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It wasn't that apparent to me for awhile whenever I played against Terran, but recently I've noticed I've lost some games thinking my Terran opponent was NOT able to see my tech. The texture representing the scan seems a bit too small for the actual scan. I believe that I should be able to know exactly how much a Terran player has seen of my base. There are times where I'll debate to myself whether or not he has seen my tech. Here's a pretty good and recent example:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Another minor issue with the texture is how it is possibly (unconfirmed) "hovering" over the intended point. You can see in this screenshot (Provided by JinDesu) that the bottom of the scan looks to be larger than the top of the scan. This can also cause confusion with what is actually seen by the Terran player.
+ Show Spoiler +
Am I the only player who thinks the texture for Scanner Sweep should perhaps been enlarged to better represent the scan? What are your thoughts on the scale of the texture and do you think it should be changed?
!! IMPORTANT !!
Do not misunderstand my argument as something similar to hiding tech. Hiding tech has nothing to do with my argument, it is simply a piece of information that is intended to show you why the scan's texture should represent the actual radius of the effect (In a formal essay, I guess you could call it a proof). I repeat, the argument has nothing to do with hiding tech.
Check out the forum post in the official Blizzard SC2 forums!
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I think it would be reasonable... But its still much better when you compare it to the little "water bubbles" from SC1. 
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interesting.
I never play T, so I figured the scan icon was more or less the visable area. Nice to know this. I also agree that the scan icon should represent the actual visible area.
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i think it's fine, just use a creep tumor and build it a little further out
most terrans will know you're going mutas anyway when you have a lair
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Or you can generate creep from an Overlord in the corner of your base and build your spire on that creep.
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On September 24 2010 09:17 awu25 wrote:
most terrans will know you're going mutas anyway when you have a lair
Are we zergs really that predictable?
Sadly, the answer is yes.
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On September 24 2010 09:17 awu25 wrote:
i think it's fine, just use a creep tumor and build it a little further out
most terrans will know you're going mutas anyway when you have a lair
That isn't relevant.
I agree with you OP, it is a bit annoying when you see a scan go down and want to make sure that your army is out of sight and you cannot really tell all that Terran can see. Also there is no good reason that the scan's animation should not represent its size, they should certainly change the diameter of the animation to match the actual scan so you can at least know what is being seen by your opponent.
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It is true that it probably would've been better in my case to use a Creep Tumor or generate more creep, but my point is situations like in my example. If the Terran player thinks I'm trying to hide tech, and scans at the edge of my base, I'll run into the same problem if he happens to catch the tech right at the edge of his scan.
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Wow, I didn't realize it was that big of a difference. I definitely think the animation should be larger. Many times I've seen a scan and assumed my army was far enough away to not be spotted.
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Did you ever play BW? That was difficult to see and judge exactly what Terran saw.
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it takes like literally 2 seconds to get an overlord to generate creep so there is enough room for a spire.
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The screenshot is a bit deceptive since it is zoomed in. A good thing to know if they scan your main they can see all the surrounding creep. I don't think its much larger than that. Maybe replay so we can see exactly how large an area?
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On September 24 2010 09:24 TheFinalWord wrote:
The screenshot is a bit deceptive since it is zoomed in. A good thing to know if they scan your main they can see all the surrounding creep. I don't think its much larger than that. Maybe replay so we can see exactly how large an area?
The spoiler prevents the screenshot from stretching the forum, I figured a few people wouldn't want a 1680x1050 screenshot on their browser. You can view the full thing by right-clicking and choosing "Open in a new tab..." (May differentiate from your browser).
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seriously it should be able to show how far it goes, I'ts not about hiding tech but every other thing you can see what your opponent knows, even the observer you can see where it is, but if you don't know what he saw its and unnecesary advantage to give to the already mighty scan. I did play BW and it was hard to see but that was the only thing you got with the CC add-on now with mules and such it shouldn't be as strong IMO not a huge problem though
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I agree completely, I was really surprised when I played T how much I could see.
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In BW, it's true that the scanner thing was tiny, but there it was OBVIOUS that the scanner could see more than the little bubble things. The new scanner sweep shows an actual area being scanned, so it's fairly unintuitive for the vision area to be massively larger than the animation indicates. It's not a huge deal, but why should the game be less intuitive than it could be?
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I'd like it if there were a more subtle graphic showing the exact range, although to a certain extent that is a skill element of the game =/
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Might be just me, but does anybody else feel the Terran scan radius is just too big? =/
Hiding a tech in your main at certain maps doesn't even feel possible at times..
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On September 24 2010 09:22 OPSavioR wrote:
it takes like literally 2 seconds to get an overlord to generate creep so there is enough room for a spire.
Assume that he does build it far out with an Overlord, and Terran scans somewhere in between. The issue that he doesn't know if Terran saw the tech is still unaddressed. This technique can be helpful, but ignores the problem that the OP has, and can't affect, say, positioning of burrowed Roaches/Infestors or DTs after a scan goes down.
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bro
wtf kinda screenshot is that
you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot 
sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
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IMO hidden tech strategy (among other things) for zerg would be improved if queens could lay creep tumors anywhere. Daughter tumors would have to be placed on creep but not the first ones.
