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15 Posts
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
yep its broken, every zerg knows it but some wont admit it 
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You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.
Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units.
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On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.
Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units.
It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless.
You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though.
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On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
pretty sure Day9 was flamed and bashed when he did "macro oriented TvP". People posted on forums "oh my god he's losing his mind" "colossus is a must to defend rax push"
Few weeks later most protoss user start to sneak expand and pros like nexgenius do 1 gate into expand.
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On October 31 2010 18:05 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +Compare that to how a single repaired missile turret can hold off the inital wave of 7 mutas with ease. You must enjoy watching mutas wipe out 22 workers in 7 seconds while the turrets piddly missiles kill only one of them.
C'mon man, this is an easy thing to test so that you don't make a fool of yourself.
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On October 31 2010 19:55 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.
Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units. It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless. You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though.
It's not just armory/fusion core tho. Addon swapping, the cheapness of the tech lab, and the lack of more buildings like the fusion core (unit unlockers, there basically just to slow down tech), results in hyperspeed Terran teching. This forces all the units to be similar in strength, because there's no compensating factor to tech rushing for Terran (Z&P has time [spire, dark shrine being the worst offenders], and of course huge costs).
eta: incidentally this is also what caused the "Terran has too many early game options" problem. Imagine if Protoss could rush you with any of their entire friggin tech tree within 7 minutes? But of course they can't because it takes an eternity and 2 arms and a leg to get half their units out.
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On October 31 2010 20:07 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 19:55 klauz619 wrote:On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.
Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units. It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless. You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though. It's not just armory/fusion core tho. Addon swapping, the cheapness of the tech lab, and the lack of more buildings like the fusion core (unit unlockers, there basically just to slow down tech), results in hyperspeed Terran teching. This forces all the units to be similar in strength, because there's no compensating factor to tech rushing for Terran (Z&P has time [spire, dark shrine being the worst offenders], and of course huge costs).
Terrans tech fast thanks to labs and early build tech.
Their unit production speed is complete garbage though, they can't spam units so fast like protoss/zerg.
Make addons longer/more expensive and you will see 4 gating protoss have a 40 supply army vs terran's 15-20 with standard build.
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On October 31 2010 19:59 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
pretty sure Day9 was flamed and bashed when he did "macro oriented TvP". People posted on forums "oh my god he's losing his mind" "colossus is a must to defend rax push" Few weeks later most protoss user start to sneak expand and pros like nexgenius do 1 gate into expand.
Yea, it's really fun to observe.
I'm doing 15 CC into standard Marine/Tank Push into 3- or 4-base Thor Lategame vs. 1900-2100 Zergs every game and I'm winning roughly 40-50% I would say Postpatch. Sometimes I lose to early aggression, but I would always say it's my own fault and not a BO-loss.
Bunkers are damn strong against early aggression, the only BO I never won against with 15 CC against hatch before pool is 2-base baneling all-in (I think 3 hatch, not sure) without lair. That's HARD to stop, because he has so much gas and so many banelings before you have more than 1 or 2 tanks, but I think it's not impossible if you scout it early. But I don't fear mass speedling/roach with 15CC at all. 1-base baneling is also just as easy to deal with as with a normal 12 Rax build.
But actually I haven't played that much yet, so my games are no reliable data, especially as I suck. But 15 CC is far from being useless against Zerg.
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On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
Can you atleast try to argue a point? It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.
I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.
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Sensationalizing the title is honestly the last thing Teamliquid needs right now. JESUS H CHRIST!
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On October 31 2010 20:10 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 20:07 Yaotzin wrote:On October 31 2010 19:55 klauz619 wrote:On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.
Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units. It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless. You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though. It's not just armory/fusion core tho. Addon swapping, the cheapness of the tech lab, and the lack of more buildings like the fusion core (unit unlockers, there basically just to slow down tech), results in hyperspeed Terran teching. This forces all the units to be similar in strength, because there's no compensating factor to tech rushing for Terran (Z&P has time [spire, dark shrine being the worst offenders], and of course huge costs). Terrans tech fast thanks to labs and early build tech. Their unit production speed is complete garbage though, they can't spam units so fast like protoss/zerg. Make addons longer/more expensive and you will see 4 gating protoss have a 40 supply army vs terran's 15-20 with standard build.
Not sure how it would affect the usual bio openings? A bit yeah, but they only make 1-2 tech labs anyway. If it's an issue give something else to compensate. It has to be done so they can have a normal tech progression into strong units. There's no other way to make something like BCs good, because in the current system Terran would just rush to them and never look back. The only reason people don't rush straight to carriers/ultras etc and make them constantly is because they cost so friggin much to get to.
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On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs. I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.
14 hatch vs 14 cc
pool + rax finishes.
1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual.
Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished.
Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries.
Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over.
10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor.
1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army.
The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.
