EPT1.1.2 void ray vs 1.1.1 void ray damage
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roliax
135 Posts
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Incarnite
Macedonia117 Posts
HOWEVER, who was indeed silly enough not to pre charge void rays off destructibles, refineries, proxy pylons etc... So yes, those things that we normally pre charged off do go down faster (hahaha) but the army/structures that void rays REALLY want to engage AFTER they have their charge will have a lot easier time. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
it's a massive nerf void rays were most effective by putting them in battle, already charged up or charging up, and then keeping them charged doing massive damage now.. all that time they are fully charged.. you're doing way less damage. void rays can no longer decimate an opponent's base like they used to. think about how void rays were used. was it ever remotely ideal to "hit and run" with void rays? (note, im not trying to complain... im just saying that their niche has changed... and im concerned that they don't really have a functional role anymore) | ||
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Nagano
United States1157 Posts
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Tropics
United Kingdom1132 Posts
and personally id much rather have something that tickles their army and then explodes with a million damage over something that does barely above shitty damage consistently | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:08 Nagano wrote: Gotta love Crota, and just people in general who contribute in a meaningful way to SC2 discourse. I don't think this is really that meaningful at all since it doesn't really take into account how VR's were actually used in real game scenarios. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:08 travis wrote: given the role void rays were playing, the niche they had it's a massive nerf void rays were most effective by putting them in battle, already charged up or charging up, and then keeping them charged doing massive damage now.. all that time they are fully charged.. you're doing way less damage. void rays can no longer decimate an opponent's base like they used to. think about how void rays were used. was it ever remotely ideal to "hit and run" with void rays? (note, im not trying to complain... im just saying that their niche has changed... and im concerned that they don't really have a functional role anymore) So many people complained about void rays because of proxy void ray rushes in bronze league.... So they nerf void armor damage and give them higher light? If someone gets 3 voids in your base, and you don't already have a hydra den/10+ marines..... your still going to lose. I mean, now void rays are BETTER at killing marines, but still do high DPS to buildings as well.. The entire void ray nerf was pointless IMO, it just means protoss will almost never use them in actual fights.. | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
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rycho
United States360 Posts
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QuixoticO
Netherlands810 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:14 Fa1nT wrote: So many people complained about void rays because of proxy void ray rushes in bronze league.... So they nerf void armor damage and give them higher light? If someone gets 3 voids in your base, and you don't already have a hydra den/10+ marines..... your still going to lose. I mean, now void rays are BETTER at killing marines, but still do high DPS to buildings as well.. The entire void ray nerf was pointless IMO, it just means protoss will almost never use them in actual fights.. For Zerg multiple queens should be enough to fight of 3 voids and if he has more you were doing something wrong to begin with. | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
You are not considering the fact that people at high levels pre-charge their voidrays or the fact that a void ray cannot beat a queen 1v1 now. Also, voidrays late game are mostly "shock" units. You hope that they're not discovered and send them to your enemies base while they're out of position and you level it before they get back to defend. They will also be worse then since their long term damage has been decreased. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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roliax
135 Posts
In other words, Blizzard has done a great job at preventing and slowing down cheese for low level players (2 gate proxy, 9 rax reapers, fast void rays)...things that can kill another low level player right away. These are even deadly in the hands of a good pro player who can transition out of the cheese right away as we see with proxy void rays. This void ray nerf discourages proxy void ray and hopefully eliminate all those 5 minute games where the terran player dies to a proxy void ray (I've seen this too many times and those games are frustatingly boring). I belive this will make the void ray viable as a harass unit due to its relatively high move speed and higher level 1 damage output and also viable in the main army. | ||
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Hoju
United States449 Posts
What this data shows is that it is more effective in the first 12 seconds of firing, which makes it more effective against units than it was before. So, it makes it much more useful against lower hp units than it used to be. This also makes them much easier to use and be more effective in groups and with a ground army. Their range 6 allows them to sit back in the army a little and makes them harder to focus down with the ground army pushing the enemy as well. I think oGsInCa showed in his GSL2 ro32 match vs. TankBoy that void rays can be used effectively in this method. I would love to see more pros use them in this manner in order to see just how effective they are when used with an army. One thing about this change that doesn't quite make sense is that the void ray is weaker against the large air ships that I believe they were meant to counter (carrier, battlecruiser). It takes an extra 4.8 seconds to kill a battlecruiser. So, I would have liked to see the stage 2 damage not nerfed quite so much in order to keep the same effectiveness against those large air units. | ||
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Fizbin
Canada202 Posts
nothing more annoying then a fe cannon into mass void ray in team or ffa. stupid 1a click unit in that case. no skill edit: ps i think crota is a terrible shout caster. said it once and i'll say it again. some of the things he says are so far off whats actually going on. its unberable to watch... hence i dont watch him anymore. its nice he is trying to contribute though. guess its the thought that counts. User was warned for this post | ||
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Tray
United States122 Posts
Again the problem with these numbers is that in 90%+ of all void ray situations, you're using them ONLY charged. For this reason this nerf was a hugely significant one and Void Rays are no longer used in competitive play. Nice looking spreadsheet though. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
The problem I see is, almost no-matter what blizzard does, you are obviously always best off pre-charging, so while the patch made it less useful to pre-charge, when you use them you are always likely wanting to pre-charge using pylon/rocks and micro them to keep the charge, so they will always be gimmicky while they keep this charge system. I'd rather want to see the charge reset per target and balance around that, so the VR can be beastly to buildings/capital ships while not being to strong against normal units. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
I wouldn't mind however, a slight decrease in the mineral cost of the VR because of the damage reduction of T2. I'm inclined to agree with Dustin Browder to the extent that the ability to hit air and ground is very powerful and should be treated with caution in balancing. | ||
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LWr
60 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:19 ejac wrote:the fact that a void ray cannot beat a queen 1v1 now. Could you please refrain from spreading misinformation like that? A void ray still beats a queen 1v1. 2v2 it doesn't because of transfuse, but that was still the case pre-1.1.2 | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