Currently you would have to use overlord excrete creep, but that requires lair tech.
Also on the point of the scanner. It's almost too bad that you can pan the camera up and down. whenever I go ultralisks or brood lords I try to crowd overlords over the cavern/greater spire, but it can still be seen by paning.
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On September 24 2010 09:20 Moa wrote:
I agree with you OP, it is a bit annoying when you see a scan go down and want to make sure that your army is out of sight and you cannot really tell all that Terran can see. Also there is no good reason that the scan's animation should not represent its size, they should certainly change the diameter of the animation to match the actual scan so you can at least know what is being seen by your opponent.
This.
User was warned for this post
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In the interest of newer players, changing it would be good. But for everyone else, you kind of learn how big it is after a bit of trial and error.
Watch replays often.
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
Bro, please don't jump to conclusions. There are two things in that photo that prove it is not on "View All". First, the bottom right: it says bubO, not Everyone. Second, you can't see the vision of the overlords at the edge of the creep. If you didn't view the whole image enough to see the bottom right, the 2nd proof is still valid with the overlord right above the spire.
Don't look at an image for less than 5 seconds and call it false.
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
wtf r u talking about "you're viewing all the vision", bottom right you can clearly see that he's looking through red (terrans) point of view
when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false comment.
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I wouldn't have a problem with a more accurate scan animation, and I doubt many Terrans would, but at the same time, how hard is it to start up a custom game as Terran and just get a feel for it yourself? That's what I do for other races mechanics that I'm unsure of.
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Then when a scan covers your entire screen when you see it you'll complain that you can't see anything under the scan. All you need to get used to is the fact of how large the radius really is. Most scans the other player won't even see.
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On September 24 2010 10:17 dhe95 wrote:
Then when a scan covers your entire screen when you see it you'll complain that you can't see anything under the scan. All you need to get used to is the fact of how large the radius really is. Most scans the other player won't even see.
Actually, knowing the radius of scan visibility could be easily remedied by having a range indicator show up when the scan goes down that looks exactly like the range indicator for units. You know, the circle of arrows.
In this case, blizzard could use whatever cute animation they wanted while retaining the important information.
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On September 24 2010 10:17 dhe95 wrote:
Then when a scan covers your entire screen when you see it you'll complain that you can't see anything under the scan. All you need to get used to is the fact of how large the radius really is. Most scans the other player won't even see.
That could easily be fixed by making it a bit more transparent.
But yes, it's not very hard to learn how big it is.
I think as a rule of thumb, it's about the size of one full hatchery's creep spread.
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On September 24 2010 10:12 Keshoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba Bro, please don't jump to conclusions. There are two things in that photo that prove it is not on "View All". First, the bottom right: it says bubO, not Everyone. Second, you can't see the vision of the overlords at the edge of the creep. If you didn't view the whole image enough to see the bottom right, the 2nd proof is still valid with the overlord right above the spire. Don't look at an image for less than 5 seconds and call it false.
the screenshot posted only shows the left side of the screen (aka.. i cant see the bottom right)
what im saying is... post a full screenshot.. not half an image ... it's misleading (now looking at it... it kinda looks like terran's vision)
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its a full image, scroll over? :D :D
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ZV4aN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/mE58W.jpg)
There, you guys happy now? Full screenshot? Note the diff from the terran scanner icon to what the other player will see? Note the sheer size difference?
Click the picture, then do "view image" for maximum size.
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On September 24 2010 09:19 DTown wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:17 awu25 wrote:
most terrans will know you're going mutas anyway when you have a lair Are we zergs really that predictable? Sadly, the answer is yes.
Not like we have a lot of tricks up our sleeves to make us unpredictable. What other unit would we rush lair for? Hydras?
Muta are pretty necessary in ZvT just to shut down Terran harassment options. If you don't have muta, he can mess with you all day with drop ships.
So we're predictable in the fact that if they see lair we are very likely to be getting the most (read: only) effective mid game unit in our entire arsenal vs Terran.
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On September 24 2010 10:27 Keitzer wrote:
the screenshot posted only shows the left side of the screen (aka.. i cant see the bottom right)
what im saying is... post a full screenshot.. not half an image ... it's misleading (now looking at it... it kinda looks like terran's vision)
there should be a scrollbar dude.
@thread: i don't know... i think the OP proves a valid point but it's not bothering me too much. it can also be considered skillful to estimate/know how far the actual scan reaches, so i think i wouldn't really mind them keeping it as it is.
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You make it sound impossible to know what the Terran sees when he scans just because the spinning texture doesn't cover the whole revealed area. You can still test out in single player or otherwise what the revealed area is with respect to the spinning texture so that the next time a Terran scans, you know exactly what is revealed and what is not. It's the same way you eventually learn the radii of tank siege range and xelnaga tower sight range over time.
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On September 24 2010 10:29 JinDesu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There, you guys happy now? Full screenshot? Note the diff from the terran scanner icon to what the other player will see? Note the sheer size difference? Click the picture, then do "view image" for maximum size.
=) didnt mean to cause havoc....
but anyways... i noticed this back in beta, but wasn't 100% sure of it....
