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On September 24 2010 03:48 Voyager I wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:36 Pekkz wrote:On September 24 2010 03:06 The Touch wrote: But dealing specifically with the complaints, I don't understand the problem with drops. All races have the capability of dropping, and zerg actually have the easiest drops (one simple research and then they can use all their overlords for drops). Also if drops really are a problem and zerg in particular are having a hard time defending them, it strikes me as a problem with the maps (naturals too far from the main) or possibly even the creep mechanic (no creep = too difficult to defend in time), rather than with terran units. Are you insane, or bronze league? http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/1458390/PekkzYell louder please.
My name is actually sour on europe ladder, so jokes on you retard. Im 1100 with 68-48 zerg.
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time to buff zerg a wee bit more :-)
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Can't wait for the mirror matches for the rest of GSL. There goes that entertainment value.
I'd like to send a warm "thank you" to all the douchebags from other races that keep insisting that the game is balanced just because they want to keep their income / league position.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:47 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 24 2010 03:32 Koukalaka wrote:On September 24 2010 03:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 24 2010 03:24 Koukalaka wrote:On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically. You're not seriously suggesting that Cool, IdrA and Checkprime (arguably the three best Zergs there are) are all playing Zerg, a supposedly reactive rather than active race, incorrectly when they play reactively? I really hope you didn't just say the best three Zerg players in the world are playing it wrong because TLO plays Zerg once a month. Not at all what I said -_- That's how it read. O.o Sorry if I misread it. I think that there are things TLO does that other zergs should do. This doesnt mean hes better than said players with Zerg... To me it seems like the biggest problems for Zerg is being incapable of fighting off-creep (hydras and ultras are just useless once they get off creep), and there not being sufficient space for proper flanking on a lot of maps (or, even if there is a flank, the paths are still so small that a few force fields will turn the flank into nothing). TLOs mass infestor play is about the best way of stopping drops there is, and fungal allows ultras to actually fight off-creep. Keep in mind Im talking ZvT here, ZvP I dunno shit about except that it seems pretty annoying to play if you are Zerg. Burrowed infestors are also quite good at erasing SCV lines. Oh and there are better zergs out there than TLO right now, but there is nobody in the world who uses infestors better than him. Nobody. NOTE: All this being said doesnt mean that Zerg doesnt need changes made to them... Cuz they probably do. There are some weaknesses with mass infestor play, especially the window between hitting lair and having an infestor with 75 energy. I try to do mass infestor play ZvT as I like it for the reasons you listed. I'm nowhere as good as TLO obviously, but it doesn't seem like an end-all solution. Still personally I think it's the better opening than mutas and does need to be explored more. The problem is with so few Zergs it doesn't seem likely that anyone will exploit them fully anytime soon. Fighting off creep is a big problem, specifically in ZvP where a Protoss player can have several windows of weakness but zerg is too slow off creep to exploit them. Personally I'd rather just see Nydus worms be more practical (less gas cost, more minerals please since zerg is already a gas monster) so you can use nyduses infront of an enemy base to pressure. Yeah, I agree that its not an unbeatable strat, but it is seriously under-used --- The people who use infestors usually do it with some kind of weird 1 base stuff, or as support (where they are good, of course) - very rarely as the center-piece.
I have actually played a zerg or two who did a more normal infestor build, and it was tough, especially as it comes as a total surprise when you expect mutas (or roaches) from like everyone.
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I think the solution to this problem here is a patch filled purely and only of buffs to Zerg. TvT, PvP, and TvP while not perfectly balanced in and of themselves, they might as well be the shining example of perfect balance when you look at any MU involving Z (except Z v Z which is pretty much fine, though a little boring). My point here is that while none of the matchups are pefect, its Z v P/T that is truly where the problems lie. As has been said before nerfs will only result in a boring game, where there is three weak races fighting each other and nothing exciting happens. StarCraft is built around power-house units, but also the idea that ANY unit can become a power-house unit in the right hands and in the right circumstances so obviously simply nerfing Terran and Protoss down to Zergs level will result in all three races feeling bland and boring. The real answer is buffs, buff the weak race, buff them to the point of being overpowered - and then tweak ALL RACES equally from that point. If people call Protoss and Terran OP, then Zerg should also be OP, this way even if there was 0 sense of balance at all, the OP could even itself out.
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I acknowledge that problems with Zerg exists but I'm extremely disappointed in the way Cool chooses to out this. It's one thing to say "yeah it's really difficult right now, etc" but swearing and cursing about it? Threatening race change. Bleh for shame.
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On September 24 2010 02:19 proxY_ wrote: We've seen Dimaga and idrA both vent like this before, until one of them actually switches it doesn't mean anything.
They have a monthly income to protect and they have invested their time in practicing for one alternative. It's not that easy.
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I watched a replay the other day, where marauder drops killed 4 zerg bases in under 1 minute. I'm not surprised that one of the best zerg players in the world is thinking about switching, but it is sad to see. Wonder what Check thinks about all this.
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On September 24 2010 03:53 Lefnui wrote:
And you came to that insane conclusion how?
I've been coming to a similar conclusion the more i play and think about the game, Theoretically, Zerg has a skill cap way higher than T. P's skill cap is pretty high as well but a bit less so than Z.