That could really make them a lot less powerful without actually changing stats like this (im not complaining or anything, but im curious). Making it so that an army of VRs could be escaped (unlike now where they just hunt you down while killing you) might be an indirect nerf because you could retreat and try to wait out their charge if they got charged up, only to engage a few seconds after they lose their charge. I guess that wouldnt deal with VRs in bases, but honestly, if youve got VRs in your base and cant deal with them, youre pretty much dead already. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:14 LegendaryZ wrote: I don't think this is really that meaningful at all since it doesn't really take into account how VR's were actually used in real game scenarios. I think the point is that Blizzard intended for the unit to be used one way and players were using it in a way that Blizzard didn't intend. Another way of saying "using it in a way that Blizzard didn't intend" is "abuse." In the way VRs were being "abused" in that sense, then yes, it's a massive nerf, but the real issue is that VRs shouldn't have been used that way in the first place. It's more of a fix than anything else. Abuse aside, the intended niche that Blizzard planned for the VR (counter to high-hitpoint armored and massive units) isn't currently being effectively filled by the VR. A fix I would have proposed to the VR, in addition to the change of damage, would be re-introducing a 3rd level that would add another +10 to massive units (similar to the corruptor). The bonus could be against armored instead if necessary, since I'm pretty confident there isn't a massive unit in the game that isn't armored as well. At least this would give the VR some use against ultralisks and thors if their DPS was respectable. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:21 travis wrote: Honestly I think the biggest effect of this void ray change is that my opponents don't really have to worry so much about it anymore. There is no concern of "maybe he's going void ray, I need to find out or account for that". I think the biggest change to the Void Ray is that it is not nearly as beneficial to use them in silly ways now. We all enjoyed the scenes of a single charged VR in an enemy base tearing the place to shreds. I loved it, you loved it, everybody loved it. But having a unit that by game design was best used if you attacked your own units before moving in is silly game design. It was effective, but it was silly. I'm pretty sure the design intention of the Void Ray was NOT to have it used like that. I think it's still too early to say whether or not VR rushes are effective or ineffective. They've been used once or twice in the GSL still. Was it Inca I think who won a game on Scrap Station with a Void Ray rush last night? Personally, I would like to see that second charge level put back in. It's got the animation for three charges, and I think the design of the unit is to have a gradually charging beam. I would be all for the damage being 6+4 at stage 1, 7+6 at stage 2 and 8+8 at stage 3. That would make them even better when attacking from no-charge, and make them do even more damage to your own stuff when you try to precharge. ALSO: On October 28 2010 09:37 Toxigen wrote: At least this would give the VR some use against ultralisks and thors if their DPS was respectable. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor so hard it isn't even funny. With no charge it almost doesn't even take hull damage before the Thor dies. | ||
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Azn_Christian
United States153 Posts
By cutting out cheese, they reduced the value of early scout and early aggression/harrass. By nurfing Vrs, they reduced the value of a toss airforce to ~0, and it never was really a viable/transition-able in any matchup already. Also, made it much less micro- intensive, since you don't really have to keep hitting an object/vr every 5 secs while on route to enemy base, since it is not essential to charge it up. | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
I think it's still too early to say whether or not VR rushes are effective or ineffective. They've been used once or twice in the GSL still. Was it Inca I think who won a game on Scrap Station with a Void Ray rush last night? The voidrays barely had an effect on that match. Not a single ray got charged, Inca just had a bigger army than the Terran, period. But having a unit that by game design was best used if you attacked your own units before moving in is silly game design. It was effective, but it was silly. I'm pretty sure the design intention of the Void Ray was NOT to have it used like that. Except it wasn't Silly. Artosis and Tasteless agreed it was the best designed unit in the game (Artosis literally said that) in GSL 1 during the PvP between IncA and another Protoss, where they were going back and forth with pre-charged Voidrays. | ||
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DamageInq
United States283 Posts
VR aren't made to be thrown in your army, they will be focus fired down before getting a charge off, and their DPS isn't cost effective for head-on battles even vs armored units. Nice video though.. it's kinda hard to explain to some people how the nerf was quite a big buff too. Although it changes the role of the unit, atm players are yet to find good use of it. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
Void Ray Damage does not suck: Phoenix (vs Light): 18.2 DPS, 9.1 DPS/supply VR (Charged, vs Armored): 26.7 DPS, 8.9 DPS/supply Viking (vs Armored): 14.0 DPS, 7.0 DPS/supply Banshee: 19.2 DPS, 6.4 DPS/supply BL + 11 Broodling melees: 25.6 DPS, 6.4 DPS/supply BC (vs Ground): 35.6 DPS, 5.9 DPS/supply VR (Charged, vs Unarmored): 13.3 DPS, 4.4 DPS/supply Mutalisk + 2 bounces: 8.5 DPS, 4.3 DPS/supply Corruptor (vs Massive): 11.6 DPS, 3.9 DPS/supply Interceptor (approx): 3.3 DPS, 3.3 DPS/supply Mothership (lol): 8.1 DPS, 1.0 DPS/supply For comparison's sake, the highest DPS/supply ground units in the game (Not counting special abilities). None of them are capable of attacking air. Crackling: 8.6 DPS, 17.2 DPS/supply Reaper (vs Light): 16.4 DPS, 16.4 DPS/supply Zergling: 7.2 DPS, 14.4 DPS/supply Dark Templar: 26.6 DPS, 13.3 DPS/supply The pre-patch charged voidray did 41.7 DPS to armored, or 13.9 DPS/supply. That's higher DPSS than a dark templar, but with long range and ability to hit both ground + air. | ||
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thesauceishot
Canada333 Posts
On October 28 2010 09:12 Tray wrote: As mentioned voids are completely non viable now. They were never overpowered. They were devistating if you didn't scout and let them get into your base where they could charge before you engaged them. Again the problem with these numbers is that in 90%+ of all void ray situations, you're using them ONLY charged. For this reason this nerf was a hugely significant one and Void Rays are no longer used in competitive play. Nice looking spreadsheet though. This. They used to be able to win games if you didn't scout them and didn't react in time, but now they can't. They were a very unique unit, but now they're just a mediocre unit without any special capabilities. Mediocre damage, slow moving. | ||
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us.insurgency
United States330 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:00 TheFinalWord wrote: Yes you can't use voids like you did before, but that isn't a bad thing, they are now far far more useful in a straight up fight, I think it will take some time for people to get used to it. There`s will never be a reason to use them in a straight up fight. They die in 2 seconds to anything and their DPS is not worth their cost. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
No it can't attack air or is as mobile but how often would you need an air to air unit that has high DPS against armored air units? Corrupter? Just build more stalkers Viking? More stalkers ???? And some more stalkers....... IMHO the voidray has no place in competitive play anymore. Once again blizzard balancing around low league players and other than 1v1.... | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
Nonzero > zero. Void Rays aren't even cost effective against Roaches. Think about that for a second. | ||
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TrueProtoss
13 Posts
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johngalt90
United States357 Posts