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On September 24 2010 10:30 FiBsTeR wrote:
You make it sound impossible to know what the Terran sees when he scans just because the spinning texture doesn't cover the whole revealed area. You can still test out in single player or otherwise what the revealed area is with respect to the spinning texture so that the next time a Terran scans, you know exactly what is revealed and what is not. It's the same way you eventually learn the radii of tank siege range and xelnaga tower sight range over time.
It's true that it's always something you "get used to" over time. But I'm sure there are things Blizzard will want to change to lower the learning curve. It's already big enough, changing the texture of the scan will not only help current SC2 players (who are currently not used to it), it can most likely help players who are just joining the community.
That aside, even thought you're used to it, I'm sure there will be times where you will underestimate/overestimate the area of effect. It's pretty much impossible to be right all the time.
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On September 24 2010 10:40 Keshoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:30 FiBsTeR wrote:
You make it sound impossible to know what the Terran sees when he scans just because the spinning texture doesn't cover the whole revealed area. You can still test out in single player or otherwise what the revealed area is with respect to the spinning texture so that the next time a Terran scans, you know exactly what is revealed and what is not. It's the same way you eventually learn the radii of tank siege range and xelnaga tower sight range over time. It's true that it's always something you "get used to" over time. But I'm sure there are things Blizzard will want to change to lower the learning curve. It's already big enough, changing the texture of the scan will not only help current SC2 players (who are currently not used to it), it can most likely help players who are just joining the community. That aside, even thought you're used to it, I'm sure there will be times where you will underestimate/overestimate the area of effect. It's pretty much impossible to be right all the time.
As far as I can say - if you see the scan, center it, and basically your entire screen is what they can see. It's off by like what, 50-100 pixels, but that's basically it.
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Does anyone know the actual range of sight that is given when a scan goes off? like from the epicenter or from the outer ring of the texture? That'd at least be nice to know.
Edit: Jindesu kind of hit on my question right as I posted. Sorry :-p
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Yeah, i think it would be the more "logical" thing to do
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I thought people were already aware of how much it saw. However, if the animation were enlarged so people could see what the terran saw would that be a bad thing. Not really.
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I knew there was a difference (esp as I play Terran), but I'd never realised it was that big. Now I know many times my army has been in plain site of Terran. That small scanner animation really does give a false sense of.. security.
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The picture on the third page explains it all. The outer edge large red ring is view and inner circles are the sweeping animation. Its just like the nuclear little red dot that the opponent sees from their pov. Do you want that do be the same as what the T sees so it makes it completely obvious where the nuke is going. NO! Its fine as is imo.
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It's a pretty minor point, as really everyone should familiarise themselves with the abilities of all the races, even if they don't play them.
So you can get to know how big the scan radius is even without the graphic.
But you are right in that it really should be bigger, as it is almost misleadingly small. Definitely something to post on the blizzard forums as it would be quite a easy change to implement and there is no real reason not to have the graphic represent the actual size.
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On September 24 2010 09:19 DTown wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:17 awu25 wrote:
most terrans will know you're going mutas anyway when you have a lair Are we zergs really that predictable? Sadly, the answer is yes.
Or maybe hydras. xD
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On September 24 2010 11:15 Kazang wrote:
It's a pretty minor point, as really everyone should familiarise themselves with the abilities of all the races, even if they don't play them.
So you can get to know how big the scan radius is even without the graphic.
But you are right in that it really should be bigger, as it is almost misleadingly small. Definitely something to post on the blizzard forums as it would be quite a easy change to implement and there is no real reason not to have the graphic represent the actual size.
Taken your suggestion and posted it on the Blizzard SC2 forums (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628260891).
On-topic, the scan range is indeed a minor issue, but a little can mean a lot some times. As you say, it can be a little misleading: I believe the texture hovers over a bit over the intended area, so it's actually even more misleading. I noticed that in JinDesu's second screenshot of the bottom of the scanned area.
-- Edit --
I went ahead and added the above to the first post.
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I think changing the animation sounds reasonable.
It's definitely not something that should cause you to lose a game though. It's still really easy to hide tech, and to know how much area a scan reveals.
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Stop citing BW, people. We don't care how tough it was for you guys to see scans. It's irrelevant here. The game is new, it shouldn't be like BW. It should be better.
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I think the general consensus on this should be that it would make a good change, but it shouldn't be a very high priority one when there are much more important things they could be changing. It's a minor problem that has an easy workaround in that you can learn how big it is yourself quite quickly.
Changing it wouldn't disturb balance at all, but there are a lot more important things that their team could be devoting work hours to. I wouldn't mind it as a minor change in a patch later on down the road though.
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I don't think it really matters, it's not like I can see how much some Protoss observer or overload saw when they flew threw my base.
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I think it's just one of those things that you learn as you get better. The more experience you have the more accurately you'll be able to eastimate the scanner radius.
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Meh it could be worse i don't think it needs to be fixed its nice that you can't tell if we see u or not
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Not a huge deal to me, IMO. More of a gameplay mechanic you just need to get used to. If it gets changed, no big deal, but i'd rather they focus on more direct issues of balance.
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TBH, if you are going 1 base muta, you don't even need a scan to sense that coming. Seeing 2 gas before the expo is a pretty darn big sign.
