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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:00 Oddysay wrote: you need to place overlord all over the map for know where and when he drop . everyone good in sc1 know that and use them , why not in sc2 ? You rly think no1 does that in SC2? Problem is: Where you needed 2 scourges to stop the drop, you now need 10 mutas. | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
No, you said it so you defend it. I haven't read all of Jinro's posts in this thread but I highly doubt he said that Zerg is stronger than Terran. To say that Zerg>Terran even before the patch is just insane. You'd think the fact that every single top Zerg says the race is horribly weak would have some effect on people here. But no, they don't care. Apparently their views of Zerg are superior to those of Check, Cool, Zenio, IdrA and Dimaga. | ||
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universalwill
United States654 Posts
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:21 rackdude wrote: Maybe it meant "even" if I maintain my muta number. I think he means that even if he maintains his mutalisk count, which is already pretty hard to do, he still loses. Every Zerg right now is getting overly frustrated regardless of their skill level. Let's hope SC2 is balanced enough very soon or all the top Zergs will switch. Remember they have to make an income out of this and it's too difficult to do that with the weak race. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Yeah, I agree that its not an unbeatable strat, but it is seriously under-used --- The people who use infestors usually do it with some kind of weird 1 base stuff :S I have actually played a zerg or two who did a more normal infestor build, and it was tough, especially as it comes as a total surprise when you expect mutas (or roaches) from like everyone. Oh yeah totally! I love the strat personally. I do think people really underestimate the ability to go 2 base infestor play. The awesome thing about infestors right out of lair is it really minimizes the stuff you worry about (other than that vulnerable window before you have infestors with 75 energy) because infestors work reasonably well vs a bunch of different stuff. Also going infestors does mean you aren't going mutas which I think people misunderstand. Delaying your mutas is still a viable thing to do. Going infestors to hold the mid-game push into strong force of mutas can really catch Terran players off guard. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:00 Oddysay wrote: you need to place overlord all over the map for know where and when he drop . everyone good in sc1 know that and use them , why not in sc2 ? because in sc1, you can throw a pair of scourges at dropships without having to move your army out of position | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:03 Decessus wrote: Last time I went infestors as a big commitment in my game strat, he scanned them and quickly reacted by getting EMP. Sadface. Maybe I got unlucky. I think infestors beat ghosts sort of - steal one, EMP the others  Or fungal. Zerg with good creep and ol spread will have a really good idea of where the ghosts are. You should probably still make the ghosts against mass infestors tho, but I dont think they are a hard counter - the situation is kinda like HT vs Ghost I guess. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:25 Odds wrote: I really don't understand Blizzard's intense fear of somehow making Zerg 'too strong'. Is it somehow worse than having either of the other races far too strong- as is currently the case with Terran? This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. | ||
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Perkins1752
Germany214 Posts
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
True. Blizzard aren't superheroes. Balancing needs time. If you make hasty drastic changes the balance gets screwed in long terms. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote: This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. Indeed, people need to realize how FUCKING HARD it is to balance a RTS. There's a reason only Blizzard has succeeded at delivering good RTS games. | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:06 Endorsed wrote: Indeed, people need to realize how FUCKING HARD it is to balance a RTS. There's a reason only Blizzard has succeeded at delivering good RTS games. In BW it was Luck and WC3 is neither balanced nor good..... | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think infestors beat ghosts sort of - steal one, EMP the others Or fungal. Zerg with good creep and ol spread will have a really good idea of where the ghosts are. You should probably still make the ghosts against mass infestors tho, but I dont think they are a hard counter - the situation is kinda like HT vs Ghost I guess. On what planet would this actually happen in a real high end game. Its more likely the infestors would be sniped in a sec, or ghost would have cloak then actually see a infestor NP a ghost to emp the other ghost LOL. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think infestors beat ghosts sort of - steal one, EMP the others Or fungal. Zerg with good creep and ol spread will have a really good idea of where the ghosts are. You should probably still make the ghosts against mass infestors tho, but I dont think they are a hard counter - the situation is kinda like HT vs Ghost I guess. Does that work? NP has a cast time and the same range, won't the EMP hit before NP? Still if your opponent is going mass ghost you've uh already done a lot with your infestors. You've weakened his ground army in exchange for having to micro your infestors (FG is range 9 and instant so with micro you should still get at least some FGs off). As for cloak... uh if you know he has ghosts have an overseer. It's basic detection. Besides you can leave your infestors burrowed as well. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
8 rax bunker rush the way Boxer did it was a pretty new concept back then and there was a huge discussion over how Zerg could possibly stop this. Yellow himself posted (in his fancafé I think) about how it was so hard for Zerg to beat Terran because Zerg couldn't win unless he went hatch first, but if he went hatch first, he'd die to a bunker rush. We had tens of pages of discussion and flames on this on TL. Several pretty good Zergs came in and agreed with Yellow. T>Z was a pretty widespread opinion until Savior came along and taught everyone better. Of course we need a balance patch, imbalance or no. The current state of Zerg is ruining tournaments and the game itself. Just don't be surprised if it turns out later that Zerg was never even underpowered in the first place. | ||
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote: This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. Can we please copy this post and paste it everywhere on Teamliquid? | ||
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Exclamator
Korea (North)27 Posts
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gozima
Canada602 Posts
They nerfed the shit out of the Zerg during beta, and I guess they figured people would just be able to adapt. Guess what Blizz, after getting constantly beat with the nerf stick, adapting isn't something that's so easy to do. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
I can imagine him hoping desperately for some changes to come before his game against the extremely deadly oGsTOP... then we get patch1.1 Now he's thinking he's going into a game where even if he plays the most amazing series of his life he'll probably STILL lose. Must be so frustrating. | ||
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