My greatest fear of SC2 is that blizzard has foregone the notions of balance and rather utilizes patching to influence metagame and essentially turn it into an illusion of balance. i think the recent patch is a grand example of this type of error in balance. in my opinion (yes in my opinion) the subsequent zerg buffs are not a step towards balanced. in fact i believe this patch implemented imba to boost zerg numbers and therefore satisfy the objectives of spreadsheets and data collection. Now blizz can say its balanced because zergs are good now even though i feel it is disproportionately slow. already the immediate improvement of zerg suggests that this forward trend of success would continue on to dominance. it is for the previous reason i dissapprove of the nerfbat on the voidray. agree with or disagree with my analysis of zerg is irrelevant, you can put in any example that you like. so please dont turn it into race imba. it was simply the best way to make my point but it isnt the point of the post. and finally just wanted to add uncharged dps of voidray would be considered incidental dps and charged effective dps. we are only concerned with dps of the charge in the case of the voidray. I would have been happier with 4 supply VR's than this. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:28 us.insurgency wrote: There`s will never be a reason to use them in a straight up fight. They die in 2 seconds to anything and their DPS is not worth their cost. Compare 2 stalkers and a void ray. void ray slightly more expensive, less supply same damage against armoured uncharged, more damage charged, immune to ground attacks, more mobile. Void rays can actually do something if they are not charged now, if a viking catches a void ray if it was uncharged before it might be close, but now it will demolish it. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:53 TheFinalWord wrote: Compare 2 stalkers and a void ray. void ray slightly more expensive, less supply same damage against armoured uncharged, more damage charged, immune to ground attacks, more mobile. Void rays can actually do something if they are not charged now, if a viking catches a void ray if it was uncharged before it might be close, but now it will demolish it. 50 gas difference is a lot. It's also a lot easier to pay 50 gas 3 times than it is to pay 150 gas 1 time. Stalkers build instantly while voids take a long goddamn time. Stalkers also require almost no tech while going voids forces you into a single tech path. You can't go void/templar for obvious reasons. Voids have no role anymore. They were already a gimmicky unit before hand, but now, that one gimmick has been killed because Blizzard isn't creative enough. I figured out that you can charge voids on my own units within a day of seeing the unit. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
Anyways I saw Inca win a game with 7 of them but honestly if i need a critical mass of like 6 vrs to start killing things I probably will die before they get out. Maybe after like 2/3 bases a pack of vrs with speed can be the new muta flock that lets toss expand/contain but I need to try it out some more. | ||
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DminusTerran
Canada1337 Posts
Interceptor (approx): 3.3 DPS, 3.3 DPS/supply Mothership (lol): 8.1 DPS, 1.0 DPS/supply Umm the mothership numbers are wrong and the Interceptor dps per supply makes no sense :\. | ||
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roliax
135 Posts
On October 28 2010 11:46 Grond wrote: Video is ridiculous Did he really think nobody realized VR did a little more damage uncharged? Spreadsheet is purposely misleading by ending the chart just a few seconds after VR is charged. Everybody knew you needed to pre-charge the Void Ray for it to be effective in 1x1. VR went from a poorly designed niche unit to a useless unit. It was nerfed for large multiplayer games which I agree was a problem but as the saying goes don't piss on my head and tell me its raining. Just because you know something doesn't mean everyone else does. The video was an informative video, not a campaign to change the void ray or make a case for/agaisnt it. You're implying the bias on your own. He stopped the chart at the point where the total damage by the old void ray > that of the new void ray and makes the point that "at this time, the cumulative damage is higher on the old void ray" hence it is redundant to show any more. Here's a better argument: the point he FAILED to make is that the old void ray's pre-charged damage was rarely, if ever, actually used to damage anything useful (rocks, depots, own units, pylons). At the time when the old void ray attacks its first target, it is already fully charged thus nullifying that entire chart. Therefore, it is the dps and not the cumulative damage that actually matters (at least in the way that the VR used to be used). | ||
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Hoju
United States449 Posts
On October 28 2010 11:46 Grond wrote: Spreadsheet is purposely misleading by ending the chart just a few seconds after VR is charged. No, he just ends it at the point when the 1.1.1 VR has done more damage than the 1.1.2 VR. It shows that from when it starts attacking, the 1.1.2 VR does more damage than the 1.1.1 VR until about 12 or 12.6 seconds depending on whether the target is armored or not (assuming it is attacking one unit/building the whole time). It's pretty obvious that the 1.1.1 VR will do much more damage than the 1.1.2 VR from that point on due to its higher dps. | ||
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SaDGoWu
United States133 Posts
Honestly i wish blizzard would be honest to Protoss players and actually post the "imbalance" they found and why a 40% nerf brought us closer to a balanced game, as well as if it was imbalanced, I wish they would just remove the unit from the game because it;s kind of depressing to have useless units sitting in your production facility (not that i'de ever go stargate now anyway). Anyway, looking forward to that Psi storm nerf coming up -.- t t | ||
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
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Grond
599 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
Good players who charge their void rays before they attack do much less dmg now | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On October 28 2010 15:31 Grond wrote: It does a whopping 13 extra damage over 13 seconds vs non-armored. Hooray. nice buff? On the other hand: It does a whopping 65 damage over 13 seconds vs armoured. Hooray! nice buff! | ||
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inFeZa
Australia556 Posts
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:11 KevinIX wrote: Ah. That was a nice analysis. I was wondering whether the change was an overall buff or a nerf. I guess 42 dps was rather ridiculous. This change definitely made void rays a little bit more useful as part of the main army, like in the oGsInCa v TankboyPrime game. and inca would have lost if tankboy scouted better, both times. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On October 28 2010 15:07 SaDGoWu wrote: What someone should really do is make a video comparing how long a Pre Patch void ray takes to kill an ultralisk/thor/bc and compared to how long a Post Patch void Ray takes to kill these units that the Void Ray was specifically designed to kill. Alot of that 41 dps is mitigated by the high armor of the units they were designed to counter. Honestly i wish blizzard would be honest to Protoss players and actually post the "imbalance" they found and why a 40% nerf brought us closer to a balanced game, as well as if it was imbalanced, I wish they would just remove the unit from the game because it;s kind of depressing to have useless units sitting in your production facility (not that i'de ever go stargate now anyway). Anyway, looking forward to that Psi storm nerf coming up -.- t t this | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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Midnight70
United States9 Posts
I feel that post-1.1.2 void ray sneak attacks are like terran medivac drops; they will still do damage to your base but you can deal with them (ex: my blink stalkers now stand a chance vs charged VR's). IMO I welcome the change and I think more people will use them in their army composition now instead of a gimmicky "haha I win" crafty build. | ||
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NikonTC
United Kingdom418 Posts
