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On October 31 2010 08:37 Dfgj wrote:
To be fair, what exactly are the reasons for that?
I'm absolutely confident facing Terrans (as P), for instance, but that's more due to having played a lot of the MU comparatively and being very familiar with the very standard straight-up play of most ladder terrans. But watching some of the high-level Terrans multitask rather than 1a makes me want to hide under my bed.
Mostly because of lack of early reaper pressure and no one really doing hellion harrass early. I typically fear banshees, but usually get another queen for creap spread anyway.
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On October 31 2010 05:52 apmspam wrote:
yea, terran has been nerfed into nothing, the seige tank is cost-ineffective. I agree with boxer, but ive already switched to zerg myself, following the likes the TLO, kawaiirice
You mean all the players who used to have a free ride with terran painfully realized they weren't as good as their OP race lead them to believe ?
Funny how certain players are always hyped no matter what happens, even when their race switch ends up in them getting completely steamrolled by players they used to beat by 1a-ing their bioball heh ?
As much as I hate the guy you gotta give IdrA or Fruit points for sticking to their guns while the others hop on the bandwagon.
Yeah yeah of course I'm sure they can all offer dozens of fanboy-proof arguments to defend their "sudden change of heart".
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On October 31 2010 08:46 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
if terran gets another nerf ima change or just stop playing this game i sound like a QQ noob but seriously in the start of this game i had so much fun choosing bettwen like 5-7 different type of builds now its just marine and marauder for protoss and thor and marines for zerg and tanks and viking for terran idc terran is becoming the new zerg
See I can agree with you here. If terran does get nerfed again that would be dumb. Terran definitely does not need more nerfs. If there is another nerf to terrans then I can agree with people complaining about terran nerfs.
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On October 31 2010 09:02 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 08:46 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
if terran gets another nerf ima change or just stop playing this game i sound like a QQ noob but seriously in the start of this game i had so much fun choosing bettwen like 5-7 different type of builds now its just marine and marauder for protoss and thor and marines for zerg and tanks and viking for terran idc terran is becoming the new zerg See I can agree with you here. If terran does get nerfed again that would be dumb. Terran definitely does not need more nerfs. If there is another nerf to terrans then I can agree with people complaining about terran nerfs.
There will be another Terran nerf. Possibly an increase in price for stimpack.
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What's wrong with advocating for the race that you play? Boxer is representing the interest of the race he is associated with just like the president of the United States representing the interest of the Americans. Some of the responses here are so idiotic that I can only excuse those behaviors as regular internet trolling.
One thing I will point out however is that there is no sign of Terran being OP at this time and need any type of additional nerfing whatsoever. So if Blizzard nerfs Terran again in the near future, they better have a very very good reason to back it up.
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On October 31 2010 09:13 dukethegold wrote:
One thing I will point out however is that there is no sign of Terran being OP at this time and need any type of additional nerfing whatsoever. So if Blizzard nerfs Terran again in the near future, they better have a very very good reason to back it up.
Funny how terrans were already spewing that BEFORE the patch.
According to you guys terran wouldn't be overpowered even if thors had 50 range and 30k HP...
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On October 31 2010 09:16 TeamSoliduss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 09:13 dukethegold wrote:
One thing I will point out however is that there is no sign of Terran being OP at this time and need any type of additional nerfing whatsoever. So if Blizzard nerfs Terran again in the near future, they better have a very very good reason to back it up.
Funny how terrans were already spewing that BEFORE the patch. According to you guys terran wouldn't be overpowered even if thors had 50 range and 30k HP...
You are trolling, putting words into our mouths.
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On October 31 2010 09:18 dukethegold wrote:
You are trolling, putting words into our mouths.
Not really, did you miss out the hundreds of posts on all imaginable forums the past few months saying that "it was perfectly balanced and zergs should l2p instead of complaining" ?
Then as soon as the nerbat cracks the artificial skill level (an egos) of an ENORMOUS segment of the Terran populace, you see posts pop all over the damn place about how "terran is too nerfed and other races are imbalanced".
