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On September 24 2010 15:02 CatfooD wrote:
I think they should remove the visual indicator that the Terran even scanned anywhere at all. Why should an enemy be able to know that I just spent my energy on a scan instead of a mule when I can't tell if they are double chrono'ing Void Rays or Probes in my base.
Especially when the enemy gets to know exactly what I saw in their base to then make tactical decisions about. I scan a Zerg and see a Spire building. Zerg cancels Spire and puts down a Hydra den. 5 minutes later I lose Hydra/Ling > Thor/Marine combo or whatever because Zerg had the advantage of seeing my scan.
Same when a Terran scans the edge of your base midgame. Expect Dropships down the side of your base 10 seconds later. Protoss saw my scan and moves army in the way, so 10 Stalkers > 4 Dropships and I lose because they saw my scan.
Why should a Terran be at a disadvantage for needing to show their tactical decisions to the enemy when Protoss and Zerg don't have to. If people think the scan radius needs to be smaller, or the cost raised to 75 energy or something, that's just a different discussion in my opinion.
Should cloaked units act as though they did in WC3? (completely invisible to the enemy), or still shimmer on the terrain to them? If stay the same, then people that have to use low/medium graphics settings are fucked. How about people that simply didn't see the scan go down in their base because they were pre-occupied, or a low level player and didn't see? These are all important issues.
Ok, this other end of the extreme is also going a bit overboard. I think Terran also has the most useful "scout" ability, now if you give the opponent no chance to tell if they have been scanned? That's just even worse. A player must be given some sort of indication that the enemy knows what he is doing, so he has a chance to counter act that, or just continue on through with his original strategy. This is in no way a "disadvantage". You know how happy zergs would be if they could scan?
Scanning for the most part is seeing what your opponent is currently doing. Most of the time, you're gonna scan them when they already have a committed army. You at least have the option of scanning. Zerg and protoss have to poke around with overlords and observers and risk losing them while scouting nothing. And whose to say that Terran can't just as easily switch their tech if they get scouted? I mean, it's not like it's hard since Terran have the tech lab to build everything ever.
And just because you scanned somewhere for a drop and see that it's safe, it doesn't mean that you SHOULD be granted all immunity and the drop should work. How fair is that? A free "this drop will be safe no matter what now"? While voidrays, phoenixes, mutas, all have to poke in and risk taking a lot of hits without any intel? Come on now. If the opponent is fast enough to react to a scan and drop, then they deserve to lessen the blow of the drop. And if it's really true that everyone at your level is good enough to react to a drop, maybe try a little mind game and scan somewhere that you're not dropping and drop elsewhere. You don't have to be overly predictable with your strats.
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I think it's fine the way it is (I play toss). Part of the fun is the whole "did he see it or not? Should I keep going with this or switch to something else?" feeling you get when the scan goes down. Just like when a turret kills an obs, the terran has to think "damn, what did he see before I found that? Which direction did it come from?". I dunno, i find that a fun dynamic actually.
I wouldn't be too opposed to making it bigger though, or maybe a dotted line radius like for tanks and turrets and stuff. I agree, it is a bit counter-intuitive for new players. A minor, yet valid complaint.
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I would say just get used to how big it actually is in relation to the animation.
SC BW did fine with the little tiny blue swirl after all
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot  sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
Ummm he never made a point about imba, all he said was that the scan animation should be up to size with the area it actually reveals. you're getting a bit too defensive.
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Some people here referred to the scan in BW but they forgot to mention that the terran player in Brood War also couldn't see the area he wanted to scan, correct me if i'm wrong. So maybe it would be fair not to make scan animation larger, but to make that huge red pointer smaller?
As protos player, i don't have much trouble with the scan, every time i see he is scanning me i just try to keep in mind that the actual scan area is bigger then the animation and so i can figure what he is able to see.
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No I think that the scanning in SC2 is much more obvious than the BW scan. the scanning image stays up for the whole time the scan is happening so you have alot of time to spot it.
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i believe the scan animation is even smaller for BW
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On September 24 2010 11:43 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Stop citing BW, people. We don't care how tough it was for you guys to see scans. It's irrelevant here. The game is new, it shouldn't be like BW. It should be better.
I understand why people will want to cite situations from Brood War. Things you were always used to in BW will basically always affect something you would get used to in SC2. But with that said, I return with the fact that not everyone has experience in SC2 and/or BW (I, myself, didn't play much ladder in BW and I've been able to hold up my rank though) and it would help both the players who aren't used to it, and the players who haven't played it.
On September 24 2010 15:02 CatfooD wrote:
I think they should remove the visual indicator that the Terran even scanned anywhere at all. Why should an enemy be able to know that I just spent my energy on a scan instead of a mule when I can't tell if they are double chrono'ing Void Rays or Probes in my base.