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On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs. I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push. 14 hatch vs 14 cc pool + rax finishes. 1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual. Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished. Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries. Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over. 10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor. 1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army. The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.
10-14 Larva of roaches is around 750-1000 mins and 250-350 gas worth of roaches. I really don't see how it's possible to have that many resources so early. Discussing openings is fine, but please don't use absurd numbers to justify any conclusions.
A more likely situation is one that factors in both queens costs, no droning and around 100-150 gas.
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On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs. I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push. 14 hatch vs 14 cc pool + rax finishes. 1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual. Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished. Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries. Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over. 10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor. 1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army. The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.
Throw an ebay before zerg FEs and delay the hatch. Now zerg can make a max of 7 units at one go.
Put those 2 marauders in a well placed bunker and they can hold off a lot of roaches. Once your army is big enough just salvage and get back those bunkers. If the zerg doesn't do enough damage with these 7 roaches he's gonna be pretty far behind econ wise.
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But I'd like to add that the new 7 roach rush all-in with queens and drones is quite abusive :S
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On October 31 2010 20:28 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs. I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push. 14 hatch vs 14 cc pool + rax finishes. 1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual. Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished. Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries. Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over. 10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor. 1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army. The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot. 10-14 Larva of roaches is around 750-1000 mins and 250-350 gas worth of roaches. I really don't see how it's possible to have that many resources so early. Discussing openings is fine, but please don't use absurd numbers to justify any conclusions. A more likely situation is one that factors in both queens costs, no droning and around 100-150 gas.
A half assed saturated 2 basing zerg has over 1000mineral income 1600 when fully saturated, 1 geyser is 100gas a minute.
while the roach warren is building(like 50 seconds) you are not really making anything other than a few drones, when that warren is finished building you can spike 1000/200+ resources into roaches.
Put those 2 marauders in a well placed bunker and they can hold off a lot of roaches.
7-12 roaches can gib a nat bunker in 2 volleys, they're not very good if not placed in a choke or have siege support.
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On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs. I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push. 14 hatch vs 14 cc pool + rax finishes. 1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual. Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished. Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries. Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over. 10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor. 1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army. The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.
You are assuming that a fast expanding terran rushes to get marauders and reactors. You cant get the gas to support that while also adding raxes which means you WILL be low on units. Don't make silly assumptions...
Just make rines, and add raxes, and bunkers, scout, respond and you're fine. If you see the roaches coming, just add more bunkers repair + profit. A zerg with no income will die within the next 5 mins.
And for the love of god - you wont get 10-14 larvaes worth of roaches at that point with a grand total of 12 drones both mining gas and minerals, because sorry to say, you cant make both drones and units from those larvae you think you've saved up to kill the Terran.
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I mean Toss can 15Nexus and add cannons as seen fit. I'm not saying it cant be broken but if you devote to all roach you're very very all in - just add cannons and pull probes.
The same logic should be able to be applied to Terran, but with marines and bunkers.
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On October 31 2010 20:32 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 20:28 Numy wrote:On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.
You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.
Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs. I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push. 14 hatch vs 14 cc pool + rax finishes. 1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual. Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished. Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries. Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over. 10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor. 1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army. The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot. 10-14 Larva of roaches is around 750-1000 mins and 250-350 gas worth of roaches. I really don't see how it's possible to have that many resources so early. Discussing openings is fine, but please don't use absurd numbers to justify any conclusions. A more likely situation is one that factors in both queens costs, no droning and around 100-150 gas. A half assed saturated 2 basing zerg has over 1000mineral income 1600 when fully saturated, 1 geyser is 100gas a minute. while the roach warren is building(like 50 seconds) you are not really making anything other than a few drones, when that warren is finished building you can spike 1000/200+ resources into roaches. Show nested quote +Put those 2 marauders in a well placed bunker and they can hold off a lot of roaches. 7-12 roaches can gib a nat bunker in 2 volleys, they're not very good if not placed in a choke or have siege support.
If you're making up numbers at least put in some fake replays so it's not completely obvious you're making that stuff up as long as nobody is watching it.
But your way to go 15 CC says everything about you. There is no worse way to go 15 CC than going TECH LAB + REACTOR after CC. What the hell, you will lose your just finished natural against 6 zerglings man. A proper way to do 15 CC is 15 CC -> 2 Rax -> immediate Bunker -> 2-3 gas, depending on what the zerg is doing you can go for another rax or factories, it's pretty dynamic after that. Bunkered marines are really good against roaches btw, you just need to be careful to repair early enough. Gas is pretty much a no go until you have 5-6 marines with 1 or 2 bunkers if there is a chance that zerg wants to put early aggression.
There is no way anyone should respond to this in a serious way without you giving us a replay. But your way to go 15 CC just made me lol, thanks for that.
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yeah I'm sure 8-9 marines instead of 3-4 marauders will do a much better job of fending off 12 roaches.
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EPT
