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LWr
60 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:19 ejac wrote:the fact that a void ray cannot beat a queen 1v1 now. Could you please refrain from spreading misinformation like that? A void ray still beats a queen 1v1. 2v2 it doesn't because of transfuse, but that was still the case pre-1.1.2 | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
That could really make them a lot less powerful without actually changing stats like this (im not complaining or anything, but im curious). Making it so that an army of VRs could be escaped (unlike now where they just hunt you down while killing you) might be an indirect nerf because you could retreat and try to wait out their charge if they got charged up, only to engage a few seconds after they lose their charge. I guess that wouldnt deal with VRs in bases, but honestly, if youve got VRs in your base and cant deal with them, youre pretty much dead already. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:14 LegendaryZ wrote: I don't think this is really that meaningful at all since it doesn't really take into account how VR's were actually used in real game scenarios. I think the point is that Blizzard intended for the unit to be used one way and players were using it in a way that Blizzard didn't intend. Another way of saying "using it in a way that Blizzard didn't intend" is "abuse." In the way VRs were being "abused" in that sense, then yes, it's a massive nerf, but the real issue is that VRs shouldn't have been used that way in the first place. It's more of a fix than anything else. Abuse aside, the intended niche that Blizzard planned for the VR (counter to high-hitpoint armored and massive units) isn't currently being effectively filled by the VR. A fix I would have proposed to the VR, in addition to the change of damage, would be re-introducing a 3rd level that would add another +10 to massive units (similar to the corruptor). The bonus could be against armored instead if necessary, since I'm pretty confident there isn't a massive unit in the game that isn't armored as well. At least this would give the VR some use against ultralisks and thors if their DPS was respectable. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:21 travis wrote: Honestly I think the biggest effect of this void ray change is that my opponents don't really have to worry so much about it anymore. There is no concern of "maybe he's going void ray, I need to find out or account for that". I think the biggest change to the Void Ray is that it is not nearly as beneficial to use them in silly ways now. We all enjoyed the scenes of a single charged VR in an enemy base tearing the place to shreds. I loved it, you loved it, everybody loved it. But having a unit that by game design was best used if you attacked your own units before moving in is silly game design. It was effective, but it was silly. I'm pretty sure the design intention of the Void Ray was NOT to have it used like that. I think it's still too early to say whether or not VR rushes are effective or ineffective. They've been used once or twice in the GSL still. Was it Inca I think who won a game on Scrap Station with a Void Ray rush last night? Personally, I would like to see that second charge level put back in. It's got the animation for three charges, and I think the design of the unit is to have a gradually charging beam. I would be all for the damage being 6+4 at stage 1, 7+6 at stage 2 and 8+8 at stage 3. That would make them even better when attacking from no-charge, and make them do even more damage to your own stuff when you try to precharge. ALSO: On October 28 2010 09:37 Toxigen wrote: At least this would give the VR some use against ultralisks and thors if their DPS was respectable. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor so hard it isn't even funny. With no charge it almost doesn't even take hull damage before the Thor dies. | ||
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Azn_Christian
United States153 Posts
By cutting out cheese, they reduced the value of early scout and early aggression/harrass. By nurfing Vrs, they reduced the value of a toss airforce to ~0, and it never was really a viable/transition-able in any matchup already. Also, made it much less micro- intensive, since you don't really have to keep hitting an object/vr every 5 secs while on route to enemy base, since it is not essential to charge it up. | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
I think it's still too early to say whether or not VR rushes are effective or ineffective. They've been used once or twice in the GSL still. Was it Inca I think who won a game on Scrap Station with a Void Ray rush last night? The voidrays barely had an effect on that match. Not a single ray got charged, Inca just had a bigger army than the Terran, period. But having a unit that by game design was best used if you attacked your own units before moving in is silly game design. It was effective, but it was silly. I'm pretty sure the design intention of the Void Ray was NOT to have it used like that. Except it wasn't Silly. Artosis and Tasteless agreed it was the best designed unit in the game (Artosis literally said that) in GSL 1 during the PvP between IncA and another Protoss, where they were going back and forth with pre-charged Voidrays. | ||
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DamageInq
United States283 Posts
VR aren't made to be thrown in your army, they will be focus fired down before getting a charge off, and their DPS isn't cost effective for head-on battles even vs armored units. Nice video though.. it's kinda hard to explain to some people how the nerf was quite a big buff too. Although it changes the role of the unit, atm players are yet to find good use of it. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
