EPT
Boxer: might go random if Terran gets nerfed again. - Page…
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
On October 31 2010 13:01 Kachna wrote: Nice try. You cant lower turret cost because they are also detectors. And most important: Zerg almost never have to build spore crawlers why should terran be dependant on immobile anti air defense ? By your logic how should terran move his army out of base ? Zerg never build spore crawlers because queens do a better job and serve other functions. Compare that to how a single repaired missile turret can hold off the inital wave of 7 mutas with ease. The missile turret out DPSes the spore crawler easily. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On October 31 2010 14:09 frucisky wrote: Zerg never build spore crawlers because queens do a better job and serve other functions. Compare that to how a single repaired missile turret can hold off the inital wave of 7 mutas with ease. The missile turret out DPSes the spore crawler easily. This. Also Zerg often relies on spine crawlers which cost a drone whereas Terran just makes an essentially free bunker. Terran has cheap and amazingly effective turrets as well as a t1 unit which counters mutas very well and a t2.5 (comes out at Zerg tier 2) that demolishes them in the thor. The turrets for Terrans are great but they have other options. When Z puts spore crawlers up its because there is no other solution. It costs us a drone and minerals, we aren't going to do it unless it is absolutely necessary. I had a Terran today tell me that scvs being targettable while building was horrible. The fact is as Zerg I instantly lose the drone. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On October 31 2010 13:01 MrProphylactic wrote: In one of the recent streams Day9 said that the problem isn't in the fact that Zerg was buffed a bit but that Terran now has less openings (or none) with which he can pressure the Zerg early on and stop him from getting a macro advantage and from there on it's an uphill battle. Which is true, Terran needs to pressure Zerg early in some way just as much as Zerg needs an extra base from the get go. It's not the Zerg buff that's the issue here, it's the supply depot-rax change. Good insight by Day 9 into the balance issues, On the other hand Zerg players have the benefit of keeping the same gamestyle they had before but not having to worry about early pressure. Yup. There is no early pressure from T now and when they get to mid-game, it practically becomes an auto-win for Zerg | ||
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Samus
Australia47 Posts
Everytime the zerg 2 bases and keeps that expansion or i lose mine. | ||
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Kachna
134 Posts
On October 31 2010 14:09 frucisky wrote: Zerg never build spore crawlers because queens do a better job and serve other functions. Compare that to how a single repaired missile turret can hold off the inital wave of 7 mutas with ease. The missile turret out DPSes the spore crawler easily. In large numbers mutalisks one-shot turrets or atleast kill them too fast before you can even try to repair them. | ||
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Kachna
134 Posts
On October 31 2010 14:39 Sixes wrote: This. Also Zerg often relies on spine crawlers which cost a drone whereas Terran just makes an essentially free bunker. Terran has cheap and amazingly effective turrets as well as a t1 unit which counters mutas very well and a t2.5 (comes out at Zerg tier 2) that demolishes them in the thor. The turrets for Terrans are great but they have other options. When Z puts spore crawlers up its because there is no other solution. It costs us a drone and minerals, we aren't going to do it unless it is absolutely necessary. I had a Terran today tell me that scvs being targettable while building was horrible. The fact is as Zerg I instantly lose the drone. Thors doesnt counter mutalisks that well because of magic box and countering mutas with marines is like paper against rock when is raining a LOT(banelings). Yes scvs being targettable is worse then loosing drone. Why ? Because you might loose drone but enemy cant stop building process. But when you kill scv it stops building process and delay your whole plan. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On October 31 2010 14:45 StarcraftMan wrote: Good insight by Day 9 into the balance issues, Yup. There is no early pressure from T now and when they get to mid-game, it practically becomes an auto-win for Zerg Problem is that all terrans early pressure methods are kind of cheesy, as they rely on zerg not corresponding correctly. Sure terran has some different ways of harassing, which for a long time has made it difficult for zerg to react accordingly, but lately the zerg has learned to deal with the harass, and combined with patch changes, therefore has an advantage in this MU? I really dont think that any stable openings can be explored by terran in this MU, and in the future this MU will get any worse, as zergs will make fewer and fewer mistakes. | ||
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