What should the Protoss say then ? They're the one who have been getting it the hardest and guess what, they actually had to IMPROVE. Just laddering for a few hours will confirm that currently there are 4 main types of players, random joes aside :
- Very good protoss players. You'll find that most people having protoss as their main race have a skill level far superior to a vast majority of T and Z alike. (I play Z so forget I'm sharpening my ego)
- Reformed FOTM terrans trying to play zerg and failing miserably because they have zero clue about how to really play besides turtling and 1a-ing. Most of them can't do much more than ling/bling or 1 base roach spam.
- People who sticked with terran and are actually trying to improve, even if the matches have become more difficult.
- People who sticked with zerg all along, had to get better than most terrans to overcome their previously overpowered units and who are now steamrolling most of them, just as terrans did before except this time it isn't an imbalance issue, it's a skill level issue.
Of course, lots of QQ ensues from the Ts. "Like wtf I can't just turtle up and 1a to win anymore ? WTFF!!!!!!"
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On October 31 2010 09:02 TeamSoliduss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 05:52 apmspam wrote:
yea, terran has been nerfed into nothing, the seige tank is cost-ineffective. I agree with boxer, but ive already switched to zerg myself, following the likes the TLO, kawaiirice You mean all the players who used to have a free ride with terran painfully realized they weren't as good as their OP race lead them to believe ?
This is all it is. They finally aren't grossly OP and now think they are UP because they are playing people 1000 pts better then them.
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On October 31 2010 09:31 QkDown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 09:02 TeamSoliduss wrote:On October 31 2010 05:52 apmspam wrote:
yea, terran has been nerfed into nothing, the seige tank is cost-ineffective. I agree with boxer, but ive already switched to zerg myself, following the likes the TLO, kawaiirice You mean all the players who used to have a free ride with terran painfully realized they weren't as good as their OP race lead them to believe ? This is all it is. They finally aren't grossly OP and now think they are UP because they are playing people 1000 pts better then them.
ahhahahahaha i love how ppl that dont play terran thinks they must play so much better to win
must be the hundreds of threads they read here that leads them to believe their P/Z is UP
these players are blinded by their own ignorance, while facts are facts, terran is at a disadvantage whether in macro or units late game, and cannot compete evenly against P/Z, while the early game advantage terrans get is not worth the late game disadvantages
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im random, gg scrub
User was warned for this post
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On October 31 2010 09:02 TeamSoliduss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 05:52 apmspam wrote:
yea, terran has been nerfed into nothing, the seige tank is cost-ineffective. I agree with boxer, but ive already switched to zerg myself, following the likes the TLO, kawaiirice You mean all the players who used to have a free ride with terran painfully realized they weren't as good as their OP race lead them to believe ? Funny how certain players are always hyped no matter what happens, even when their race switch ends up in them getting completely steamrolled by players they used to beat by 1a-ing their bioball heh ? As much as I hate the guy you gotta give IdrA or Fruit points for sticking to their guns while the others hop on the bandwagon. Yeah yeah of course I'm sure they can all offer dozens of fanboy-proof arguments to defend their "sudden change of heart".
Just because you have to inject larva every 1 minute doesnt mean you have right to call all terran wins before patch "free ride". Suddenly game changed from 1a bioball to 1a banelings with uncounterable mutalisks.
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I think the game is FAR more balanced now than it was at release. That being said, I do feel that Terrans have to far out micro a zerg during late game conflicts involving banelings. But, there is no Terran equivalent for the APM necessary for good muta harass. Hellion run-bys and banshees require attention for 30-40 seconds where as muta harass does typically less actual damage if the Terran prepares for it and takes many minutes of constant attention.
