• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:21
CEST 04:21
KST 11:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202561RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension5
StarCraft 2
General
Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update The StarCraft 2 GOAT - An in-depth analysis The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 665 users

Boxer: might go random if Terran gets nerfed again. - Page…

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 33 Next All
nukestrikeOWNZ
Profile Joined October 2010
15 Posts
October 31 2010 10:43 GMT
#361
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

yep its broken, every zerg knows it but some wont admit it
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
October 31 2010 10:53 GMT
#362
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.

Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units.
klauz619
Profile Joined July 2010
453 Posts
October 31 2010 10:55 GMT
#363
On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.

Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units.


It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless.

You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though.
AyJay
Profile Joined April 2010
1515 Posts
October 31 2010 10:59 GMT
#364
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

pretty sure Day9 was flamed and bashed when he did "macro oriented TvP". People posted on forums "oh my god he's losing his mind" "colossus is a must to defend rax push"

Few weeks later most protoss user start to sneak expand and pros like nexgenius do 1 gate into expand.
rocketboy77
Profile Joined July 2010
171 Posts
October 31 2010 11:02 GMT
#365
On October 31 2010 18:05 klauz619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Compare that to how a single repaired missile turret can hold off the inital wave of 7 mutas with ease.


You must enjoy watching mutas wipe out 22 workers in 7 seconds while the turrets piddly missiles kill only one of them.

C'mon man, this is an easy thing to test so that you don't make a fool of yourself.
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:12:34
October 31 2010 11:07 GMT
#366
On October 31 2010 19:55 klauz619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.

Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units.


It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless.

You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though.

It's not just armory/fusion core tho. Addon swapping, the cheapness of the tech lab, and the lack of more buildings like the fusion core (unit unlockers, there basically just to slow down tech), results in hyperspeed Terran teching. This forces all the units to be similar in strength, because there's no compensating factor to tech rushing for Terran (Z&P has time [spire, dark shrine being the worst offenders], and of course huge costs).

eta: incidentally this is also what caused the "Terran has too many early game options" problem. Imagine if Protoss could rush you with any of their entire friggin tech tree within 7 minutes? But of course they can't because it takes an eternity and 2 arms and a leg to get half their units out.
klauz619
Profile Joined July 2010
453 Posts
October 31 2010 11:10 GMT
#367
On October 31 2010 20:07 Yaotzin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 19:55 klauz619 wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.

Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units.


It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless.

You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though.

It's not just armory/fusion core tho. Addon swapping, the cheapness of the tech lab, and the lack of more buildings like the fusion core (unit unlockers, there basically just to slow down tech), results in hyperspeed Terran teching. This forces all the units to be similar in strength, because there's no compensating factor to tech rushing for Terran (Z&P has time [spire, dark shrine being the worst offenders], and of course huge costs).


Terrans tech fast thanks to labs and early build tech.

Their unit production speed is complete garbage though, they can't spam units so fast like protoss/zerg.

Make addons longer/more expensive and you will see 4 gating protoss have a 40 supply army vs terran's 15-20 with standard build.

Bommes
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:17:46
October 31 2010 11:17 GMT
#368
On October 31 2010 19:59 AyJay wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

pretty sure Day9 was flamed and bashed when he did "macro oriented TvP". People posted on forums "oh my god he's losing his mind" "colossus is a must to defend rax push"

Few weeks later most protoss user start to sneak expand and pros like nexgenius do 1 gate into expand.


Yea, it's really fun to observe.
I'm doing 15 CC into standard Marine/Tank Push into 3- or 4-base Thor Lategame vs. 1900-2100 Zergs every game and I'm winning roughly 40-50% I would say Postpatch. Sometimes I lose to early aggression, but I would always say it's my own fault and not a BO-loss.
Bunkers are damn strong against early aggression, the only BO I never won against with 15 CC against hatch before pool is 2-base baneling all-in (I think 3 hatch, not sure) without lair. That's HARD to stop, because he has so much gas and so many banelings before you have more than 1 or 2 tanks, but I think it's not impossible if you scout it early. But I don't fear mass speedling/roach with 15CC at all. 1-base baneling is also just as easy to deal with as with a normal 12 Rax build.

But actually I haven't played that much yet, so my games are no reliable data, especially as I suck. But 15 CC is far from being useless against Zerg.
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:19:41
October 31 2010 11:19 GMT
#369
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

Can you atleast try to argue a point? It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.

I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.
Mada Mada Dane
ci_esteban
Profile Joined April 2010
United States217 Posts
October 31 2010 11:20 GMT
#370
Sensationalizing the title is honestly the last thing Teamliquid needs right now. JESUS H CHRIST!
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:22:35
October 31 2010 11:21 GMT
#371
On October 31 2010 20:10 klauz619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 20:07 Yaotzin wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:55 klauz619 wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:53 Yaotzin wrote:
You can't buff Terran lategame because Terran doesn't have a lategame. Even the BC, their hardest to get unit, is far quicker and cheaper to get than broodlords/ultras/carriers etc. Everything else is unlocked so fast you can do ~7 minute timing pushes with them. Pushes which most certainly cannot be allowed to be any stronger.