But yeah, i agree that the scan sight range is kinda big, or at least isn't consistent with the graphic. Alot of top tier zergs have been getting faster queens just for creeps, this was for main mobility to surround reapers, but most zergs hide their tech somewhere on the creep.
Tip: If you really wanna go balls to the wall, after you get your lair you can poop creep, and hide it anywhere on the map. not really a fair tradeoff, but its an option.
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I think a smaller scan area would be a good nerf for terran!
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I think they should remove the visual indicator that the Terran even scanned anywhere at all. Why should an enemy be able to know that I just spent my energy on a scan instead of a mule when I can't tell if they are double chrono'ing Void Rays or Probes in my base.
Especially when the enemy gets to know exactly what I saw in their base to then make tactical decisions about. I scan a Zerg and see a Spire building. Zerg cancels Spire and puts down a Hydra den. 5 minutes later I lose Hydra/Ling > Thor/Marine combo or whatever because Zerg had the advantage of seeing my scan.
Same when a Terran scans the edge of your base midgame. Expect Dropships down the side of your base 10 seconds later. Protoss saw my scan and moves army in the way, so 10 Stalkers > 4 Dropships and I lose because they saw my scan.
Why should a Terran be at a disadvantage for needing to show their tactical decisions to the enemy when Protoss and Zerg don't have to. If people think the scan radius needs to be smaller, or the cost raised to 75 energy or something, that's just a different discussion in my opinion.
Should cloaked units act as though they did in WC3? (completely invisible to the enemy), or still shimmer on the terrain to them? If stay the same, then people that have to use low/medium graphics settings are fucked. How about people that simply didn't see the scan go down in their base because they were pre-occupied, or a low level player and didn't see? These are all important issues.
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Umm, despite not being a Terran player, I think it's perfectly fine as it is. In fact, I'm almost inclined to say that it's just way too obvious where the Terran scans. BW had the most subtle scans where you won't even notice it at points. Be thankful that Blizzard actually gives a blatantly obvious "OMG TERRAN SEES YOU" indicator.
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... Wait, Zerg have a stealthy form of scouting? Unless of course by "not showing our tactical decisions" you of course mean scouting attempts.
Overseers/Overlords aren't cloaked, and Changelings need to hatch, Keeping stuff spread out around your base prevents em cause you see em anyway. And you KNOW we cant get units up a terrans ramp cause lolwall.
The protoss have an observer, which a few turrets placed around can easily get rid of.
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On September 24 2010 11:43 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Stop citing BW, people. We don't care how tough it was for you guys to see scans. It's irrelevant here. The game is new, it shouldn't be like BW. It should be better.
I don't understand why it's not valid to cite BW. You create a game to succeed the original, of course it's valid to make some comparisons. Should be "better" is also subjective. Look at games like Perfect Dark to Perfect Dark Zero. I think it's fair to say that if they made PD0 like PD64, it would've turned out to be a much better game.
Having the game become more simple does not mean the game is better. Just because you're not sure what the Terran sees completely, it doesn't mean that you need exact intel at what the scan sees. That's like saying the minimap should show you if there's an observer in your vision even if you don't have the detection because you don't know what he sees exactly. It's just part of the game and you need to deal with it.
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At least with an observer though you can't see it and need detectors, which you should generally have anyway, right?
If they're gunna bother to show you're being scanned, they should make it accurate as to how much is being seen...
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On September 24 2010 15:02 CatfooD wrote:
I think they should remove the visual indicator that the Terran even scanned anywhere at all. Why should an enemy be able to know that I just spent my energy on a scan instead of a mule when I can't tell if they are double chrono'ing Void Rays or Probes in my base.
Especially when the enemy gets to know exactly what I saw in their base to then make tactical decisions about. I scan a Zerg and see a Spire building. Zerg cancels Spire and puts down a Hydra den. 5 minutes later I lose Hydra/Ling > Thor/Marine combo or whatever because Zerg had the advantage of seeing my scan.
Same when a Terran scans the edge of your base midgame. Expect Dropships down the side of your base 10 seconds later. Protoss saw my scan and moves army in the way, so 10 Stalkers > 4 Dropships and I lose because they saw my scan.
Why should a Terran be at a disadvantage for needing to show their tactical decisions to the enemy when Protoss and Zerg don't have to. If people think the scan radius needs to be smaller, or the cost raised to 75 energy or something, that's just a different discussion in my opinion.
Should cloaked units act as though they did in WC3? (completely invisible to the enemy), or still shimmer on the terrain to them? If stay the same, then people that have to use low/medium graphics settings are fucked. How about people that simply didn't see the scan go down in their base because they were pre-occupied, or a low level player and didn't see? These are all important issues.
Ok, this other end of the extreme is also going a bit overboard. I think Terran also has the most useful "scout" ability, now if you give the opponent no chance to tell if they have been scanned? That's just even worse. A player must be given some sort of indication that the enemy knows what he is doing, so he has a chance to counter act that, or just continue on through with his original strategy. This is in no way a "disadvantage". You know how happy zergs would be if they could scan?
Scanning for the most part is seeing what your opponent is currently doing. Most of the time, you're gonna scan them when they already have a committed army. You at least have the option of scanning. Zerg and protoss have to poke around with overlords and observers and risk losing them while scouting nothing. And whose to say that Terran can't just as easily switch their tech if they get scouted? I mean, it's not like it's hard since Terran have the tech lab to build everything ever.