As it is, I got utterly slaughtered by an early stalker/voidray push in a tournament last night. I watched the replay and was impressed by how strong a push it was. Basically if you weren't already going at least 2rax then you're in a huge amount of trouble. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On October 28 2010 16:01 Grond wrote: Tested a Void Ray vs a BC with upgraded armor. The Void Ray died with the BC at 78% health(did not use yamato obviously) Against 8 Phoenixes the BC won while still at half health. 3 BC's being repaired beat 12 Void Rays with no losses. Tested 5 Battlecruisers vs. 7 Void Rays (even costs, imagine that), Void Rays win with 2 VRs left. Blind unit tests are stupid, and blind unit tests where you give the Terran arbitrary advantages in 3 different tests are even stupider. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:13 Piousflea wrote: The VR still does decent damage compared to other air units. The nerf only majorly harms the voidray for VR vs Battlecruiser fights (which BCs now win even more easily thanks to yamato). Void Ray Damage does not suck: Phoenix (vs Light): 18.2 DPS, 9.1 DPS/supply VR (Charged, vs Armored): 26.7 DPS, 8.9 DPS/supply Viking (vs Armored): 14.0 DPS, 7.0 DPS/supply Banshee: 19.2 DPS, 6.4 DPS/supply BL + 11 Broodling melees: 25.6 DPS, 6.4 DPS/supply BC (vs Ground): 35.6 DPS, 5.9 DPS/supply VR (Charged, vs Unarmored): 13.3 DPS, 4.4 DPS/supply Mutalisk + 2 bounces: 8.5 DPS, 4.3 DPS/supply Corruptor (vs Massive): 11.6 DPS, 3.9 DPS/supply Interceptor (approx): 3.3 DPS, 3.3 DPS/supply Mothership (lol): 8.1 DPS, 1.0 DPS/supply For comparison's sake, the highest DPS/supply ground units in the game (Not counting special abilities). None of them are capable of attacking air. Crackling: 8.6 DPS, 17.2 DPS/supply Reaper (vs Light): 16.4 DPS, 16.4 DPS/supply Zergling: 7.2 DPS, 14.4 DPS/supply Dark Templar: 26.6 DPS, 13.3 DPS/supply The pre-patch charged voidray did 41.7 DPS to armored, or 13.9 DPS/supply. That's higher DPS than a dark templar, but with long range and ability to hit both ground + air. the last line really sums up why it had to be rebalanced nobody mentions the flux vanes nerf either, they were much too mobile | ||
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Varth
United States426 Posts
Terran have dropship play with marines marauders thors helions, helion runbys, banshee harass, siege tanks on ledges above expos, raven turret mineral lines, and technically still have reapers though that is weak now. Zerg has speedling runbys, baneling traps, baneling drops, infestor burrowing, roach burrowing, muta harass and of course nidus. I personally want more fun things to do as protoss, instead of just plain macro up and make a big army (dont get me wrong protoss is strong in that aspect) and defend the entire damn game until i finally have a large army. Every single game for the first 10minutes is me on the permanent defense againt terran, trying to timing push (not harass, you have to commit a bunch of units) against zerg. We have no small things we can be doing on the side beyond better macro and better defense, beyond scouting. Keep in mind this is assuming high level play | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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Perscienter
957 Posts
On October 28 2010 16:07 NikonTC wrote: Blizzard did release the reason for this nerf. They were sent evidence by a high level korean player that showed a timing rush using voidrays that was impossible to defend. As it is, I got utterly slaughtered by an early stalker/voidray push in a tournament last night. I watched the replay and was impressed by how strong a push it was. Basically if you weren't already going at least 2rax then you're in a huge amount of trouble. I don't understand this statement since I haven't played just one PvT in weeks where the Terran didn't open with 3rax. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
Tested 5 Battlecruisers vs. 7 Void Rays (even costs, imagine that), Void Rays win with 2 VRs left. Blind unit tests are stupid, and blind unit tests where you give the Terran arbitrary advantages in 3 different tests are even stupider. It was not meant as a guide, just illustrative of how Protoss may have issues with BC's now. Repeated your test with 5 3/3 BC's with Yamato vs 7 3/3 Void Rays. BC's win with no casualties. The scenario where I really see a problem is Marauder + BC + PDD. Terrans aren't making BC's anymore since the nerf but that seems like an extremely difficult combo for Protoss to deal with now. | ||
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Final_Judicator
Germany85 Posts
I can understand that VRs may have been to powerful as they were, being able to abuse their high charged damage by using lame base-back-stabbing techniques and wiping out all tech buildings before the defending army even arrives. But this nerf/buff has in my opinion not made the VR a well-rounded unit. They might just take it out of the game and replace it with the BW scout, which might even benefit Protoss, since toss anti (armored) air is so weak that the scout's antimateria rockets should prove useful against capital air units. But that is another story... To the point: First of all, the interesting part of the void ray was charging it up pre-fight, because you would have a useless unit otherwise. Now, it doesn't make so much of a difference, since 6 or 8 damage against light isn't THAT big of a deal, and even 10 or 16 damage vs armored isn't nearly as huge of a difference as before, making the unit a lot less interesting and nullifying the charging-up concept. Void rays are STILL rather weak when uncharged, and only decent when charged. Something that the people who say "but at least you can fight with uncharged void rays now" obviously forget is another phenomenon that I have observed, but no one seems to have mentioned yet - when you engage troops with a few uncharged void rays, the higher pre-charged damage output makes it almost impossible to charge them up in the fight. E.g., four void rays focusing a roach will kill it so quickly, they won't even get to the second stage. This effectively means the void rays will never be charged when using them uncharged in battle, especially when focusing with 5+ VRs. Before the nerf, the uncharged damage was so low that it was at least possible to charge up on a high hp unit in combat. So, what I want to say is, that, with the void ray's mechanics, a pre-charged damage buff is in fact automatically a nerf to the charged damage since it will be almost impossible to charge up a group of VRs when there are no structures nearby. Thus, your group of VRs will most probably remain uncharged and effectively remain a rather weak unit. This may sound weird, but the intention of making an uncharged VR more viable may in fact have decreased the overall viability of VRs... Regards, Final_Judicator | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
On October 28 2010 16:43 Grond wrote: It was not meant as a guide, just illustrative of how Protoss may have issues with BC's now. Repeated your test with 5 3/3 BC's with Yamato vs 7 3/3 Void Rays. BC's win with no casualties. People get Yamato? And if you add the price for Yamato to one side, shouldn't you to the other? | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2830 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:08 travis wrote: given the role void rays were playing, the niche they had it's a massive nerf void rays can no longer decimate an opponent's base like they used to. Yup. The goal of the nerf. Don't worry, bro, you'll adjust. | ||
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Thunderfist
Poland159 Posts
Repeated your test with 5 3/3 BC's with Yamato vs 7 3/3 Void Rays. BC's win with no casualties. What is this ? This is retarded "With YAMATO?". Dude with yamato even in 1.1.1 patch void rays would insta-loose against BC. Stop sprouting shit like this. And i suppose no shield upgrades though u made armor and weapons ? Make it bold, no upgrades vs no upgrades. Jeez. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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Thunderfist
Poland159 Posts
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oprandom
United States33 Posts
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Mios
United States686 Posts