On October 31 2010 14:57 Kachna wrote: In large numbers mutalisks one-shot turrets or atleast kill them too fast before you can even try to repair them. I admit, your right in this regard. I don't play Terran so I don't know what Terran can do now that early harass is much less effective. But compared to the previous patch, Zerg's journey to actually start attacking by getting to tier 2 isn't a horrible journey for survival while Terran happily techs up and kills you with 2 cloaked banshees. 1 strategy that still works pretty well for Terran though, is delaying expo with a ebay at the natural. Terran then 1 rax FE-ed and followed up with a marine tank timing push before baneling speed was up. | ||
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Choirdrunk
Canada131 Posts
On October 31 2010 14:39 Sixes wrote: This. Also Zerg often relies on spine crawlers which cost a drone whereas Terran just makes an essentially free bunker. Terran has cheap and amazingly effective turrets as well as a t1 unit which counters mutas very well and a t2.5 (comes out at Zerg tier 2) that demolishes them in the thor. The turrets for Terrans are great but they have other options. When Z puts spore crawlers up its because there is no other solution. It costs us a drone and minerals, we aren't going to do it unless it is absolutely necessary. I had a Terran today tell me that scvs being targettable while building was horrible. The fact is as Zerg I instantly lose the drone. So much wrong with this analysis. It ranges from just not understanding terran to being intellectually dishonest about the advantages and disadvantages of the races. Let me go point by point. 1. Spine crawlers suck, bunkers are awesome. First, I'm tired of all this "but the bunker is free!" crap ... not only from zerg but from gold level terrans. If you spend time making a bunker, that's time a guy isn't mining. This is called an "opportunity cost" and that's not recoupable. It's probably around 50 minerals. Also, if you buy a bunker, the 100 minerals you spend is less valuable to you later, on assuming you salvage. The notion of net present value or the "time value of money" can be used here but, for people who have no idea what a financial concept is, suffice to say that SC2 is a game of limited resources. If I make X, I can't make Y (whether Y be a unit or a number of units). Y at 5 minutes is more valuable than Y at 8 minutes. For example, just for the sake of simplicity, assume Y = 2 SCVs. Even if I make them later, I still lose all 3 minutes of mining time. I can't get that back from salvage. Third, STOP ASSUMING WE CAN SALVAGE THE BUNKER. Just because we can, theoretically, salvage it doesn't mean we can always salvage it. I'd use examples but if you don't understand the difference between a theoretical opportunity and a probabilistic opportunity, I fear for our species. Even if you fail to consider/understand the ramifications of point 1 & 2, point 3 tells us that, if we ignore the concept of time, the cost of a bunker is: 100 x *probability of salvage Oh, also, a bunker is useless without units ... this increases the cost. The "cost" of the units used for the bunker is complicated mathematically, because it's predicated on in game events, but it's neither 0 nor the total cost of the units. So, basically, terran gets to spend 100 minerals on an empty box and have idiots think the cost is 0. Go go good team. I'd much rather have access to a photon cannon equivalent. A bunker is nowhere close to free. It's true cost is disguised in a way that seems to confuse a simple minded player. 2. Thors counter mutas very well. This is actually a true statement ... if the zerg is terrible. Magic box "micro" is barely a step above 1a. I don't think Boxer is matching up against a bunch of silver leaguers. 3. Zerg needs these advantages because they lose their drone. lkdjsflkdsajflkasjdflsdafjlsfajdf. The fact that zerg loses its drone is compensated for in the cheaper buildings, faster expansions and no need for a dozen production buildings. Blizzard did not overlook the fact that each race has a different opportunity cost for basic building (i.e., protoss being cheapest, zerg being most expensive). In fact, one could even say, the entire game is built around the relative capacities of the initial units. That being said, the terran who complained about the scv thing is an idiot. | ||
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r0yale
United States51 Posts
I also see many cases where the terran army is one big blob of units, usually with frantic micro during fights, where a different approach would be more optimal(i.e. 2 pronged attack, diversion, feint etc). I'm no pro player but I am great at observing and planning. Overall I haven't been disappointed by any of the three races(<3 warp prism), only by the game engine and often times sluggish controls. That and the single player campaign was total bullshit shortness. | ||
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SC2Syndicate
United States134 Posts
