insane things in the name of 2v2 balance. Care to argue that the reaper nerfs were justified?
And please don't disrespect Fruitdealer, Idra or the Empreror. It's safe to say they all know a great deal about the game and could very well understand the game better than the developers. That's why Blizzard asks for progamer input. You've got a lot of nerve saying shit like that.
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On November 01 2010 01:31 bokeevboke wrote:
Terrans are not losing very hard against P or Z. And balance is debatable. But look, protoss players don't cry eventhough they suffer alot more from roach buff than Terrans. Imbalance of TvZ was very evident and IdrA/Dimaga had solid argument to whine. Its to early to say Z>T now, terrans have so many undiscovered potential.
yea;
its been barely a month since the last patch? just gotta let it ride out a bit no?
man i hope im not way off on that.
roaches do scare me more now as a terran but i mean; we gotta be honest, zergs needed that buff. its not a matter of want; it was a need.
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On November 01 2010 01:52 jjun212 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 01:31 bokeevboke wrote:
Terrans are not losing very hard against P or Z. And balance is debatable. But look, protoss players don't cry eventhough they suffer alot more from roach buff than Terrans. Imbalance of TvZ was very evident and IdrA/Dimaga had solid argument to whine. Its to early to say Z>T now, terrans have so many undiscovered potential. yea; its been barely a month since the last patch? just gotta let it ride out a bit no? man i hope im not way off on that. roaches do scare me more now as a terran but i mean; we gotta be honest, zergs needed that buff. its not a matter of want; it was a need.
Lol. No. Terran were only ahead in the respect of harassment. Zerg hate harassment because it's detremental to the type of game zerg like to play... zerg like a game where they don't get harassed and they can beat their opponent by having a superior economy. Zerg were being beaten down in the most frustrating way possible and that's why they were complaining. Honestly though, look at the average points for players in diamond league:
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Protoss: 942
Terran: 939
Zerg: + Show Spoiler +
It was like this before patch too, but the difference was half that.
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Blizzard's balance is pretty shoddy this time round. Reapers were a very good answer to banelings, but now there is only a small timing window in which they can be used. It's not very fun, having a unit that is only usable to get a FE in response to a FE and are worthless once mutas are out. The change was horrible, plain horrible, and any imbalances in team games stem from the fact that allied bases aren't located together and the ramps are not standard 1v1 width.
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On November 01 2010 02:20 TERRANLOL wrote:Honestly though, look at the average points for players in diamond league: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allProtoss: 942 Terran: 939 Zerg: 1023 It was like this before patch too, but the difference was half that.
It never occured to you that it could have been due to zerg players having to improve & adapt faster than other races ?
Zerg players were already struggling like crazy, playing a completely blind game against Terrans "lol hellion+marauders 1a win" or Protoss that could essentially "lol void ray rush 1a win".
I played Terran before and switched to Zerg during the imba days to see if their arguments were valid... And they were ! It was practically unplayable against any half-assed terran, if not downright impossible against competent terran players.
While most of the Ts remained more or less on the same skill level (the matchup having been so easy), a vast number of zerg players drastically improved in a very short timeframe. Zs actually HAD to learn from their mistakes while Terrans (Protoss on a minor scale) didn't really need to because there was little if no punishment at all for making mistakes.
This specifically affected pro-gaming level as well as evidenced by the number of games where "favorite" terran players are now getting STEAMROLLED by players they used to think were of equal skill level while in reality they were quite higher.
Now that the patch has more or less balanced things out (And it doesn't affect ZvT that much either, the most to suffer from it are protoss), most of the terran players are fighting Zerg & Protoss opponents that easily have twice their skill level.
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On November 01 2010 03:32 TeamSoliduss wrote:It never occured to you that it could have been due to zerg players having to improve & adapt faster than other races ? Zerg players were already struggling like crazy, playing a completely blind game against Terrans "lol hellion+marauders 1a win" or Protoss that could essentially "lol void ray rush 1a win". I played Terran before and switched to Zerg during the imba days to see if their arguments were valid... And they were ! It was practically unplayable against any half-assed terran, if not downright impossible against competent terran players. While most of the Ts remained more or less on the same skill level (the matchup having been so easy), a vast number of zerg players drastically improved in a very short timeframe. Zs actually HAD to learn from their mistakes while Terrans (Protoss on a minor scale) didn't really need to because there was little if no punishment at all for making mistakes. This specifically affected pro-gaming level as well as evidenced by the number of games where "favorite" terran players are now getting STEAMROLLED by players they used to think were of equal skill level while in reality they were quite higher. Now that the patch has more or less balanced things out (And it doesn't affect ZvT that much either, the most to suffer from it are protoss), most of the terran players are fighting Zerg & Protoss opponents that easily have twice their skill level.