Nerfing a rarely used Fleet Beacon upgrade makes me sad. I honestly hope they buff the fleet beacon + carriers in some way, they both cost way too much and the carrier takes far too long to build. yes, you can chronoboost, but it almost seems like Blizzard made late game units so long to train because they're assuming you're chronoboosting it, effectively making chronoboost pointless.. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Now we're seeing Void Rays actually be used within an army. The change was most certainly a good one. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On November 11 2010 09:54 DoubleReed wrote: Void Rays before 1.1.2 were pretty much restricted to cheese and proxy plays. If the surprise didn't succeed then it would generally fail. Outside of that, void rays were practically not part of the game. Now we're seeing Void Rays actually be used within an army. The change was most certainly a good one. It's the opposite for me. Void Rays used to be decent additions to a late game composition when you could charge them up before they fought. Now they are generally just bad additions to a late game composition whether you charge them up or not. However they're still a flying unit that can attack both ground and air so they've retained their use in early game rushes for taking advantage of a lack of anti-air and making opponents defend places that they wouldn't have to defend against an all ground opponent. And as far as I know, before the patch Void Rays were making up 100% of armies (not in high level 1v1 games, but in other games) and that's why they got nerfed. Making all Void Rays and attack moving them was too powerful in these low level games. | ||
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SOB_Maj_Brian
United States522 Posts
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Grond
599 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On November 11 2010 09:54 DoubleReed wrote: Void Rays before 1.1.2 were pretty much restricted to cheese and proxy plays. If the surprise didn't succeed then it would generally fail. Outside of that, void rays were practically not part of the game. Now we're seeing Void Rays actually be used within an army. The change was most certainly a good one. Nah, they definitely could be used for harassment purposes, for scouting, and for various other builds. They were a versatile unit that rewarded micro, planning and could be used to buy time to make other options viable, like templar or fast expand or mass phoenix. Now they are a cheese unit that is only effective against protoss and only if he is going robo and you proxy 2-3 gates in midgame and it doesn't get scouted. You could do this before, but it wasn't cheese, because when he saw the VRs he could micro accordingly. Wow. | ||
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bobucles
410 Posts
The void ray was useless unless you charged it up first So the general consensus is that the void ray WAS broken. Now it can actually be used at level 1 charge without instantly forfeiting the game.I think the void ray design is still pretty flawed. It's made to destroy large targets, but offers no ability that excels at killing large targets! Most battles are too high paced for the void ray to ramp up, so it never sees its full potential. Multiple void rays actually reduce each other's damage, giving less time for a full charge. The health/DPS of the void ray can not really be balanced against heavy units or light units. If it does crazy damage, it kills everything. If it can't deal heavy damage, it fails at killing large targets. High health and low health don't change that simple fact. Maybe the attack should be shifted to be more +armor at the cost of base damage, but that still makes it good against small armored units. Another option is to change its weapon to +massive and +structure bonus, so it fails against small targets altogether. The acid spores from broodwar made big ships tremble before the swarm. If the void ray provided some sort of stacking debuff, beefy targets would naturally suffer more than small targets. Which is what the void ray SHOULD be doing on the field. The debuff could be armor reduction, it could be a snare, it could reduce the unit's fire rate. Anything of that nature would ruin a large unit, but be pointless to waste on a marine. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
the end. | ||
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Arckan
243 Posts
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Eminent Rising
United States174 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Now in a 4v4, where they're all zergs and just muta rush and then make more mutas and more mutas and then they have 400 mutas in one control group? But nope, blizzard doesn't care about that. Even if they had to nerf the VR, they didn't need to nerf it that much. Making them as effective as immortals would not be imba in team games. And it would be a slight nerf, to see if it helped, instead of a drastic nerf that changes the unit role entirely, which they said they wouldn't be doing. | ||
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Anon06
United States203 Posts
On November 11 2010 10:33 Grond wrote: VR is pretty much useless now. Blizzard has proven multiple times that they can't balance the charge mechanic. They need to remove charge completely and rebalance the unit. I agree, with you blizzard had no fear of scraping and reworking mechanics before release but after release they wont do that. they could easily change the mechanic to be something like no charge just damage changing depending on the unit: small beam 5 base damage. medium beam 5 (+ 5 vs armored). large beam 5 (+20 vs massive). or more easily explained as 5 damage (10 vs armored 25 vs massive) that way it serves a role as an anti capital ship that protoss desperately needs and is still balanced vs everything else. it also makes sense that the pilot would gauge how much juice is necessary by the size of the unit. the damage amount is just an example don't get fixated on that. or something like an activated ability that causes the voidray to be immobile and shield-less for a certain period of time but gains full charge (the old damage) for "x" amount of time which would promote the old hit and run style again. though i prefer the first method. | ||
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Seraph.yongweihua
Canada224 Posts
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lastmotion
368 Posts
The only part I disliked about VRs was that they came out too early; P needs to build something besides Stargate to start massing them. This is coming from a Terran player. The Void Ray nerf was really unjustified. I feel like Blizzard listened to the Terran players who screamed about VRs (even though VRs were fine) and did not listen to the Protoss players who screamed about Marauders (Marauders were a problem since the dawn of time). Well technically they "nerfed" Marauders by giving it a 50/50 research for concussive...but that 50/50 is a cheap price and after the research is done, Marauders go back to their flawed self. | ||
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Reesj
Sri Lanka47 Posts
On October 28 2010 07:59 roliax wrote: Ok so we all know the void ray was "nerfed" in the last patch. But I've been trying so hard to explain why it isn't a true nerf to all my noobie friends but alas to no avail. Finally, the caster Crota was nice and smart enough to create a chart and video to explain this nerf/buff simultaneous phonemenom. Only a mentally Handicapped person or someone who has never used the void rays would call it a buff. they almost always were charged up when fighting important units and they used mostly to attack buildings when no troops near or when they get there to get killed. You are either a really stupid person or never used void rays on the first place! User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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NeonGenesis
Norway260 Posts
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
Their "ball" effect in late game, particularly against Terran was a little bit absurd. Now this gives us a reason to get Carriers, which I'm happy about. Also the level 1 damage for Void Rays is better and that can be used for some new things (much easier to snipe overlords now). As far as the nerfed damage on the level 2, it's still good but again not so ridiculously broken that you always choose it over Carriers. | ||
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
Even if you (for whatever reason!) play the way the spreadsheet assumes, they've nerfed you too, by making it virtually impossible to charge in battle against a typical ground ball. It takes literally every tick of a marauder's health bar to charge a void ray, and if you happen to have more than one, or (god forbid) a gateway army also in the fight, you'll find the voids almost impossible to charge because no single unit survives long enough. You can't even use single-target micro to prevent this, since their 'move and attack' mechanic will cause them to switch targets whenever their specified target retreats, even by a single hex out of their normal 6.... Watch the NEXGenius vs HopeTorture game on Lost Temple in the GSL. At the end, NEX is using voids as part of his main deathball vs the entire terran army, and the majority of them never manage to charge up at all.... Edit: even saying that they have been nerfed significantly (and really, there's no doubt about it), they do have marginally more utility than they did before, and before they were imba at full charge... so I can't say it was a totally bad change. The problem now is, their whole unique mechanic is pretty worthless. I don't really care if my voids are charged or not when I'm using them. It used to matter a great deal... Imagine if as a Terran you didn't really care if your tanks were sieged or not, it didn't feel like it made a gamechanging difference either way... wouldn't you be a bit disappointed? | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