Void Ray Damage does not suck: Phoenix (vs Light): 18.2 DPS, 9.1 DPS/supply VR (Charged, vs Armored): 26.7 DPS, 8.9 DPS/supply Viking (vs Armored): 14.0 DPS, 7.0 DPS/supply Banshee: 19.2 DPS, 6.4 DPS/supply BL + 11 Broodling melees: 25.6 DPS, 6.4 DPS/supply BC (vs Ground): 35.6 DPS, 5.9 DPS/supply VR (Charged, vs Unarmored): 13.3 DPS, 4.4 DPS/supply Mutalisk + 2 bounces: 8.5 DPS, 4.3 DPS/supply Corruptor (vs Massive): 11.6 DPS, 3.9 DPS/supply Interceptor (approx): 3.3 DPS, 3.3 DPS/supply Mothership (lol): 8.1 DPS, 1.0 DPS/supply For comparison's sake, the highest DPS/supply ground units in the game (Not counting special abilities). None of them are capable of attacking air. Crackling: 8.6 DPS, 17.2 DPS/supply Reaper (vs Light): 16.4 DPS, 16.4 DPS/supply Zergling: 7.2 DPS, 14.4 DPS/supply Dark Templar: 26.6 DPS, 13.3 DPS/supply The pre-patch charged voidray did 41.7 DPS to armored, or 13.9 DPS/supply. That's higher DPSS than a dark templar, but with long range and ability to hit both ground + air. | ||
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thesauceishot
Canada333 Posts
On October 28 2010 09:12 Tray wrote: As mentioned voids are completely non viable now. They were never overpowered. They were devistating if you didn't scout and let them get into your base where they could charge before you engaged them. Again the problem with these numbers is that in 90%+ of all void ray situations, you're using them ONLY charged. For this reason this nerf was a hugely significant one and Void Rays are no longer used in competitive play. Nice looking spreadsheet though. This. They used to be able to win games if you didn't scout them and didn't react in time, but now they can't. They were a very unique unit, but now they're just a mediocre unit without any special capabilities. Mediocre damage, slow moving. | ||
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us.insurgency
United States330 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:00 TheFinalWord wrote: Yes you can't use voids like you did before, but that isn't a bad thing, they are now far far more useful in a straight up fight, I think it will take some time for people to get used to it. There`s will never be a reason to use them in a straight up fight. They die in 2 seconds to anything and their DPS is not worth their cost. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
No it can't attack air or is as mobile but how often would you need an air to air unit that has high DPS against armored air units? Corrupter? Just build more stalkers Viking? More stalkers ???? And some more stalkers....... IMHO the voidray has no place in competitive play anymore. Once again blizzard balancing around low league players and other than 1v1.... | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
Nonzero > zero. Void Rays aren't even cost effective against Roaches. Think about that for a second. | ||
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TrueProtoss
13 Posts
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johngalt90
United States357 Posts
My greatest fear of SC2 is that blizzard has foregone the notions of balance and rather utilizes patching to influence metagame and essentially turn it into an illusion of balance. i think the recent patch is a grand example of this type of error in balance. in my opinion (yes in my opinion) the subsequent zerg buffs are not a step towards balanced. in fact i believe this patch implemented imba to boost zerg numbers and therefore satisfy the objectives of spreadsheets and data collection. Now blizz can say its balanced because zergs are good now even though i feel it is disproportionately slow. already the immediate improvement of zerg suggests that this forward trend of success would continue on to dominance. it is for the previous reason i dissapprove of the nerfbat on the voidray. agree with or disagree with my analysis of zerg is irrelevant, you can put in any example that you like. so please dont turn it into race imba. it was simply the best way to make my point but it isnt the point of the post. and finally just wanted to add uncharged dps of voidray would be considered incidental dps and charged effective dps. we are only concerned with dps of the charge in the case of the voidray. I would have been happier with 4 supply VR's than this. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:28 us.insurgency wrote: There`s will never be a reason to use them in a straight up fight. They die in 2 seconds to anything and their DPS is not worth their cost. Compare 2 stalkers and a void ray. void ray slightly more expensive, less supply same damage against armoured uncharged, more damage charged, immune to ground attacks, more mobile. Void rays can actually do something if they are not charged now, if a viking catches a void ray if it was uncharged before it might be close, but now it will demolish it. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:53 TheFinalWord wrote: Compare 2 stalkers and a void ray. void ray slightly more expensive, less supply same damage against armoured uncharged, more damage charged, immune to ground attacks, more mobile. Void rays can actually do something if they are not charged now, if a viking catches a void ray if it was uncharged before it might be close, but now it will demolish it. 50 gas difference is a lot. It's also a lot easier to pay 50 gas 3 times than it is to pay 150 gas 1 time. Stalkers build instantly while voids take a long goddamn time. Stalkers also require almost no tech while going voids forces you into a single tech path. You can't go void/templar for obvious reasons. Voids have no role anymore. They were already a gimmicky unit before hand, but now, that one gimmick has been killed because Blizzard isn't creative enough. I figured out that you can charge voids on my own units within a day of seeing the unit. | ||
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