So theoretically Z's will be dominant over T's with players of infinite skill. now for practical situations T can stomp on Z pretty easily, but It definitely FEELS like Z in the better race if you get really far into it.
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On September 24 2010 03:48 Voyager I wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:36 Pekkz wrote:On September 24 2010 03:06 The Touch wrote: But dealing specifically with the complaints, I don't understand the problem with drops. All races have the capability of dropping, and zerg actually have the easiest drops (one simple research and then they can use all their overlords for drops). Also if drops really are a problem and zerg in particular are having a hard time defending them, it strikes me as a problem with the maps (naturals too far from the main) or possibly even the creep mechanic (no creep = too difficult to defend in time), rather than with terran units. Are you insane, or bronze league? http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/1458390/PekkzYell louder please. Haha. I love when this happens.
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On September 24 2010 03:53 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:47 Titan107 wrote:On September 24 2010 03:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote: To me it seems like the biggest problems for Zerg is being incapable of fighting off-creep (hydras and ultras are just useless once they get off creep), and there not being sufficient space for proper flanking on a lot of maps (or, even if there is a flank, the paths are still so small that a few force fields will turn the flank into nothing).
Although my beliefs are that Zerg > Terran Atm (even pre-patch with Solid mechanics/infestor play). And you came to that insane conclusion how?
Jinro is spot on. Read his posts.
Edit: Someone above posted about Z > T also. Read that. It is possible to scout terrans if you have mechanics, Counter them -> push late game -> 3rd ->4th -> T3 -> Win.
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you need to place overlord all over the map for know where and when he drop .
everyone good in sc1 know that and use them , why not in sc2 ?
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On September 24 2010 03:58 KissBlade wrote: I acknowledge that problems with Zerg exists but I'm extremely disappointed in the way Cool chooses to out this. It's one thing to say "yeah it's really difficult right now, etc" but swearing and cursing about it? Threatening race change. Bleh for shame. There's 85,000 USD on the line. I think he has a right to be pissed off.
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in a really competitive environment athletes just use the most effective tools, im glad that the top zergs stay zergs, it would be terrible to see everybody switching terran just because zerg cant keep up on the competitive level
i dont understand why they dont get some opinions from the top players and test around how zerg could become equal to the other races so that the individual playstyle and skill is in the focus once again and not the race you play
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On September 24 2010 03:43 iNty.sCream wrote: maybe some people ( hopefully ) including blizzard, that the race is just horribly designed. small time-fixes and number-changes will not adress this, its a design flaw.
oh well, just going to have to wait for the expansion!
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:59 Titan107 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:53 Lefnui wrote:On September 24 2010 03:47 Titan107 wrote:On September 24 2010 03:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote: To me it seems like the biggest problems for Zerg is being incapable of fighting off-creep (hydras and ultras are just useless once they get off creep), and there not being sufficient space for proper flanking on a lot of maps (or, even if there is a flank, the paths are still so small that a few force fields will turn the flank into nothing).
Although my beliefs are that Zerg > Terran Atm (even pre-patch with Solid mechanics/infestor play). And you came to that insane conclusion how? Jinro is spot on. Read his posts. Edit: Someone above posted about Z > T also. Read that. It is possible to scout terrans if you have mechanics, Counter them -> push late game -> 3rd ->4th -> T3 -> Win. Well I definitely dont think Z owns T 
On September 24 2010 04:00 Oddysay wrote: you need to place overlord all over the map for know where and when he drop .
everyone good in sc1 know that and use them , why not in sc2 ?
Well I can tell you Zenio does this (hes a really solid zerg usually), so that hes complaining does make me worried.
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On September 24 2010 03:51 Doko wrote:Show nested quote + I almost never go HT in PvT and I think the matchup is excellent at all stages of the game. There are a lot of different ways to play PvT and TvP and that's part of what makes it so great!
What exactly do you do in the mid game? just out of curiosity? haven't seen you play PvT recently except the 2nd game vs select on the tl open
TvP is the most balanced matchup right now. I might have to say a little bit P favored. Mid game usually consists of getting collosi to fend off all the different timing atacks terran can do. Or try to get HT's.
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I think a big problem here is medivacs.
Medivacs heal and can be used as a drop ship with no upgrade. If medivacs didn't heal then getting them just for drop ships would be more of a risk. They are too effective as both once they pop out of a reactor'd starport.
If medics were back, they would still get the same healing but no transport which would be a better balance strategy I think. It's too easy to just fly around the map and getting that heal for free.
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Last time I went infestors as a big commitment in my game strat, he scanned them and quickly reacted by getting EMP. Sadface. Maybe I got unlucky.
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On September 24 2010 03:59 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:48 Voyager I wrote:On September 24 2010 03:36 Pekkz wrote:On September 24 2010 03:06 The Touch wrote: But dealing specifically with the complaints, I don't understand the problem with drops. All races have the capability of dropping, and zerg actually have the easiest drops (one simple research and then they can use all their overlords for drops). Also if drops really are a problem and zerg in particular are having a hard time defending them, it strikes me as a problem with the maps (naturals too far from the main) or possibly even the creep mechanic (no creep = too difficult to defend in time), rather than with terran units. Are you insane, or bronze league? http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/1458390/PekkzYell louder please. Haha. I love when this happens.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/725377/Sour is my account.
Hah, I love when this happens=)
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