On November 11 2010 18:12 Tump wrote: I don't know why there's so much complaining about Void Rays. They still are quite nice to open up with PvT to get an expansion up and contain Terran, possibly even kill him if he's playing greedy. Their "ball" effect in late game, particularly against Terran was a little bit absurd. Now this gives us a reason to get Carriers, which I'm happy about. Also the level 1 damage for Void Rays is better and that can be used for some new things (much easier to snipe overlords now). As far as the nerfed damage on the level 2, it's still good but again not so ridiculously broken that you always choose it over Carriers. Open up PvT with Void Rays? - Marines will decimate them. So, we will use Carriers more, because they dont suck as much as the void ray? - I think I will just go for a better tech path Why snipe overlords with Void Rays when you can do it with pheonixes? Why even bother with the Stargate? - The reason we didn't get carriers was not because Void Rays were so much better, it was because Carriers sucked. Theres barly much of a difference, it should be noticably more dangerous with charged void rays - now its just /care | ||
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xenaris
Belgium34 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:08 travis wrote: given the role void rays were playing, the niche they had it's a massive nerf void rays were most effective by putting them in battle, already charged up or charging up, and then keeping them charged doing massive damage now.. all that time they are fully charged.. you're doing way less damage. void rays can no longer decimate an opponent's base like they used to. think about how void rays were used. was it ever remotely ideal to "hit and run" with void rays? (note, im not trying to complain... im just saying that their niche has changed... and im concerned that they don't really have a functional role anymore) I totally agree, normally they were usefull in sniping buildings when your opponents were out their base.. now they can't even kill a supply depot in a reasonable time... | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
Previously VRs were either an all in or entirely useless unless you had a good way to charge them meaning they had a limited, very specific use. The dps is clearly lower at charge now, but they're so much more useful now and blend in much better into sc2 as a game now. Since now, you can use them as part of your army to force more anti-air units then while you destroy buildings they get stronger making it harder to approach your army until charge is dead. My opinion is P players should like it more now since it's more versatile as a unit even though it's not as destructive at charge. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
A quick poke is now generally more deadly because you can do more damage before you have to move away. My Vikings against Flux Vane VRs are having a harder time when the VRs manage to nudge into range before the Vikings fly off, but they're no longer impossible to bring down once they are charged. Generally though I never had significant issues with VRs, Marines and Vikings deal with them quite readily both pre and post patch. | ||
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Friend23
Poland270 Posts
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Friend23
Poland270 Posts
In current patch, with no damage upgrades, the damage is as follows: L1 = 6 +4 to armored L2 = 6 +4 to armored L3 = 8 +8 to armored (I figured it out out of the chart in the vid) But how exactly does it change for +1 air, for +2 air, for +3 air? heard somewhere than +1 gives a difference so that L2 has higher damage than L1. If somebody could clearly answer what is the damage on each level for each damage upgrade, it would be great. | ||
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Friend23
Poland270 Posts
There could be higher damage to massive next to current damage to light/armored. | ||
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
The only people who think void rays are useful now are the terran and zerg players posting on this thread... you know who you are. And to whoever said void rays kill buildings fast now... do you even PLAY protoss? PLEASE. before you post up saying "OH VOID RAY IS OKAY STOP COMPLAINING", how about you 1. PLAY protoss 2. TRY to win with a VR composition more than 50% of the time, and THEN tell us about it. If scouted, VRs are a dead end. No, that's incorrect. They're a goddamn chainball of lost mineral/gas investments helping you to drown in the sea of lings/roaches/MMM/vikings/and every other goddamn unit... -___- | ||
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
On November 11 2010 20:34 kidd wrote: Void rays are more useful now than they were before. If you're complaining that you can't hide VRs and autowin if they're not scouted or that they can't kill buildings fast enough now, I feel that your skill level is displayed as low through that opinion. Void rays still kill buildings very fast and the change just makes them more viable in multiple scenarios and probably the more intended scenario by blizzard, to use them to strengthen an army composition. Previously VRs were either an all in or entirely useless unless you had a good way to charge them meaning they had a limited, very specific use. The dps is clearly lower at charge now, but they're so much more useful now and blend in much better into sc2 as a game now. Since now, you can use them as part of your army to force more anti-air units then while you destroy buildings they get stronger making it harder to approach your army until charge is dead. My opinion is P players should like it more now since it's more versatile as a unit even though it's not as destructive at charge. Voidrays are terrible as a part of a main army, they are expensive, fragile and are terribly cost efficient. The fact that you need to get Stargate tech to get them doesn't help. | ||
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bobucles
410 Posts
Like it or not, void rays are a T2 unit made to counter T3 units. It doesn't have to make sense, but that's what their charge up mechanic was made to do. They end up ineffective because they always get swarmed by T1 and T2 units! The nerf to structure killing doesn't help, as that was one of their few good uses mid game. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
When talking about cost efficiency, Void Rays were always a glass cannon unit. They are good when units aren't attacking them, like mutalisks. That has always been true even before the change. Its just that now they actually require some support to make work, rather than just soloing into the fray as cheese. I'm sorry, I've seen much more standard void ray play now that its been changed. Not fancy cheese or proxying, but normal void ray play, as part of an army. Before the patch, I never saw this. That's all I'm sayin'. Void Rays were stupid before the patch. small beam 5 base damage. medium beam 5 (+ 5 vs armored). large beam 5 (+20 vs massive). Uhm. This makes the void ray possibly one of the most boring, uninteresting units in the game. That's like balancing reapers by removing the jumping mechanic and the +damage to buildings. Voidrays are terrible as a part of a main army, they are expensive, fragile and are terribly cost efficient. The fact that you need to get Stargate tech to get them doesn't help. Mutalisks are also expensive, fragile, and terribly cost efficient but are one of the best units in the game. They require tech that takes a long time to build so its easy to scout, and is one of our most expensive tech buildings. Going to have to try harder than that. | ||
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Spiegel
Australia79 Posts