And just because you scanned somewhere for a drop and see that it's safe, it doesn't mean that you SHOULD be granted all immunity and the drop should work. How fair is that? A free "this drop will be safe no matter what now"? While voidrays, phoenixes, mutas, all have to poke in and risk taking a lot of hits without any intel? Come on now. If the opponent is fast enough to react to a scan and drop, then they deserve to lessen the blow of the drop. And if it's really true that everyone at your level is good enough to react to a drop, maybe try a little mind game and scan somewhere that you're not dropping and drop elsewhere. You don't have to be overly predictable with your strats.
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I think it's fine the way it is (I play toss). Part of the fun is the whole "did he see it or not? Should I keep going with this or switch to something else?" feeling you get when the scan goes down. Just like when a turret kills an obs, the terran has to think "damn, what did he see before I found that? Which direction did it come from?". I dunno, i find that a fun dynamic actually.
I wouldn't be too opposed to making it bigger though, or maybe a dotted line radius like for tanks and turrets and stuff. I agree, it is a bit counter-intuitive for new players. A minor, yet valid complaint.
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I would say just get used to how big it actually is in relation to the animation.
SC BW did fine with the little tiny blue swirl after all
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
Ummm he never made a point about imba, all he said was that the scan animation should be up to size with the area it actually reveals. you're getting a bit too defensive.
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Some people here referred to the scan in BW but they forgot to mention that the terran player in Brood War also couldn't see the area he wanted to scan, correct me if i'm wrong. So maybe it would be fair not to make scan animation larger, but to make that huge red pointer smaller?
As protos player, i don't have much trouble with the scan, every time i see he is scanning me i just try to keep in mind that the actual scan area is bigger then the animation and so i can figure what he is able to see.
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No I think that the scanning in SC2 is much more obvious than the BW scan. the scanning image stays up for the whole time the scan is happening so you have alot of time to spot it.
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i believe the scan animation is even smaller for BW
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On September 24 2010 11:43 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Stop citing BW, people. We don't care how tough it was for you guys to see scans. It's irrelevant here. The game is new, it shouldn't be like BW. It should be better.
I understand why people will want to cite situations from Brood War. Things you were always used to in BW will basically always affect something you would get used to in SC2. But with that said, I return with the fact that not everyone has experience in SC2 and/or BW (I, myself, didn't play much ladder in BW and I've been able to hold up my rank though) and it would help both the players who aren't used to it, and the players who haven't played it.
On September 24 2010 15:02 CatfooD wrote:
I think they should remove the visual indicator that the Terran even scanned anywhere at all. Why should an enemy be able to know that I just spent my energy on a scan instead of a mule when I can't tell if they are double chrono'ing Void Rays or Probes in my base.
Especially when the enemy gets to know exactly what I saw in their base to then make tactical decisions about. I scan a Zerg and see a Spire building. Zerg cancels Spire and puts down a Hydra den. 5 minutes later I lose Hydra/Ling > Thor/Marine combo or whatever because Zerg had the advantage of seeing my scan.
Same when a Terran scans the edge of your base midgame. Expect Dropships down the side of your base 10 seconds later. Protoss saw my scan and moves army in the way, so 10 Stalkers > 4 Dropships and I lose because they saw my scan.
Why should a Terran be at a disadvantage for needing to show their tactical decisions to the enemy when Protoss and Zerg don't have to. If people think the scan radius needs to be smaller, or the cost raised to 75 energy or something, that's just a different discussion in my opinion.
Should cloaked units act as though they did in WC3? (completely invisible to the enemy), or still shimmer on the terrain to them? If stay the same, then people that have to use low/medium graphics settings are fucked. How about people that simply didn't see the scan go down in their base because they were pre-occupied, or a low level player and didn't see? These are all important issues.
Removing the texture of the scan is simply stupid. That's like saying you should be able to walk into my base with an SCV without me knowing you were even there. This would completely remove the need for Terran to scout with SCVs early game/mid game.
The whole reason why I suggested the change in the texture was because we should be able to know what you saw. The whole point in that is so that I know if I need to change tech. The same already applies to normal scouting anyways, if I used a sacrificial overlord to scout your base in the middle of a game, and saw you building Thors against my Mutas, how do I know I'm not going to end up losing to MM with Tanks because I changed to Hydra with Lings? For what reason should Terran have the advantage to avoid that situation?
Protoss and Zerg players DO need to make our own tactical decisions, you talk as though we never have a situation in which Terran players seem to "suffer" from even though we also have it all the time.
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I knew it was larger than the scan animation but I didn't realize it was that much larger. That said, I sorta like the notion of "did he see me or not?". I felt the same with in BW with the little bubbles. It's the same feeling I get when I finally notice the observer flying around and kill it ("what exactly did he see?").
It adds some mind games to the game and makes it more interesting. The best thing about the OP is just showing how big the scan area really is for those that didn't know. But I don't think it should be changed.
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make this game more easy please i want to be able to easily win yes please this game is too hard
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Would be more fair if the graphic was more exact. It's too large a glob to to be realistically judged by the human eye, especially with the 3D effect being what it is.