Terran teching speed needs to be drastically nerfed, then you can buff their later units.


It wouldn't be bad to increase armory/fusion core time if it meant thors weren't an oversized slow marine and BCs aren't completely useless.

You have to lower armory upgrades to compensate though.

It's not just armory/fusion core tho. Addon swapping, the cheapness of the tech lab, and the lack of more buildings like the fusion core (unit unlockers, there basically just to slow down tech), results in hyperspeed Terran teching. This forces all the units to be similar in strength, because there's no compensating factor to tech rushing for Terran (Z&P has time [spire, dark shrine being the worst offenders], and of course huge costs).


Terrans tech fast thanks to labs and early build tech.

Their unit production speed is complete garbage though, they can't spam units so fast like protoss/zerg.

Make addons longer/more expensive and you will see 4 gating protoss have a 40 supply army vs terran's 15-20 with standard build.


Not sure how it would affect the usual bio openings? A bit yeah, but they only make 1-2 tech labs anyway. If it's an issue give something else to compensate. It has to be done so they can have a normal tech progression into strong units. There's no other way to make something like BCs good, because in the current system Terran would just rush to them and never look back. The only reason people don't rush straight to carriers/ultras etc and make them constantly is because they cost so friggin much to get to.
klauz619
Profile Joined July 2010
453 Posts
October 31 2010 11:24 GMT
#372
On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.

I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.


14 hatch vs 14 cc
pool + rax finishes.
1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual.
Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished.
Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries.
Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over.
10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor.
1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army.

The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:30:21
October 31 2010 11:28 GMT
#373
On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.

I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.


14 hatch vs 14 cc
pool + rax finishes.
1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual.
Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished.
Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries.
Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over.
10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor.
1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army.

The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.


10-14 Larva of roaches is around 750-1000 mins and 250-350 gas worth of roaches. I really don't see how it's possible to have that many resources so early. Discussing openings is fine, but please don't use absurd numbers to justify any conclusions.

A more likely situation is one that factors in both queens costs, no droning and around 100-150 gas.
frucisky
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2170 Posts
October 31 2010 11:29 GMT
#374
On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.

I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.


14 hatch vs 14 cc
pool + rax finishes.
1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual.
Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished.
Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries.
Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over.
10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor.
1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army.

The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.


Throw an ebay before zerg FEs and delay the hatch. Now zerg can make a max of 7 units at one go.

Put those 2 marauders in a well placed bunker and they can hold off a lot of roaches. Once your army is big enough just salvage and get back those bunkers. If the zerg doesn't do enough damage with these 7 roaches he's gonna be pretty far behind econ wise.
<3 DongRaeGu <3
frucisky
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2170 Posts
October 31 2010 11:30 GMT
#375
But I'd like to add that the new 7 roach rush all-in with queens and drones is quite abusive :S
<3 DongRaeGu <3
klauz619
Profile Joined July 2010
453 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:34:34
October 31 2010 11:32 GMT
#376
On October 31 2010 20:28 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:
On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.

I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.


14 hatch vs 14 cc
pool + rax finishes.
1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual.
Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished.
Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries.
Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over.
10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor.
1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army.

The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.


10-14 Larva of roaches is around 750-1000 mins and 250-350 gas worth of roaches. I really don't see how it's possible to have that many resources so early. Discussing openings is fine, but please don't use absurd numbers to justify any conclusions.

A more likely situation is one that factors in both queens costs, no droning and around 100-150 gas.


A half assed saturated 2 basing zerg has over 1000mineral income 1600 when fully saturated, 1 geyser is 100gas a minute.

while the roach warren is building(like 50 seconds) you are not really making anything other than a few drones, when that warren is finished building you can spike 1000/200+ resources into roaches.


Put those 2 marauders in a well placed bunker and they can hold off a lot of roaches.


7-12 roaches can gib a nat bunker in 2 volleys, they're not very good if not placed in a choke or have siege support.
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:38:35
October 31 2010 11:37 GMT
#377
On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.

I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.


14 hatch vs 14 cc
pool + rax finishes.
1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual.
Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished.
Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries.
Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over.
10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor.
1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army.

The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.


You are assuming that a fast expanding terran rushes to get marauders and reactors. You cant get the gas to support that while also adding raxes which means you WILL be low on units. Don't make silly assumptions...

Just make rines, and add raxes, and bunkers, scout, respond and you're fine. If you see the roaches coming, just add more bunkers repair + profit. A zerg with no income will die within the next 5 mins.