Ok well it may not be true  I read that somewhere and it sounded true enough. I would love for someone to correct me with proof. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On November 11 2010 21:00 andrewwiggin wrote: The only people who think void rays are useful now are the terran and zerg players posting on this thread... you know who you are. And to whoever said void rays kill buildings fast now... do you even PLAY protoss? PLEASE. before you post up saying "OH VOID RAY IS OKAY STOP COMPLAINING", how about you 1. PLAY protoss 2. TRY to win with a VR composition more than 50% of the time, and THEN tell us about it. If scouted, VRs are a dead end. No, that's incorrect. They're a goddamn chainball of lost mineral/gas investments helping you to drown in the sea of lings/roaches/MMM/vikings/and every other goddamn unit... You know who plays Protoss really, really well? Plexa. You know what Plexa thinks the future of lategame PvZ is? Speed Rays From his (extremely awesome) PvZ guide on the strat forums (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992): Okay so once you scout that he's going hive you need to decide on what Late game unit composition you want to strive for. Really, there are only two options - Void Rays or Immortals. Immortals hard counter Ultralisks so if you know your Zerg opponent is going to go Ultralisks, slap down 3 robos and pump immortals, research charge, and mass Zealots. If you were using the IST unit composition keep making Templar and cease Stalker production. If you were using the CSS unit composition, try not to lose Colossus and cease Stalker/Sentry production - consider mixing in DTs if possible. Ultimately though, I feel that Immortals are not flexible enough for the late game since a good Zerg should switch back to Mutalisks or Hydralisks and roflstomp your late game army - plus immortals suck against Broodlords for obvious reasons. 2 Stargate VoidRay, however, is the future of PvZ late game in my humble opinion. Hasuobs was the first to really use this in high pressure situations, as far as I can recall. Of course I am referring to his Go4SC2 Final against Haypro, in particular his game on Lost Temple. Void Rays, or rather, Speed Rays are incredible late game units for the following reasons - Zerg has nothing good to kill them with (muta expensive, corruptor lol, hydras die to everything) - They do full damage to Ultra and Broods - Are really useful against both Broods and Ultras - Speedrays are amazing harass tools (can shut down expos, kill drones, tech etc) - They force hydras/mutas which are both gas intensive, the zerg wants to be spending that gas on ultra or BL To top it all off, they complement a CSS or IST army really well independently of late game so around 150 food you can slap down two stargates and pump Voids without worrying about whether they will be countered by something (because there isn't an excellent counter to them!). If the Zerg is going Ultra, cut Stalkers and add Zealots and if he's going Broods continue the Stalker production. Also, getting speed unlocks the mighty Mothership. Laugh all you want at how useless you think it is, but getting a Mothership forces the Zerg to either a) target fire the Mothership before killing your army (i.e. a 400/400 PDD which has vortex) b) Get overseers (which is annoying) In either case the Mothership augments the power of your Zealot/Colossus/Stalker/Void Ray or Zealot/Stalker/Immortal/Templar/Void Ray ball tenfold. It can make all the difference in a 200/200 fight, trust me. Void Rays are far from useless | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
On November 12 2010 00:23 Spiegel wrote: The voidray is the highest DPS FOR FOOD unit in the game. that is a strong niche to have. Ok well it may not be true I read that somewhere and it sounded true enough. I would love for someone to correct me with proof.^ what? no. pretty sure a stimmed marine is. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine 6 damage for 1 food every .57 seconds. that's 10.52 damage per second on average, * 3 marines = 31.5~ damage per second approx. Void ray: Against non-armored targets Stage 1: 6(+1) dmg / 0.6sec = 10.00 dps (+1.67 per upgrade) Stage 3: 8(+1) dmg / 0.6sec = 13.33 dps (+1.67 per upgrade) Against armored targets Stage 1: 10(+1) dmg / 0.6sec = 16.67 dps (+1.67 per upgrade) Stage 3: 16(+2) dmg / 0.6sec = 26.67 dps (+3.33 per upgrade) So even against a void ray's optimal target at stage 3 charge, marine still out dps's. and marine costs soooooo much less. cracklings actually might be higher dps / per food | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On November 12 2010 00:23 Spiegel wrote: The voidray is the highest DPS FOR FOOD unit in the game. that is a strong niche to have. Ok well it may not be true I read that somewhere and it sounded true enough. I would love for someone to correct me with proof.I believe that still belongs to the Stimmed Marine. Something retarded like 11dps and each +1 adds another 2dps. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On November 12 2010 00:44 Jermstuddog wrote: I believe that still belongs to the Stimmed Marine. Something retarded like 11dps and each +1 adds another 2dps. What really? The Crackling doesn't beat the marine in terms of DPS/Food? Really? Well certainly the Baneling does. Kind of hard to beat Infinity. | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
On November 12 2010 00:23 Spiegel wrote: The voidray is the highest DPS FOR FOOD unit in the game. that is a strong niche to have. Ok well it may not be true I read that somewhere and it sounded true enough. I would love for someone to correct me with proof.Not trou in the slightest. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
What really? The Crackling doesn't beat the marine in terms of DPS/Food? Really? Actually it definitely does. With the adrenal upgrade, Zerglings attack once every .587 seconds, which comes out to 1.7 attacks per second per Zergling. Zerglings do 5(+1) damage per an attack. 5*1.7 is 8.5 dps per Zerglins. Since Zerglings are only .5 food, that means they do 17 dps per 1 food. Each upgrade adds 3.4 dps per 1 food. However... Zerglins are incredibly low hp and melee only. Typically, they will die faster than marines, and fewer of them will be able to attack at once, and they are less versatile. So yes, in theory Cracklings are the highest dps per food in the game by far. However, in practice it doesn't actually play out that way since attacking with 100% of your Ling force simultaneously is very hard to do, focus firing is much harder than with marines, and the Lings will be dying off very quickly. edit: and hell, if you're gonna go that far... Banelings are 20 dps splash per .5 food, or 40 dps for every 1 food. So they are the highest dps per food unit in the game (not counting non-food units like Broodlings and Infested Terrans). However, they only get one attack. Basically, dps/food is a really, really reductive way to analyze units that ignores a ton of other important factors. But this is getting OT... Back to topic. As Plexa points out, Void Rays are terrific against Zerg Hive Tech, and none of the Zerg counters are especially effective. Hydras die if you blow on them hard, Corruptors suck against Voids, Mutas are too expensive to be cost efficient except in large numbers, and if you use your Voids to force them to pull their mutas away from their main army then you've already severely hurt the Zerg player. Plus, since the patch Voids are excellent harass tools in the same mold as mutas. That is, they do decent damage up front, so even without worrying about getting charge you can just dart in, deal some damage and leave before they get past your shields. It forces your opponent to builds mutas/corruptors and then separate them from their main force, without using them for harassment (if a Zerg player is building mutas and can't use them either with his army or to harass their opponent, they are not happy campers), or they build Hydras, which just suck regardless. | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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arterian
Canada1157 Posts
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Friend23
Poland270 Posts
On November 11 2010 20:52 Friend23 wrote: Also I have a question to You and if You or somebody else who know the numbers could answer me I would be thankful. In current patch, with no damage upgrades, the damage is as follows: L1 = 6 +4 to armored L2 = 6 +4 to armored L3 = 8 +8 to armored (I figured it out out of the chart in the vid) But how exactly does it change for +1 air, for +2 air, for +3 air? heard somewhere than +1 gives a difference so that L2 has higher damage than L1. If somebody could clearly answer what is the damage on each level for each damage upgrade, it would be great. so nobody knows how it exactly is? | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19028 Posts