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Just do few dry runs and memorize how large the scan is... or more precicely how much larger it is than the actual scan texture.
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I absolutely agree with the Op. Scans should reflect the radius of what is revealed and not a bit less like is the case now. This is pretty important in knowing if he saw your hidden tech and if you should cancel to fake him out.
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It should have the ring around it like Siege tank range does
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
Keitzer: what im saying is... post a full screenshot.. not half an image ... it's misleading (now looking at it... it kinda looks like terran's vision)
I'm going to risk my first warning/ban to tell you that you are a complete idiot.
He didn't post a false image, and he didn't call it imba.
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Erm, just because the scan sees more then the graphic doesnt mean that you should be able to see the whole graphic.
If that is the case then I want to be able to see the detection range of your overseers, the range of photon cannons and the range of turrets and ravens on my screen as a big circle too.
Imagine the graphic as a huge ass unit, the range outside of the graphic is the same distance from the edge of a unit to how far it can see. that is why the terran can see the spire.
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let's not make it so that the scanner animation = visible area. Eventually the better players will be able to gauge the visible area, while the shitty players wont. how bout we stop suggesting to spoon-feed the casual player, and let the gap between the dedicated and casuals grow?
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I think the main problem is that the scan animation gives the impression that it gives the area of the scan. As bad as the "water bubbles" of bw looked, they at least made it clear that the scanned area was larger than the animation. I'm not suggesting we spoon-feed the casual... however, you may never learn to guess what the terran saw until you eventually realize the animation is misleading.
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the animation would take up way way too much space if it covered the entire scanned area
imagine having your entire base covered in that yellow circling thingy, would be annoying as hell
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I agree with OP, people who are arguing an overlord/observer/or any unit scouting doesnt have a radius which they have vision of. But you forget that that can be stopped, by a turret, by units... EVEN by just looking at the mini map, you can see when/where they are scouting..
The minimap doesn't show you where they are scanning at all, Scan is an unstoppable reveal of an area, no matter how many turrets you have you cant stop a scan (unlike an observer).
He is just asking for a visual that represents what they saw. What is wrong with that? Tanks/spine crawlers/cannons/SENSOR TOWERS have a radius of what they can see, seems fair scan should be represented the same way.
in no way is he asking for a nerf of any kind.
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i agree with op .. animation should cover the whole area, it may be annoying but at least you know what they can see and what they cant see
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With such a no risk scouting ability and guaranteed vision over an area I think the player being scanned should at least know how far he can see, it should not be a guessing game when the terran is guaranteed vision for no real risk at all.
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it's funny how this was never brought up in BW
the BW scan had a very tiny radius and did not remain on the screen for the duration of the scan
i think people will be able to live if the radius isn't extended in SC2
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i always like to play like my opponent has map hacks and just always know what i tech to so i don't try to anything cheesy or that would only work if it goes unscouted therefore i do a lot more standard stuff and work on my fundamentals more so it's not a big deal to me infact i kinda like the old scan more just because i can sometimes find the new scan very very slightly distracting at times even less as time passes but yea i really liked the old scan
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is it just me or did the red scan icon (before the fog is revealed ) become enlarged in the last patch?
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If the scan visual were larger, it would look uglier. As it is, it has just about half the radius of the vision they get. It's not hard to estimate how much they can see from it. This is like asking for them to show the sight range of every one of your opponents units that you see, so that you can know what they can see. There is no reason to clutter the screen for something you can so easily estimate.
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I honestly think that scan should reveal only fog and does not detect cloaked units. It limits options of other races too much.
Detectors by far:
Terran - Raven, Turrets, EMP, Scan.
Zerg - Overseer, Spore, FG.
Protoss - Observer, Cannon, Storm.
Not fair. Protoss and Zerg always forced to tech because of banshees (which are easiest to get and most deadly amongst cloaked units). Whilst terran is always safe to some degree from insta dying to cloaked units.
Removing uncloak ability from scan would've opened so much variety and give options to zerg and protoss vs terran. Right now terrans are invincible against burrowed roach or DTs. It also would be fun to watch imho.
Edit: Just imagine zerg rushing for burrowed roaches ( like a terran for banshees). And sending them right into mineral line and micro burrow/unburrow. It would be so fun and not imbalanced. Terran can easily get Raven or turret either way.
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When they made the graphic, maybe they forgot that terran gets a racial bonus of +5 range to all abilities. =P
Seriously though, I had no idea it was so huge. That really explains a bunch of those "how did he know I was going X" moments.
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I know, I know I'm Terran and I know this isn't BW but in BW the scan was miniscule as in the size of about a hatchery(the graphic) but the reveal was still quite large. But imo its fine. If you really wanted to do a sneaky techswitch which you probably I won't be doing before Lair and with lair you can poop creep in some random corner waaay out of scan and build the tech there.
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Scan is a big area, but it also has a cost this game as opposed to SC1 where it was just free energy.
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Added a second example of the scan catching a tech RIGHT at the edge, even more than my first example. I tried judging myself and I pretty much thought he didn't see it. I'm sure you can agree with me when you see how close it is to the edge.
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On September 25 2010 08:29 bokeevboke wrote:
I honestly think that scan should reveal only fog and does not detect cloaked units. It limits options of other races too much.