Strange, I'm playing zerg now and I find it about 10x easier than Terran. I found protoss the easiest to play, but capping my skill level - I'm not into playing perfect games even if it's easier to do than the other races. I think most zerg QQing don't understand their most basic mechanic that makes their race powerful - larvae, which is why I always hear weird things like they can't defend against reaper rushes, and hellions 1a to victory (build units - any units!). I arbitrarily choose Terran and Zerg now on the ladder, and when I choose Terran and my opponent is zerg I beat them most of them time. You know why? They didn't build any units. The funny thing is, they should have twice the economy as me if they're being that greedy, yet half the time they just aren't spending their money. It makes me wonder how they got ranked so high (1600 diamond) if they don't have the basics down.
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On November 01 2010 01:44 GenericTerranPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 01:05 AyJay wrote:On October 31 2010 21:53 HwangjaeTerran wrote:I think this thread is the epitome of the sc2 forums state Why? 1. BoxeR2. BoxeR says he is having a hard time playing TvZ and if he doesn´t find a solution or a patch doesn´t come out he might switch to random 3. BoxeR gets bashed for 19 pages by people with no merits or any value whatsoever in the world of e-sports - Shit like: " Yeah he was good in BW but knows shit of SC2" + Show Spoiler +ro8 in GSL2, has probably the best TvT we´ve seen so far " I´ve lost all respect, he just QQs. zerg imba and shit" + Show Spoiler +fact; BoxeR has nothing more in his life than e-sports, he is 30+ has no education, would literally have nothing else he can do. Also he has made more comebacks in his career than anyone, started big proteams & Airforce Ace, promoted for e-sports more than anyone you could name. Then you start thinking how much shit he must´ve gone through doing all this while keeping always his cool and natural appearance. He still shows pretty much no ego and keeps his feet to the ground...always, always thankful for his fans. What would he be if he had QQ´d even once in his career ? TL mods and banlings are great and SC2 forums cause them a ton of work but still it starts to resemble 4chan more than TL. The reason why I think TL is the best e-community ever is not only due to mod staff but also to the common poster. Here (SC2) people post like they have more merits and knowledge than actual progamers. I hope people would realize that even if you are anonymous in the internet you can still keep some humility or atleast pretend you have some. The arrogance is infuriating. Sure Boxer is having trouble with other races, but is this the reason to tell blizzard they can't balance the game? I remember in other interview said something like "I don't like direction blizzard balancing goes because they want to balance team games" First of all, I don't care if your emperor, Fruitdealer, Idra or someone else - you SHOULD NEVER say Blizzard doesn't know how to balance game because first of all your just playing 1v1 and only one race and you don't know what the hell is going on outside that. On top of that Blizzard has the numbers for their balance - you do not. Finally, I really don't like people attitude to balancing game in team games. If team games reaches the point where 90% of people doing mass reaper/mass speedling in team games and have over 70% success rate actions need to be taken. We all play starcraft competitively, but let's not forget there are many other people who want to enjoy the game beyond 1v1. You know how Blizz had time to sink into executing facebook integration, but not putting together chat channels? I'd say that's evidence of skewed priorities, to say the least. Same goes for their attitude towards teamgames. Until proven otherwise, blizz is doing some pretty insane things in the name of 2v2 balance. Care to argue that the reaper nerfs were justified? And please don't disrespect Fruitdealer, Idra or the Empreror. It's safe to say they all know a great deal about the game and could very well understand the game better than the developers. That's why Blizzard asks for progamer input. You've got a lot of nerve saying shit like that.
I'm not disrespecting those guys, but their attitude isn't justified. Yes Blizzard asks progamers about their opinion on game, but they also stated that most of the times that opinion can be biased.
Facebook implementation - you think it takes a lot more coding than chat channels?
Reapers - they aren't dead, I've seen them in use (although mass reaper is pretty dead). Sure they took huge hit and Blizzard agrees on that, but at the same time Terran had a lot of openings already. Protoss Carriers aren't seen in many pro games, but does that mean they are broken? Probably not. Good players will find strategies with tools they have, bad players will keep asking for buffs.
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On October 31 2010 20:10 klauz619 wrote:
Terrans tech fast thanks to labs and early build tech.
Their unit production speed is complete garbage though, they can't spam units so fast like protoss/zerg.
Make addons longer/more expensive and you will see 4 gating protoss have a 40 supply army vs terran's 15-20 with standard build.
What most players fail to realize is that Terran cannot MASS tech faster than the other races, because if you don't have enough tech labs to swap when going mass late units, you have to build another tech lab. Thus, Terran players have to build a Starport AND then another tech lab if they run out of tech labs to swap with. Compare this to Protoss who build ONE fleet beacon which applies to ALL subsequent stargates built - the same for Zerg with the Greater Spire.