On November 12 2010 00:41 DuneBug wrote: ^ what? no. pretty sure a stimmed marine is. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine 6 damage for 1 food every .57 seconds. that's 10.52 damage per second on average, * 3 marines = 31.5~ damage per second approx. Void ray: Against non-armored targets Stage 1: 6(+1) dmg / 0.6sec = 10.00 dps (+1.67 per upgrade) Stage 3: 8(+1) dmg / 0.6sec = 13.33 dps (+1.67 per upgrade) Against armored targets Stage 1: 10(+1) dmg / 0.6sec = 16.67 dps (+1.67 per upgrade) Stage 3: 16(+2) dmg / 0.6sec = 26.67 dps (+3.33 per upgrade) So even against a void ray's optimal target at stage 3 charge, marine still out dps's. and marine costs soooooo much less. cracklings actually might be higher dps / per food The Void Ray damage in Liquipedia is outdated. | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On November 11 2010 21:05 Woony wrote: Voidrays are terrible as a part of a main army, they are expensive, fragile and are terribly cost efficient. The fact that you need to get Stargate tech to get them doesn't help. Didn't NexGenius use Voidrays as part of his main army early game vs. Terran in one game during GSL2? And he won that game? Guess I'll have to find it. I'm pretty sure it was Nexgenius. If it wasn't him, it was one of the other few toss players that made it somewhat far. It was impressive to watch... I figured Void Rays were useless as a part of your main army just like you, but it was a good show. They really do kill normal ground units at a decent speed now without having to charge. | ||
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Electrolyte
England8 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Banelings are 20 dps splash per .5 food, or 40 dps for every 1 food. So they are the highest dps per food unit in the game (not counting non-food units like Broodlings and Infested Terrans). However, they only get one attack. Dude, it's a baneling. It doesn't deal "40 damage every second." Not only is it splash, but it doesn't do "damage per second." All of a Baneling's damage is instantaneous. It has infinite damage per second. So yes, in theory Cracklings are the highest dps per food in the game by far. However, in practice it doesn't actually play out that way since attacking with 100% of your Ling force simultaneously is very hard to do, focus firing is much harder than with marines, and the Lings will be dying off very quickly. Okay, good. Because if cracklings didn't beat marines dps/foodwise then zerglings would be ridiculously terrible. | ||
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Lavitage
United States71 Posts
On November 12 2010 05:29 Electrolyte wrote: How do you charge a Void Ray before it goes in battle? Shoot either some destructible rocks, or something you own (a proxy building, a hallucination, an actual unit, whatever.) | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
Its also important to note that while the void ray is powerful, its very very expensive to get. Stargates are expensive buildings and take a long time to build so you can't pump out void rays like you can muta or banshees. | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On November 12 2010 05:51 DoubleReed wrote: Dude, it's a baneling. It doesn't deal "40 damage every second." Not only is it splash, but it doesn't do "damage per second." All of a Baneling's damage is instantaneous. It has infinite damage per second. How on earth does that prove it has 'infinite' damage per second? | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On November 12 2010 09:44 Dakkas wrote: How on earth does that prove it has 'infinite' damage per second? Okay, it does 20 damage in one second. But actually it deals all its damage in a half second, so its more like 20 damage in half a second, so thats 40 DPS. No wait, it's actually like it deals all its damage in a quarter second, so it should be 80 DPS. etc. etc. It deals all its damage upfront. It takes no time to deal damage. DPS stands for Damage Per Second. Therefore its DPS is infinite. It's actually a good reason why banelings was so underrated at first. The fact is that it can neutralize large portions of an army incredibly quickly. Unlike every other unit, it deals all its damage upfront. | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
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Grond
599 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:54 bobucles wrote: So the general consensus is that the void ray WAS broken. Now it can actually be used at level 1 charge without instantly forfeiting the game. I think the void ray design is still pretty flawed. It's made to destroy large targets, but offers no ability that excels at killing large targets! Most battles are too high paced for the void ray to ramp up, so it never sees its full potential. Multiple void rays actually reduce each other's damage, giving less time for a full charge. The health/DPS of the void ray can not really be balanced against heavy units or light units. If it does crazy damage, it kills everything. If it can't deal heavy damage, it fails at killing large targets. High health and low health don't change that simple fact. Maybe the attack should be shifted to be more +armor at the cost of base damage, but that still makes it good against small armored units. Another option is to change its weapon to +massive and +structure bonus, so it fails against small targets altogether. The acid spores from broodwar made big ships tremble before the swarm. If the void ray provided some sort of stacking debuff, beefy targets would naturally suffer more than small targets. Which is what the void ray SHOULD be doing on the field. The debuff could be armor reduction, it could be a snare, it could reduce the unit's fire rate. Anything of that nature would ruin a large unit, but be pointless to waste on a marine. Not correct all all. It was nerfed for team game. It was an almost useless unit in 1x1, now it's a completely useless unit. My main issue is its is unbelievably hypocritical to state that charged Void Rays killed stuff too fast but stimmed Marauders are fine. | ||
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
Void rays in particular are pretty bad - for their supply, they are ok, but for cost, they are terrible, worthless units. They pretty much lose to equal cost of any unit that shoots up except for thors. Obviously as the battle gets larger, the void rays do better since more of them live long enough to charge up, but really, when are you going to have more than a handful? | ||
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brainpower
United States233 Posts
One nice thing about void rays is their durability compared to other air units. When a handful of mutas or banshees reach a mineral line, and find that there is some sort of stationary defense, they are generally not able to do much damage. On the other hand, if 2 voidrays find a base defended by just 2 photon cannons, they get a free 300 minerals worth of buildings, and open the way for the phoenix to come in and lift up probes. I do agree with some other posters about the difficulty of actually building up a charge now. It is nearly impossible to get charge against a bio ball of marines/marauders, simply because they don't have enough HP to charge up on. The same is true for roaches to an extent, though they aren't nearly as bad. | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
Okay, it does 20 damage in one second. But actually it deals all its damage in a half second, so its more like 20 damage in half a second, so thats 40 DPS. No wait, it's actually like it deals all its damage in a quarter second, so it should be 80 DPS. etc. etc. It deals all its damage upfront. It takes no time to deal damage. DPS stands for Damage Per Second. Therefore its DPS is infinite. It's actually a good reason why banelings was so underrated at first. The fact is that it can neutralize large portions of an army incredibly quickly. Unlike every other unit, it deals all its damage upfront. Your logic doesn't work. First off, infinite damage would mean that it kills everything, which it doesn't do in the slightest. Secondly how on earth does doing all its damage upfront meant it takes 'no time'? Your reasoning for 'infinite' damage is solely on the fact that it's a suicidal unit without considering how much damage it actually does. The baneling could do either 1 or 6000000000000 damage upon exploding and using your 'logic', it would do 'infinite' damage If anything, you example just proves that you can't use DPS to measure suicidal units Seriously, I'm terrible at maths and I can see the gaping holes in your statement | ||
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