Detectors by far:
Terran - Raven, Turrets, EMP, Scan.
Zerg - Overseer, Spore, FG.
Protoss - Observer, Cannon, Storm.
Not fair. Protoss and Zerg always forced to tech because of banshees (which are easiest to get and most deadly amongst cloaked units). Whilst terran is always safe to some degree from insta dying to cloaked units.
Removing uncloak ability from scan would've opened so much variety and give options to zerg and protoss vs terran. Right now terrans are invincible against burrowed roach or DTs. It also would be fun to watch imho.
Edit: Just imagine zerg rushing for burrowed roaches ( like a terran for banshees). And sending them right into mineral line and micro burrow/unburrow. It would be so fun and not imbalanced. Terran can easily get Raven or turret either way.
No offense but people need to stop comparing races like apples to apples. There completely different and each race has it's ups and downs. So Terran has one more way to detect cloaked units, big deal it's really not game breaking.
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Scan's radius is way too huge considering it requires no tech, and the only cost is potential MULE mining (which is free money). I think the scanned area should be the same size as the visual indicator.
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I always knew it was this huge, but I never noticed that the animation is not centered on the revealed area.
And THIS is retarded.
It is shown a little to the left and a lot to the top, thus if you are not aware of it, you can easily misjudge the scanned area.
To summarize : keep the animation size, because that tool needs opponent to judge the area, but please center it.
If anyone could add that to the bnet topic, would be great.
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[B]On September 25 2010 09:24 ckw wrote:
No offense but people need to stop comparing races like apples to apples. There completely different and each race has it's ups and downs. So Terran has one more way to detect cloaked units, big deal it's really not game breaking.[/QUOTE]
actually it is
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The scan area is too big (or it lasts too long) in my opinion, it's very hard to run away with a dark templar and nukes against a T are too easy to defend because the ghost dies even if the scan is seemingly way off. If a T has 2-3 or more orbital commands no Raven is ever needed for detection.
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
It's the Terran's viewpoint.
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It's not that hard. From it's centerpoint the scan reveals appx. 1 screen height of area. If your screen is centered on the scan assume he can see everything you are looking at now.
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On September 24 2010 10:13 Sylvr wrote:
I wouldn't have a problem with a more accurate scan animation, and I doubt many Terrans would, but at the same time, how hard is it to start up a custom game as Terran and just get a feel for it yourself? That's what I do for other races mechanics that I'm unsure of.
On September 26 2010 01:19 STS17 wrote:
It's not that hard. From it's centerpoint the scan reveals appx. 1 screen height of area. If your screen is centered on the scan assume he can see everything you are looking at now.
This thread has just educated us all about just how much more of your base a scan truly reveals to the terran. You could also go check out and add the cream of this thread to Liquipedia. We don't need to whine and ask for "changes" to every slight inconsistency.
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On September 25 2010 09:24 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 08:29 bokeevboke wrote:
I honestly think that scan should reveal only fog and does not detect cloaked units. It limits options of other races too much.
Detectors by far:
Terran - Raven, Turrets, EMP, Scan.
Zerg - Overseer, Spore, FG.
Protoss - Observer, Cannon, Storm.
Not fair. Protoss and Zerg always forced to tech because of banshees (which are easiest to get and most deadly amongst cloaked units). Whilst terran is always safe to some degree from insta dying to cloaked units.
Removing uncloak ability from scan would've opened so much variety and give options to zerg and protoss vs terran. Right now terrans are invincible against burrowed roach or DTs. It also would be fun to watch imho.
Edit: Just imagine zerg rushing for burrowed roaches ( like a terran for banshees). And sending them right into mineral line and micro burrow/unburrow. It would be so fun and not imbalanced. Terran can easily get Raven or turret either way. No offense but people need to stop comparing races like apples to apples. There completely different and each race has it's ups and downs. So Terran has one more way to detect cloaked units, big deal it's really not game breaking.
I didn't say its game breaking. As for balance its ok. But scan limits fun strategies for other races. As a spectator I would like to see more ninja play. And if uncloak ability is removed I think it won't hurt balance much.
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As a Terran player who has switched to Zerg, I already know the vision sight so I know what to hide from. Althougth from a new players perspective it might be thought that the animation would be all that you would see when idealy it's really about 40% circumference more.
Edit: To comment on bokeevboke misunderstanding of why Terrans have an extra dectection ability, If you notice Terran's arsenal of cloaked units are Ghost/Banshee's. These units can not permanently cloak like DTs, burrowed units, observers, and units within a motherships aura.
Like the poster quoting you, this game isn't apples to apples, Z/P can permanently cloak their units, while Terran can not, so theoretically the energy is a dynamic in it's self for Z/P.
So my point being despite your limited numbers in detection our harrassment can not be as constant as Z or P. You need to think about how much those scans have costed a terrans high mineral army in the long run.
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Why would anyone want it to cover the actual size? When I go back to my base I don't want my whole fucking screen covered in a scan. And really, it isn't hard to hide tech. Just make an Overlord poop somewhere else in your base, don't try to hide stuff on the hatchery creep.
