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On November 11 2010 10:33 Grond wrote:
VR is pretty much useless now. Blizzard has proven multiple times that they can't balance the charge mechanic. They need to remove charge completely and rebalance the unit.
I agree, with you blizzard had no fear of scraping and reworking mechanics before release but after release they wont do that. they could easily change the mechanic to be something like no charge just damage changing depending on the unit:
small beam 5 base damage.
medium beam 5 (+ 5 vs armored).
large beam 5 (+20 vs massive).
or more easily explained as 5 damage (10 vs armored 25 vs massive)
that way it serves a role as an anti capital ship that protoss desperately needs and is still balanced vs everything else. it also makes sense that the pilot would gauge how much juice is necessary by the size of the unit. the damage amount is just an example don't get fixated on that.
or something like an activated ability that causes the voidray to be immobile and shield-less for a certain period of time but gains full charge (the old damage) for "x" amount of time which would promote the old hit and run style again. though i prefer the first method.
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It's quite enlightening to find out 20 seconds is where the differences start for new and old void rays. I still prefer the older void rays though
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There was no problem with the previous VRs. Yes it was quite powerful with a few number but what do you expect for an expect for an expensive air unit that takes time to charge?
The only part I disliked about VRs was that they came out too early; P needs to build something besides Stargate to start massing them. This is coming from a Terran player. The Void Ray nerf was really unjustified.
I feel like Blizzard listened to the Terran players who screamed about VRs (even though VRs were fine) and did not listen to the Protoss players who screamed about Marauders (Marauders were a problem since the dawn of time). Well technically they "nerfed" Marauders by giving it a 50/50 research for concussive...but that 50/50 is a cheap price and after the research is done, Marauders go back to their flawed self.
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On October 28 2010 07:59 roliax wrote:
Ok so we all know the void ray was "nerfed" in the last patch. But I've been trying so hard to explain why it isn't a true nerf to all my noobie friends but alas to no avail. Finally, the caster Crota was nice and smart enough to create a chart and video to explain this nerf/buff simultaneous phonemenom.
Only a mentally Handicapped person or someone who has never used the void rays would call it a buff. they almost always were charged up when fighting important units and they used mostly to attack buildings when no troops near or when they get there to get killed.
You are either a really stupid person or never used void rays on the first place!
User was temp banned for this post.
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Being made of glass and not being comparable to it's old self in terms of fighting capabilities, I feel it should have its range and armor back.
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I don't know why there's so much complaining about Void Rays. They still are quite nice to open up with PvT to get an expansion up and contain Terran, possibly even kill him if he's playing greedy.
Their "ball" effect in late game, particularly against Terran was a little bit absurd. Now this gives us a reason to get Carriers, which I'm happy about. Also the level 1 damage for Void Rays is better and that can be used for some new things (much easier to snipe overlords now).
As far as the nerfed damage on the level 2, it's still good but again not so ridiculously broken that you always choose it over Carriers.
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It's a significant nerf, not only to overall damage (the spreadsheet assuming people used to start the battle with them without charge, considering how low the damage was then, is um... not an entirely valid assumption)
Even if you (for whatever reason!) play the way the spreadsheet assumes, they've nerfed you too, by making it virtually impossible to charge in battle against a typical ground ball. It takes literally every tick of a marauder's health bar to charge a void ray, and if you happen to have more than one, or (god forbid) a gateway army also in the fight, you'll find the voids almost impossible to charge because no single unit survives long enough. You can't even use single-target micro to prevent this, since their 'move and attack' mechanic will cause them to switch targets whenever their specified target retreats, even by a single hex out of their normal 6....
Watch the NEXGenius vs HopeTorture game on Lost Temple in the GSL. At the end, NEX is using voids as part of his main deathball vs the entire terran army, and the majority of them never manage to charge up at all....
Edit: even saying that they have been nerfed significantly (and really, there's no doubt about it), they do have marginally more utility than they did before, and before they were imba at full charge... so I can't say it was a totally bad change. The problem now is, their whole unique mechanic is pretty worthless. I don't really care if my voids are charged or not when I'm using them. It used to matter a great deal...
Imagine if as a Terran you didn't really care if your tanks were sieged or not, it didn't feel like it made a gamechanging difference either way... wouldn't you be a bit disappointed?
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On November 11 2010 18:12 Tump wrote:
I don't know why there's so much complaining about Void Rays. They still are quite nice to open up with PvT to get an expansion up and contain Terran, possibly even kill him if he's playing greedy.
Their "ball" effect in late game, particularly against Terran was a little bit absurd. Now this gives us a reason to get Carriers, which I'm happy about. Also the level 1 damage for Void Rays is better and that can be used for some new things (much easier to snipe overlords now).
As far as the nerfed damage on the level 2, it's still good but again not so ridiculously broken that you always choose it over Carriers.