Still, I feel that Terrans are having a rough time trying to deal with the baneling which is a VERY easy unit to use after getting the speed upgrade. If players like Boxer keep complaining over the next week or so, I'm willing to consider Terran a little UP
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On October 31 2010 11:07 Kachna wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 09:02 TeamSoliduss wrote:On October 31 2010 05:52 apmspam wrote:
yea, terran has been nerfed into nothing, the seige tank is cost-ineffective. I agree with boxer, but ive already switched to zerg myself, following the likes the TLO, kawaiirice You mean all the players who used to have a free ride with terran painfully realized they weren't as good as their OP race lead them to believe ? Funny how certain players are always hyped no matter what happens, even when their race switch ends up in them getting completely steamrolled by players they used to beat by 1a-ing their bioball heh ? As much as I hate the guy you gotta give IdrA or Fruit points for sticking to their guns while the others hop on the bandwagon. Yeah yeah of course I'm sure they can all offer dozens of fanboy-proof arguments to defend their "sudden change of heart". Just because you have to inject larva every 1 minute doesnt mean you have right to call all terran wins before patch "free ride". Suddenly game changed from 1a bioball to 1a banelings with uncounterable mutalisks.
Mutalisks are not uncounterable. Players are just showing really BAD anti muta micro. The huge reluctance of Terrans to build a few more turrets and to TERRIBLE stim timing of some of the GSL contenders make Mutas look OP. Give it a little more time, and some Terran will show everyone how to defend mutas. IF mutas are OP, all that would need to change is to lower the turret cost by a tiny bit
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Just wanted to throw in my two cents :
I have heard a lot of debating , and pseudo-debating , going on , and some statistics , also contrived stats as well .
HOWEVER , I do not recall anyone bringing map balance into the equation . E.g When contrasting these win losses in the GSL between these various pro's , it may be a little helpful; to also note and graph what maps they are playing on , as maps add alot of balance to the game . So map features can add , take balance from the game . That is ti say instead of altering units , map features can also be employed or removed .
Just a thought
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On October 31 2010 11:37 Beef Noodles wrote:
I think the game is FAR more balanced now than it was at release. That being said, I do feel that Terrans have to far out micro a zerg during late game conflicts involving banelings. But, there is no Terran equivalent for the APM necessary for good muta harass. Hellion run-bys and banshees require attention for 30-40 seconds where as muta harass does typically less actual damage if the Terran prepares for it and takes many minutes of constant attention.
Still, I feel that Terrans are having a rough time trying to deal with the baneling which is a VERY easy unit to use after getting the speed upgrade. If players like Boxer keep complaining over the next week or so, I'm willing to consider Terran a little UP
One of the better written posts
On another note , Its good to see some actually critically thinking , and not getting sucked into flame wars
Alot of other good posts to , but dont have time to respond to them all 
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On October 31 2010 11:39 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 11:07 Kachna wrote:On October 31 2010 09:02 TeamSoliduss wrote:On October 31 2010 05:52 apmspam wrote:
yea, terran has been nerfed into nothing, the seige tank is cost-ineffective. I agree with boxer, but ive already switched to zerg myself, following the likes the TLO, kawaiirice You mean all the players who used to have a free ride with terran painfully realized they weren't as good as their OP race lead them to believe ? Funny how certain players are always hyped no matter what happens, even when their race switch ends up in them getting completely steamrolled by players they used to beat by 1a-ing their bioball heh ? As much as I hate the guy you gotta give IdrA or Fruit points for sticking to their guns while the others hop on the bandwagon. Yeah yeah of course I'm sure they can all offer dozens of fanboy-proof arguments to defend their "sudden change of heart". Just because you have to inject larva every 1 minute doesnt mean you have right to call all terran wins before patch "free ride". Suddenly game changed from 1a bioball to 1a banelings with uncounterable mutalisks. Mutalisks are not uncounterable. Players are just showing really BAD anti muta micro. The huge reluctance of Terrans to build a few more turrets and to TERRIBLE stim timing of some of the GSL contenders make Mutas look OP. Give it a little more time, and some Terran will show everyone how to defend mutas. IF mutas are OP, all that would need to change is to lower the turret cost by a tiny bit
Nice try. You cant lower turret cost because they are also detectors.
And most important: Zerg almost never have to build spore crawlers why should terran be dependant on immobile anti air defense ? By your logic how should terran move his army out of base ?