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I think something is broken if it's there in the tech tree and is never an option in most games.
The reaper in SC2 suffers from an immense problem - they have a time bomb ticking down on them. I agree, they were too strong early because of how they pigeonholed zerg into making only one thing early, but now not only are they useless in combat, their role is getting superseded by hellion drops which when done correctly don't lose you any gas.
The Carrier/BC/BL too. It all depends on the style of games, but unless at very high level, most games are short. Even tournaments don't showcase t3 units much. It's just hard to get an accurate statement on how good they are (they probably aren't) because there just isn't enough data on them. BCs weren't all that good even before the nerf because who actually got to make a handful of them? Just a gimmicky PDD+repair abuse rush unit. 2 base carriers were great fun to watch and are always viable. I wonder when we will see such a style of game happen again.
A lot of people say t3 shouldn't be autowin, like what T is saying about autoloss ultra pops. I really disagree on where the problem lies. The problem is that you are forced into combating such a dominant style of Z play that contains you and demands a specific composition to beat such that if ultras hit you simply lose. It's not a RACIAL imbalance, it's a GAMEFLOW imbalance. It would be fun to see t3 vs t3 after maybe 15-20 mins.
TLDR - I shouldn't have to choose only scissors to beat paper, I should be able to try fire, razor blades, teeth and claws...so that the game can progress further down the tech tree.
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It never occured to you that it could have been due to zerg players having to improve & adapt faster than other races ?
most of the terran players are fighting Zerg & Protoss opponents that easily have twice their skill level.
This isn't wow, arguments that stupid doesn't work here.
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On October 31 2010 21:53 HwangjaeTerran wrote:I think this thread is the epitome of the sc2 forums state Why? 1. BoxeR2. BoxeR says he is having a hard time playing TvZ and if he doesn´t find a solution or a patch doesn´t come out he might switch to random 3. BoxeR gets bashed for 19 pages by people with no merits or any value whatsoever in the world of e-sports - Shit like: " Yeah he was good in BW but knows shit of SC2" + Show Spoiler +ro8 in GSL2, has probably the best TvT we´ve seen so far " I´ve lost all respect, he just QQs. zerg imba and shit" + Show Spoiler +fact; BoxeR has nothing more in his life than e-sports, he is 30+ has no education, would literally have nothing else he can do. Also he has made more comebacks in his career than anyone, started big proteams & Airforce Ace, promoted for e-sports more than anyone you could name. Then you start thinking how much shit he must´ve gone through doing all this while keeping always his cool and natural appearance. He still shows pretty much no ego and keeps his feet to the ground...always, always thankful for his fans. What would he be if he had QQ´d even once in his career ? TL mods and banlings are great and SC2 forums cause them a ton of work but still it starts to resemble 4chan more than TL. The reason why I think TL is the best e-community ever is not only due to mod staff but also to the common poster. Here (SC2) people post like they have more merits and knowledge than actual progamers. I hope people would realize that even if you are anonymous in the internet you can still keep some humility or atleast pretend you have some. The arrogance is infuriating.
^^^
QFT
I would further add that for a 31 year old player with a slower APM compared to the other top pros, Boxer has to have better insight into SC2 to stay competitive with the younger & faster players. Thus, Boxer probably understands SC2 better than some of the other top pros and if he says there are balance issues, then there are balance issues.
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On October 31 2010 22:13 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 Kyuki wrote:
You generalize this thread way to much, though I agree with some of what you're saying.
I personally respect BoxeR more than any other progamer besides Jaedong, but I get frustrated and annoyed when he outright QQs in official interviews. I've said why I feel that way already, and I just can't belive how people can bow down and think that everything he says would be law when it comes to a game that is 3 months old. Sure he has feelings and ideas and frustration, like all players, but he shouldnt cry about it in interviews.
Meh. Your not getting frustrated becouse hes QQing in a offical interview, your getting frustrated becouse you play Zerg and think your better then you actually are. Wonder what u posted in Dimaga's Threads and on idra's Rants about Terran prepatch. Everything boxer says should be law...
LOL, Kyuki thinks he understands SC2 better than Boxer 
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On November 01 2010 04:27 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 20:10 klauz619 wrote:
Terrans tech fast thanks to labs and early build tech.
Their unit production speed is complete garbage though, they can't spam units so fast like protoss/zerg.
Make addons longer/more expensive and you will see 4 gating protoss have a 40 supply army vs terran's 15-20 with standard build.
What most players fail to realize is that Terran cannot MASS tech faster than the other races, because if you don't have enough tech labs to swap when going mass late units, you have to build another tech lab. Thus, Terran players have to build a Starport AND then another tech lab if they run out of tech labs to swap with. Compare this to Protoss who build ONE fleet beacon which applies to ALL subsequent stargates built - the same for Zerg with the Greater Spire.