Open up PvT with Void Rays? - Marines will decimate them.
So, we will use Carriers more, because they dont suck as much as the void ray?
- I think I will just go for a better tech path
Why snipe overlords with Void Rays when you can do it with pheonixes?
Why even bother with the Stargate? - The reason we didn't get carriers was not because Void Rays were so much better, it was because Carriers sucked.
Theres barly much of a difference, it should be noticably more dangerous with charged void rays - now its just /care
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On October 28 2010 08:08 travis wrote:
given the role void rays were playing, the niche they had
it's a massive nerf
void rays were most effective by putting them in battle, already charged up or charging up, and then keeping them charged doing massive damage
now.. all that time they are fully charged.. you're doing way less damage.
void rays can no longer decimate an opponent's base like they used to.
think about how void rays were used. was it ever remotely ideal to "hit and run" with void rays?
(note, im not trying to complain... im just saying that their niche has changed... and im concerned that they don't really have a functional role anymore)
I totally agree, normally they were usefull in sniping buildings when your opponents were out their base.. now they can't even kill a supply depot in a reasonable time...
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Void rays are more useful now than they were before. If you're complaining that you can't hide VRs and autowin if they're not scouted or that they can't kill buildings fast enough now, I feel that your skill level is displayed as low through that opinion. Void rays still kill buildings very fast and the change just makes them more viable in multiple scenarios and probably the more intended scenario by blizzard, to use them to strengthen an army composition.
Previously VRs were either an all in or entirely useless unless you had a good way to charge them meaning they had a limited, very specific use. The dps is clearly lower at charge now, but they're so much more useful now and blend in much better into sc2 as a game now. Since now, you can use them as part of your army to force more anti-air units then while you destroy buildings they get stronger making it harder to approach your army until charge is dead. My opinion is P players should like it more now since it's more versatile as a unit even though it's not as destructive at charge.
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Void Rays are now more difficult to deal with at the start but still manageable when fully charged.
A quick poke is now generally more deadly because you can do more damage before you have to move away.
My Vikings against Flux Vane VRs are having a harder time when the VRs manage to nudge into range before the Vikings fly off, but they're no longer impossible to bring down once they are charged.
Generally though I never had significant issues with VRs, Marines and Vikings deal with them quite readily both pre and post patch.
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well but 25 dmg on charged vr feels a bit low, i do admit that 40 was pretty sick but from 40 to 25 it feels huge
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Also I have a question to You and if You or somebody else who know the numbers could answer me I would be thankful.
In current patch, with no damage upgrades, the damage is as follows:
L1 = 6 +4 to armored
L2 = 6 +4 to armored
L3 = 8 +8 to armored
(I figured it out out of the chart in the vid)
But how exactly does it change for +1 air, for +2 air, for +3 air? heard somewhere than +1 gives a difference so that L2 has higher damage than L1.
If somebody could clearly answer what is the damage on each level for each damage upgrade, it would be great.
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And yeah, VR doesnt seem like a real counter to BCs, Carriers - perhaps yes, Brood Lords - You do well enough with just Blink Stalkers.
There could be higher damage to massive next to current damage to light/armored.
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The only people who think void rays are useful now are the terran and zerg players posting on this thread... you know who you are.
And to whoever said void rays kill buildings fast now... do you even PLAY protoss?
PLEASE. before you post up saying "OH VOID RAY IS OKAY STOP COMPLAINING", how about you
1. PLAY protoss
2. TRY to win with a VR composition more than 50% of the time, and THEN tell us about it.
If scouted, VRs are a dead end. No, that's incorrect.
They're a goddamn chainball of lost mineral/gas investments helping you to drown in the sea of lings/roaches/MMM/vikings/and every other goddamn unit...
-___-
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On November 11 2010 20:34 kidd wrote:
Void rays are more useful now than they were before. If you're complaining that you can't hide VRs and autowin if they're not scouted or that they can't kill buildings fast enough now, I feel that your skill level is displayed as low through that opinion. Void rays still kill buildings very fast and the change just makes them more viable in multiple scenarios and probably the more intended scenario by blizzard, to use them to strengthen an army composition.
Previously VRs were either an all in or entirely useless unless you had a good way to charge them meaning they had a limited, very specific use. The dps is clearly lower at charge now, but they're so much more useful now and blend in much better into sc2 as a game now. Since now, you can use them as part of your army to force more anti-air units then while you destroy buildings they get stronger making it harder to approach your army until charge is dead. My opinion is P players should like it more now since it's more versatile as a unit even though it's not as destructive at charge.
Voidrays are terrible as a part of a main army, they are expensive, fragile and are terribly cost efficient. The fact that you need to get Stargate tech to get them doesn't help.
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I don't like the direction blizzard is pushing the void ray, considering that void rays still do not counter the units they were intended to counter.