Especially when the enemy gets to know exactly what I saw in their base to then make tactical decisions about. I scan a Zerg and see a Spire building. Zerg cancels Spire and puts down a Hydra den. 5 minutes later I lose Hydra/Ling > Thor/Marine combo or whatever because Zerg had the advantage of seeing my scan.
Same when a Terran scans the edge of your base midgame. Expect Dropships down the side of your base 10 seconds later. Protoss saw my scan and moves army in the way, so 10 Stalkers > 4 Dropships and I lose because they saw my scan.
Why should a Terran be at a disadvantage for needing to show their tactical decisions to the enemy when Protoss and Zerg don't have to. If people think the scan radius needs to be smaller, or the cost raised to 75 energy or something, that's just a different discussion in my opinion.
Should cloaked units act as though they did in WC3? (completely invisible to the enemy), or still shimmer on the terrain to them? If stay the same, then people that have to use low/medium graphics settings are fucked. How about people that simply didn't see the scan go down in their base because they were pre-occupied, or a low level player and didn't see? These are all important issues.
Removing the texture of the scan is simply stupid. That's like saying you should be able to walk into my base with an SCV without me knowing you were even there. This would completely remove the need for Terran to scout with SCVs early game/mid game.
The whole reason why I suggested the change in the texture was because we should be able to know what you saw. The whole point in that is so that I know if I need to change tech. The same already applies to normal scouting anyways, if I used a sacrificial overlord to scout your base in the middle of a game, and saw you building Thors against my Mutas, how do I know I'm not going to end up losing to MM with Tanks because I changed to Hydra with Lings? For what reason should Terran have the advantage to avoid that situation?
Protoss and Zerg players DO need to make our own tactical decisions, you talk as though we never have a situation in which Terran players seem to "suffer" from even though we also have it all the time.
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I knew it was larger than the scan animation but I didn't realize it was that much larger. That said, I sorta like the notion of "did he see me or not?". I felt the same with in BW with the little bubbles. It's the same feeling I get when I finally notice the observer flying around and kill it ("what exactly did he see?").
It adds some mind games to the game and makes it more interesting. The best thing about the OP is just showing how big the scan area really is for those that didn't know. But I don't think it should be changed.
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make this game more easy please i want to be able to easily win yes please this game is too hard
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Would be more fair if the graphic was more exact. It's too large a glob to to be realistically judged by the human eye, especially with the 3D effect being what it is.
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Just do few dry runs and memorize how large the scan is... or more precicely how much larger it is than the actual scan texture.
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I absolutely agree with the Op. Scans should reflect the radius of what is revealed and not a bit less like is the case now. This is pretty important in knowing if he saw your hidden tech and if you should cancel to fake him out.
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It should have the ring around it like Siege tank range does
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
Keitzer: what im saying is... post a full screenshot.. not half an image ... it's misleading (now looking at it... it kinda looks like terran's vision)
I'm going to risk my first warning/ban to tell you that you are a complete idiot.
He didn't post a false image, and he didn't call it imba.
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Erm, just because the scan sees more then the graphic doesnt mean that you should be able to see the whole graphic.
If that is the case then I want to be able to see the detection range of your overseers, the range of photon cannons and the range of turrets and ravens on my screen as a big circle too.
Imagine the graphic as a huge ass unit, the range outside of the graphic is the same distance from the edge of a unit to how far it can see. that is why the terran can see the spire.
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let's not make it so that the scanner animation = visible area. Eventually the better players will be able to gauge the visible area, while the shitty players wont. how bout we stop suggesting to spoon-feed the casual player, and let the gap between the dedicated and casuals grow?
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I think the main problem is that the scan animation gives the impression that it gives the area of the scan. As bad as the "water bubbles" of bw looked, they at least made it clear that the scanned area was larger than the animation. I'm not suggesting we spoon-feed the casual... however, you may never learn to guess what the terran saw until you eventually realize the animation is misleading.
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the animation would take up way way too much space if it covered the entire scanned area
imagine having your entire base covered in that yellow circling thingy, would be annoying as hell
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I agree with OP, people who are arguing an overlord/observer/or any unit scouting doesnt have a radius which they have vision of. But you forget that that can be stopped, by a turret, by units... EVEN by just looking at the mini map, you can see when/where they are scouting..
The minimap doesn't show you where they are scanning at all, Scan is an unstoppable reveal of an area, no matter how many turrets you have you cant stop a scan (unlike an observer).
He is just asking for a visual that represents what they saw. What is wrong with that? Tanks/spine crawlers/cannons/SENSOR TOWERS have a radius of what they can see, seems fair scan should be represented the same way.
in no way is he asking for a nerf of any kind.
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EPT