I honestly think putting roach range back to the fair range would possibly fix the entire current imbalance. If boxer and nada say Z is imbalanced its true no doubts they don't make excuses unless its realistic. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On October 31 2010 14:45 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup. There is no early pressure from T now and when they get to mid-game, it practically becomes an auto-win for Zerg -.- I guess if it makes you feel better about losing to Z's, keep thinking that they're getting these free 'auto-wins' instead of simply outplaying you. ZvT is nowhere near broken and far better than it was a couple of months ago. Signed, Protoss | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On October 31 2010 11:07 Kachna wrote: Just because you have to inject larva every 1 minute doesnt mean you have right to call all terran wins before patch "free ride". Suddenly game changed from 1a bioball to 1a banelings with uncounterable mutalisks. Agree. Terran has to constantly check every 17 seconds for worker production too, if they want to they can queue 2 and check every 34 second compared to zerg 40 second, you can't queue too many because that will sacrifice your economy. You can argue that Terran has easier way to check (press 5 and see if your cc is building scv or not), but the point is, if you remember that you have to do it, you can do it. It doesn't matter if Terran has to click 5 S S, or Zerg has to click on the queen and V the lair. If you don't remember it, don't QQ, blame it on yourself. I'm tired of diamond Zerg who have only 60 apm and constantly QQ about everything. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
On October 31 2010 17:15 canikizu wrote: Agree. Terran has to constantly check every 17 seconds for worker production too, if they want to they can queue 2 and check every 34 second compared to zerg 40 second, you can't queue too many because that will sacrifice your economy. You can argue that Terran has easier way to check (press 5 and see if your cc is building scv or not), but the point is, if you remember that you have to do it, you can do it. It doesn't matter if Terran has to click 5 S S, or Zerg has to click on the queen and V the lair. If you don't remember it, don't QQ, blame it on yourself. I'm tired of diamond Zerg who have only 60 apm and constantly QQ about everything. I agree, I can't see how players find the larva mechanic hard. To me it's just like making scv's constantly. It's just something you do, wich you wont forgot. Ok, in a fight I might botch is sometimes. | ||
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klauz619
453 Posts
Compare that to how a single repaired missile turret can hold off the inital wave of 7 mutas with ease. You must enjoy watching mutas wipe out 22 workers in 7 seconds while the turrets piddly missiles kill only one of them. | ||
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nukestrikeOWNZ
15 Posts
What boxer/nada say should be taken as dogma ! | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On October 31 2010 18:16 nukestrikeOWNZ wrote: the biggest problem is that zerg has now free expo and terran has almost no way to punish it, all zerg needs to do is make expo, 2 spine crawlers, couple of roaches and then mass mutas contain terran on 2 bases and just write gg, Sadly, that is the standard Zerg strat because there is no risk for Zerg to FE. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On October 31 2010 13:01 Kachna wrote: Nice try. You cant lower turret cost because they are also detectors. And most important: Zerg almost never have to build spore crawlers why should terran be dependant on immobile anti air defense ? By your logic how should terran move his army out of base ? You ever even watched a pro BW TvZ? Jesus... When people come with suggestions as to what might be wrong with the approach there is always someone who puts on the designer hat and says "It shouldnt be that way!" Just fucking deal with it and _MAKE IT WORK_. BoxeR changed his bloody race in BW because of how the reaver got nerfed btw. Scarabs could suddenly miss which implemented randomness to the terrible terrible damage the reaver dealt. At this time the Terran dropship got a movement buff and BoxeR changed his race and applied his awesomeness to Terran instead. Nothing wrong with this since back then it had to do with style and his own values, but this time he QQs and I think it sucks... It does not fit his image at all, and it hurts the community when top players do this QQing - the swinging in opinions are fucking horrible :s Do it behind the scene only imo, and if there is something wrong then the communication you have with blizzard will help the games development into beeing more balanced without having the community go into rage everytime.. I've been wondering why Terrans doesnt just do more 15CC and move out with a huge tank/marine army before mutas gets to big or banelingspeed is done. And as soon as Terrans incorporate more Ravens into their play, their lategame will be much stronger. Scout during depot and you will have time to wall off with a late rax if it's some early cheese coming. a 14/15 hatch can't stop a 15 CC. | ||
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klauz619
453 Posts
Zerg 14 can 14hatch then suddenly burst 10larvas worth of zerglings/roaches and run over you instead of droning. You can't do the same because your weakass earlygame marines pop out every 25 seconds per barracks(you'll have what? 2 rax and if you're lucky a non-addon factory at this stage?) not counting the 25/50 second addon count. | ||
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