Like it or not, void rays are a T2 unit made to counter T3 units. It doesn't have to make sense, but that's what their charge up mechanic was made to do. They end up ineffective because they always get swarmed by T1 and T2 units! The nerf to structure killing doesn't help, as that was one of their few good uses mid game.
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Why does everyone care so much about the counter list? I mean sheesh, it's not like banelings do very well against zealots, or roaches do particularly well against marines. Hell, I've killed colossi with zerglings cost efficiently.
When talking about cost efficiency, Void Rays were always a glass cannon unit. They are good when units aren't attacking them, like mutalisks. That has always been true even before the change. Its just that now they actually require some support to make work, rather than just soloing into the fray as cheese.
I'm sorry, I've seen much more standard void ray play now that its been changed. Not fancy cheese or proxying, but normal void ray play, as part of an army. Before the patch, I never saw this. That's all I'm sayin'. Void Rays were stupid before the patch.
small beam 5 base damage.
medium beam 5 (+ 5 vs armored).
large beam 5 (+20 vs massive).
Uhm. This makes the void ray possibly one of the most boring, uninteresting units in the game.
That's like balancing reapers by removing the jumping mechanic and the +damage to buildings.
Voidrays are terrible as a part of a main army, they are expensive, fragile and are terribly cost efficient. The fact that you need to get Stargate tech to get them doesn't help.
Mutalisks are also expensive, fragile, and terribly cost efficient but are one of the best units in the game. They require tech that takes a long time to build so its easy to scout, and is one of our most expensive tech buildings. Going to have to try harder than that.
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The voidray is the highest DPS FOR FOOD unit in the game. that is a strong niche to have.
Ok well it may not be true  I read that somewhere and it sounded true enough. I would love for someone to correct me with proof.
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On November 11 2010 21:00 andrewwiggin wrote:
The only people who think void rays are useful now are the terran and zerg players posting on this thread... you know who you are.
And to whoever said void rays kill buildings fast now... do you even PLAY protoss?
PLEASE. before you post up saying "OH VOID RAY IS OKAY STOP COMPLAINING", how about you
1. PLAY protoss
2. TRY to win with a VR composition more than 50% of the time, and THEN tell us about it.
If scouted, VRs are a dead end. No, that's incorrect.
They're a goddamn chainball of lost mineral/gas investments helping you to drown in the sea of lings/roaches/MMM/vikings/and every other goddamn unit...
You know who plays Protoss really, really well?
Plexa.
You know what Plexa thinks the future of lategame PvZ is?
Speed Rays
From his (extremely awesome) PvZ guide on the strat forums (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992):
Okay so once you scout that he's going hive you need to decide on what Late game unit composition you want to strive for. Really, there are only two options - Void Rays or Immortals. Immortals hard counter Ultralisks so if you know your Zerg opponent is going to go Ultralisks, slap down 3 robos and pump immortals, research charge, and mass Zealots. If you were using the IST unit composition keep making Templar and cease Stalker production. If you were using the CSS unit composition, try not to lose Colossus and cease Stalker/Sentry production - consider mixing in DTs if possible. Ultimately though, I feel that Immortals are not flexible enough for the late game since a good Zerg should switch back to Mutalisks or Hydralisks and roflstomp your late game army - plus immortals suck against Broodlords for obvious reasons.
2 Stargate VoidRay, however, is the future of PvZ late game in my humble opinion. Hasuobs was the first to really use this in high pressure situations, as far as I can recall. Of course I am referring to his Go4SC2 Final against Haypro, in particular his game on Lost Temple. Void Rays, or rather, Speed Rays are incredible late game units for the following reasons
- Zerg has nothing good to kill them with (muta expensive, corruptor lol, hydras die to everything)
- They do full damage to Ultra and Broods
- Are really useful against both Broods and Ultras
- Speedrays are amazing harass tools (can shut down expos, kill drones, tech etc)
- They force hydras/mutas which are both gas intensive, the zerg wants to be spending that gas on ultra or BL
To top it all off, they complement a CSS or IST army really well independently of late game so around 150 food you can slap down two stargates and pump Voids without worrying about whether they will be countered by something (because there isn't an excellent counter to them!). If the Zerg is going Ultra, cut Stalkers and add Zealots and if he's going Broods continue the Stalker production. Also, getting speed unlocks the mighty Mothership. Laugh all you want at how useless you think it is, but getting a Mothership forces the Zerg to either
a) target fire the Mothership before killing your army (i.e. a 400/400 PDD which has vortex)
b) Get overseers (which is annoying)
In either case the Mothership augments the power of your Zealot/Colossus/Stalker/Void Ray or Zealot/Stalker/Immortal/Templar/Void Ray ball tenfold. It can make all the difference in a 200/200 fight, trust me.
Void Rays are far from useless
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EPT