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[QUOTE]In one of the recent streams Day9 said that the problem isn't in the fact that Zerg was buffed a bit but that Terran now has less openings (or none) with which he can pressure the Zerg early on and stop him from getting a macro advantage and from there on it's an uphill battle. Which is true, Terran needs to pressure Zerg early in some way just as much as Zerg needs an extra base from the get go.
It's not the Zerg buff that's the issue here, it's the supply depot-rax change.
It's difficult to say if that makes them UP in the matchup (most likely they just need to find new ways to deal with things) but it is true that top Terrans who are currently participating in the GSL (Boxer included) were pushed into a position where they need to radically change their gameplay against Zerg with little time to practice and even less time to experiment.
On the other hand Zerg players have the benefit of keeping the same gamestyle they had before but not having to worry about early pressure.
So yeah, Terrans are struggling vs Zerg, it's just not clear if it's balance or they need to time to modify their gameplay.[quote]
I really like the logic in this post as well . So i guess i had to throw in my four cents .
Edit . Tried to clean this posts up . and screwed the quotes all up , and I cannot remember his handle to give him credit . 
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On October 31 2010 00:30 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 00:24 mols0n wrote:
This is how i see the balance issues right now
Early game(strongest to weakest)
Terran
Protoss
Zerg
Midgame
Protoss
Terran
Zerg
Lategame
Zerg
Protoss
Big Gap
Terran Once the other races learn to macro more bases faster itll be more balanced. Like nada said you need to be equal bases against zerg to have a chance, which makes sense. two terran bases= to 4 zerg bases doesn't sound like it would make the most sense.
This is grossly wrong. Zerg race was built to expand easily.
Cost of drone: 50
Cost of Hatchery: 300
Cost of Queen: 150
Cost of expansion: 500
Now with that you get the ability to ramp up your drone production... a LOT and you also get all the production facilities you need.
But for a Terran... You have to put down 400 on the CC, and then 150 on the OC, and then you have to put down buildings so you can ramp up your production. That can cost anywhere from 450/300 to 450/150
Total cost of expansion: 1000/150.
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On October 31 2010 13:32 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 00:30 raf3776 wrote:On October 31 2010 00:24 mols0n wrote:
This is how i see the balance issues right now
Early game(strongest to weakest)
Terran
Protoss
Zerg
Midgame
Protoss
Terran
Zerg
Lategame
Zerg
Protoss
Big Gap
Terran Once the other races learn to macro more bases faster itll be more balanced. Like nada said you need to be equal bases against zerg to have a chance, which makes sense. two terran bases= to 4 zerg bases doesn't sound like it would make the most sense. This is grossly wrong. Zerg race was built to expand easily. Cost of drone: 50 Cost of Hatchery: 300 Cost of Queen: 150 Cost of expansion: 500 Now with that you get the ability to ramp up your drone production... a LOT and you also get all the production facilities you need. But for a Terran... You have to put down 400 on the CC, and then 150 on the OC, and then you have to put down buildings so you can ramp up your production. That can cost anywhere from 450/300 to 450/150 Total cost of expansion: 1000/150.
there is an intelligent thought behind your comparison, but you dont account for the fact that a hatchery can either make workers or warriors or supply. this makes the comparison alot more complicated.
to keep it simple and general I would just state that zerg has the possibility to get the most efficient economy going and has the possibility to get the fastest army production going. but never both at the same time.
and I am pretty sure that the terrans will find new ways to put on good pressure to account for that. there are a few very good examples in the GSL. in the leenok vs nada games or fake vs fruitdealer.
Iam pretty sure that alot of terrans will slowly drop in their winning rates because of the recent changes, but the only reason behind this is the fact that they had a too easy matchup for a long time.
I dont know what to think of boxers statement. well if it shows something, then the fact that he really loves to win
and I would actually looooove to see boxer playing random. if it is possible for him to do that in tournaments then it would definitely fit him stylewise to play all the races.
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EPT