And for the love of god - you wont get 10-14 larvaes worth of roaches at that point with a grand total of 12 drones both mining gas and minerals, because sorry to say, you cant make both drones and units from those larvae you think you've saved up to kill the Terran.
Mada Mada Dane
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
October 31 2010 11:40 GMT
#378
I mean Toss can 15Nexus and add cannons as seen fit. I'm not saying it cant be broken but if you devote to all roach you're very very all in - just add cannons and pull probes.
The same logic should be able to be applied to Terran, but with marines and bunkers.
Mada Mada Dane
Bommes
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 11:54:01
October 31 2010 11:50 GMT
#379
On October 31 2010 20:32 klauz619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 20:28 Numy wrote:
On October 31 2010 20:24 klauz619 wrote:
On October 31 2010 20:19 Kyuki wrote:
On October 31 2010 19:24 klauz619 wrote:
You can't 15 CC safely in SC2.

Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning.

You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count.

Can you atleas try to argue a point. It's not like you suddenly have a roachwarren and zerglings and queens while the command center is making. Your barracks will complete just after the spawningpool and you wont have enough initial lings to kill the terran, you need the extra larvae and you need to wait for roachwarren. You think Terran has absolutly nothing at home at the point when the roaches flood in? Remember that if you have already hatched you will be starved for money to even bust out those roaches and terran proceedes to add raxes while he pump marines bunkers up and techs.

I dont see why it shouldnt work on pretty much all maps vs 14hatch. Reason why I think 15 CC would be even stronger than a 1 rax expand for example is because you will expload faster and have a stronger and maybe even earlier timing push.


14 hatch vs 14 cc
pool + rax finishes.
1 rax makes a tech lab - 25 seconds, roach warren is making, queens are being made, droning as usual.
Marauder 1 pops out , roach warren is finished.
Terran makes 2nd barracks, queen is larva spawning 2 hatcheries.
Marauder 2 and 3 pop out as spawn larva effect is over.
10-14 larvas are now being made into roaches, will reach terran base in 1 minute. 2nd rax is making reactor.
1 minute has passed, reactor finished, 3 marines pop out from rax1. 10-14 larva worth of roaches/lings in front of terran base against a 2marauder/3marine army.

The good thing about zerg is they can just spam units in bursts much faster than either races as long as money permits it. Which is why lategame zerg, not counting auto-win ultralisk vs terran army, can just replenish their entire army within a minute, while terran cannot.


10-14 Larva of roaches is around 750-1000 mins and 250-350 gas worth of roaches. I really don't see how it's possible to have that many resources so early. Discussing openings is fine, but please don't use absurd numbers to justify any conclusions.

A more likely situation is one that factors in both queens costs, no droning and around 100-150 gas.


A half assed saturated 2 basing zerg has over 1000mineral income 1600 when fully saturated, 1 geyser is 100gas a minute.

while the roach warren is building(like 50 seconds) you are not really making anything other than a few drones, when that warren is finished building you can spike 1000/200+ resources into roaches.


Show nested quote +
Put those 2 marauders in a well placed bunker and they can hold off a lot of roaches.


7-12 roaches can gib a nat bunker in 2 volleys, they're not very good if not placed in a choke or have siege support.


If you're making up numbers at least put in some fake replays so it's not completely obvious you're making that stuff up as long as nobody is watching it.
But your way to go 15 CC says everything about you. There is no worse way to go 15 CC than going TECH LAB + REACTOR after CC. What the hell, you will lose your just finished natural against 6 zerglings man. A proper way to do 15 CC is 15 CC -> 2 Rax -> immediate Bunker -> 2-3 gas, depending on what the zerg is doing you can go for another rax or factories, it's pretty dynamic after that. Bunkered marines are really good against roaches btw, you just need to be careful to repair early enough. Gas is pretty much a no go until you have 5-6 marines with 1 or 2 bunkers if there is a chance that zerg wants to put early aggression.

There is no way anyone should respond to this in a serious way without you giving us a replay. But your way to go 15 CC just made me lol, thanks for that.
klauz619
Profile Joined July 2010
453 Posts
October 31 2010 12:33 GMT
#380
yeah I'm sure 8-9 marines instead of 3-4 marauders will do a much better job of fending off 12 roaches.
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 33 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 159
RuFF_SC2 133
NoRegreT_ 43
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4514
Sexy 49
NaDa 38
Terrorterran 20
Icarus 6
Dota 2
monkeys_forever840
LuMiX0
Counter-Strike
Fnx 2504
Stewie2K679
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King129
Other Games
summit1g12667
tarik_tv9618
shahzam666
JimRising 316
C9.Mang0213
ViBE197
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1046
BasetradeTV15
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 84
• davetesta37
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 63
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4781
• Lourlo367
• Stunt241
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
7h 40m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
11h 40m
CSO Cup
13h 40m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
15h 40m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 6h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 11h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 15h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.