I get what you are trying to say but Protoss is a bad example. Fleet beacon is more like a fusion core, Templar archives is more like ghost academy (harder to get so not exact) and robo support bay is more like an armory. Obviously there are other differences between those buildings but Protoss are mostly in the same boat when it comes to increasing production capability. Warp gate mechanics change the dynamic a whole lot but in regards to structures you need to build they are similar.
Zerg has that awesome tech switching ability because of their hatcheries but upgrading a spire to a greater spire is more similar to building a fusion core or a fleet beacon than building the spire in the first place.
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On November 01 2010 03:32 TeamSoliduss wrote:
Now that the patch has more or less balanced things out (And it doesn't affect ZvT that much either, the most to suffer from it are protoss), most of the terran players are fighting Zerg & Protoss opponents that easily have twice their skill level.
ROFL. Are you saying the zerg players in GSL2 are twice the skill level of Nada in BW?
Name one zerg player in GSL2 that was twice the skill level of Nada in BW please or you just lost all credibility.
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On November 01 2010 04:37 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 22:13 Luvz wrote:On October 31 2010 Kyuki wrote:
You generalize this thread way to much, though I agree with some of what you're saying.
I personally respect BoxeR more than any other progamer besides Jaedong, but I get frustrated and annoyed when he outright QQs in official interviews. I've said why I feel that way already, and I just can't belive how people can bow down and think that everything he says would be law when it comes to a game that is 3 months old. Sure he has feelings and ideas and frustration, like all players, but he shouldnt cry about it in interviews.
Meh. Your not getting frustrated becouse hes QQing in a offical interview, your getting frustrated becouse you play Zerg and think your better then you actually are. Wonder what u posted in Dimaga's Threads and on idra's Rants about Terran prepatch. Everything boxer says should be law... LOL, Kyuki thinks he understands SC2 better than Boxer
You guys are cute, 
Top notch reading comprehension
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Just to add one thing, most people are saying that boxer is still new to sc2. But you forget that we discovered like one month ago that he not only plays the manofoneway account, but the slayers account too.
He has more games played that most other pros on the kor ladder. At the very least he is not "inexperienced".
edit :
http://sc2ranks.com/kr/1531836/ManofOneway 900 games
http://sc2ranks.com/kr/81719/SlayerS 1650 games
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On November 01 2010 03:32 TeamSoliduss wrote:It never occured to you that it could have been due to zerg players having to improve & adapt faster than other races ?
Maybe its the gamebalance that makes bad zergs beat better P/T users? seriously i didnt saw any improvement of any NA/EU Zerg, they play the same shit since beta and P/T were the 2 races that always improved and found new builds/timings. Zergs used 1hatch Queen builds (roach rush...) and started to FE during beta, then they started to mix bling busts and now they FE only. Yes they improved a lot, when sunkens were stronger they didnt build any lings and rushed to mutas, now they build at least sometimes a fighting unit while pumping drones like crazy.
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This may also be simply that TvT is Boxers best matchup, and TvZ is his weakest. Besides ro.64 has he played anything but TvT?
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On November 01 2010 04:48 StarcraftMan wrote:
ROFL. Are you saying the zerg players in GSL2 are twice the skill level of Nada in BW?
Name one zerg player in GSL2 that was twice the skill level of Nada in BW please or you just lost all credibility.
Seems to me that the guy losing all credibility is the one comparing DIFFERENT GAMES.
Also, where did I say it applied to ALL PLAYERS ? Learn to read before trying to be a smartass.
On November 01 2010 05:03 AmstAff wrote:
Maybe its the gamebalance that makes bad zergs beat better P/T users? seriously i didnt saw any improvement of any NA/EU Zerg, they play the same shit since beta and P/T were the 2 races that always improved and found new builds/timings.
Lol, yeah right. So when a notoriously overpowered race beats zergs it's because "you're all better players anyways" and when the nerfbat cracks your pseudo-skill in half it instantly becomes "imbalanced omg" ?
If you were such "awesome players" you'd still be winning by a considerable margin. Guess it's time to crash back to reality.
Seems to me some egos were hurt pretty badly by that patch.
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On November 01 2010 05:07 TeamSoliduss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 04:48 StarcraftMan wrote:
ROFL. Are you saying the zerg players in GSL2 are twice the skill level of Nada in BW?
Name one zerg player in GSL2 that was twice the skill level of Nada in BW please or you just lost all credibility.
Seems to me that the guy losing all credibility is the one comparing DIFFERENT GAMES.
Good grief. You realize that the top SC2 players right now are practically ALL FROM BW? Again, you lose more credibility!
You couldn't answer my question because there is no Zerg player in GSL2 that is TWICE the skill level of Nada.
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EPT