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I agree that the borders of the scan should somehow be visible. It can be extremely hard to tell if the terran has seen or not seen your tech in some borderline circumstances, and it's pretty frustrating ://
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Updated original post to correct any misunderstanding with my argument... Many people are thinking my argument has something to do with hiding tech. Wrong. It's simply the best way to explain the situation.
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On September 24 2010 10:04 Keitzer wrote:bro wtf kinda screenshot is that you're viewing all the vision...not just terran... come back wit a better screenshot sorry about the bm... but when you're trying to prove a point, dont post a false image and call it imba
LOL best quote. Yep thats how big the scan is. It looks like "all player vision."
Look at the minimap more carefully before u go BM.
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Well is it really difficult to think:
"Oh, he scanned this area; he can see basically everything on my screen right now."
This issue doesn't increase the learning curve of this game, it reduces screen clutter.
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On September 24 2010 10:29 JinDesu wrote:There, you guys happy now? Full screenshot? Note the diff from the terran scanner icon to what the other player will see? Note the sheer size difference? Click the picture, then do "view image" for maximum size.
I'm probably blind, but then i look at it, it seems almost identical size, look at mineral line and gas..... its same radius there ..
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The texture that the Protoss player sees (The animation with the swirling radar). Not the red casting circle that the Terran player sees.
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On a serious note, threads like these seem be all over TL and really serve no purpose than a giant circle jerk of complaining and flaming. It would be different if it was a problem that, well mattered and could have a solution given by TL members. As you can see it's honestly a learn from it and go on rather than a "I hope a blizzard employee sees this and alerts the devs"
Yes, the animation deceives us a tiny bit you now know that, but other than acknowledging that and moving on people for some reason turn this into a discussion with no other purpose than getting angry.
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as you can see from the pic the radius that the terran player sees is about 4 units longer than the radius of the scan that the protoss player sees. that is, about 1.5 gateway lengths. therefore you can estimate, using the powers of your mind, how much the terran player can actually see, based on the little graphic.
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On September 26 2010 02:29 kYem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:29 JinDesu wrote:There, you guys happy now? Full screenshot? Note the diff from the terran scanner icon to what the other player will see? Note the sheer size difference? Click the picture, then do "view image" for maximum size. I'm probably blind, but then i look at it, it seems almost identical size, look at mineral line and gas..... its same radius there ..
he's not talking about the size of the original icon to what the terran will see, he's talking about how tiny the little yellow thing is compared to what the terran is really seeing
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On September 26 2010 02:29 kYem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:29 JinDesu wrote:There, you guys happy now? Full screenshot? Note the diff from the terran scanner icon to what the other player will see? Note the sheer size difference? Click the picture, then do "view image" for maximum size. I'm probably blind, but then i look at it, it seems almost identical size, look at mineral line and gas..... its same radius there ..
he also moved the view down in the lower screenshot, just look at the distance from the gas to the interface, everyhting is put back making it look smaller
or the upper screen is zoomed in
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On September 26 2010 01:38 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 09:24 ckw wrote:On September 25 2010 08:29 bokeevboke wrote:
I honestly think that scan should reveal only fog and does not detect cloaked units. It limits options of other races too much.
Detectors by far:
Terran - Raven, Turrets, EMP, Scan.
Zerg - Overseer, Spore, FG.
Protoss - Observer, Cannon, Storm.
Not fair. Protoss and Zerg always forced to tech because of banshees (which are easiest to get and most deadly amongst cloaked units). Whilst terran is always safe to some degree from insta dying to cloaked units.
Removing uncloak ability from scan would've opened so much variety and give options to zerg and protoss vs terran. Right now terrans are invincible against burrowed roach or DTs. It also would be fun to watch imho.
Edit: Just imagine zerg rushing for burrowed roaches ( like a terran for banshees). And sending them right into mineral line and micro burrow/unburrow. It would be so fun and not imbalanced. Terran can easily get Raven or turret either way. No offense but people need to stop comparing races like apples to apples. There completely different and each race has it's ups and downs. So Terran has one more way to detect cloaked units, big deal it's really not game breaking. I didn't say its game breaking. As for balance its ok. But scan limits fun strategies for other races. As a spectator I would like to see more ninja play. And if uncloak ability is removed I think it won't hurt balance much.
Well actually, when comparing the moving detector units, a raven is much harder to get than an overseer or an observer is. Takes longer to build, arguably requires more tech, is more expensive and quite easy to kill.
Scan is there to balance this fact. It was the same in SC1, just replace ravens with science vessels.
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Thats really annoying, when you think your building is hidden but it isnt :C
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yeah they should consider fixing this, but i guess as time goes on you'll get used to how big the actual scan is
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They can keep the current graphic, all they would have to do is add a thin line or border where the fog of war ends ends for the Terran player. Or even make revealed units and structures get a greenish "tint" (think of hallucinations blue tint) when they are revealed by a scan, I don't think that would clutter the screen. Not sure why it remains so vague.
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It's fine the way it is. It just adds more skill in that you have to have experience and try to guage how far the scan can see.
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This is really interesting
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The last comment from Orb really shows how different we think about it now. But SCAN looks different now, it's upsetting that you can lose DTs walking to high ground, because from low ground you cannot see the SCAN sprite, but they might've fixed it in one of the many bug fixes.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2683550/terranscan.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2683550/terranscan2.jpg)
