On September 24 2010 03:06 The Touch wrote: But dealing specifically with the complaints, I don't understand the problem with drops. All races have the capability of dropping, and zerg actually have the easiest drops (one simple research and then they can use all their overlords for drops). Also if drops really are a problem and zerg in particular are having a hard time defending them, it strikes me as a problem with the maps (naturals too far from the main) or possibly even the creep mechanic (no creep = too difficult to defend in time), rather than with terran units.
Ok , so you say zerg drops is the easiest drop? Are you insane, or bronze league? Zerg has no units that can snipe buildnings fast enough for it to be worthwhile. Also protoss and terran usually are very close to their main, and can just liftoff commandcenter or warp inn. while they run back.
Dropping as terran on the other hand, you have units that deal sick ammunt of damage to buildings, with a dropship that HEALS YOUR UNITS. A unit you would get anyways for their healing of stim etc, you get their capability of dropping for free...........
How can people not see this is overpowerd when you can queue drop without paying attention at 3 different locations, and stim and target. For zerg to stop it , they need to have units at all locations react super fast.
4 stimmed marauders use 10 sec on taking down a hatchery. 100 supply of zerg units wont take down a planetary fortress. The game is more imbalanced then people think. Have you ever considered that Zergs play ALLOOOOT more ZvP ZvT then the terrans and protoss play zergs, yet they still loose alot more. Have you thought about why players as dimaga idra cool check machine etcetc, allmost never wins any tournaments? Have you thought about why players like SjoW with 90 apm can win and get high in every tournament he plays?
Obviously there are imbalances and blizzard better step up and do somthing more then a fucking build time change on couple of units, while NERFING ultralisk.
On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically.
You're not seriously suggesting that Cool, IdrA and Checkprime (arguably the three best Zergs there are) are all playing Zerg, a supposedly reactive rather than active race, incorrectly when they play reactively?
I really hope you didn't just say the best three Zerg players in the world are playing it wrong because TLO plays Zerg once a month.
TLO is a player that just capitalizes on matchup unit advantages, while it definitely is intelligent play, he has a sub-optimal mirror game which will continue to hurt him until he can address his weaknesses.
Also @ Jinro regarding PvT balance remark, PvT is extremely balanced and quite fun to play once P is able to support HT, before that - not so much. Once the Marauder is nerfed slightly (it's going to happen, and there are 10+ different ways to do it), it will pan out better. Also on a side and obvious note, Medivacs are entirely too good in all matchups.
If scouting is the issue, why don't they simply move changeling to the overlord? Instead of (necessarily) saccing an overlord, let it spit a changeling to scout instead. Make it require the spawning pool or something.
On September 24 2010 02:14 travis wrote: who can blame him blizzard clearly is either bad at balancing the game or just doesn't care very much about making it good for top level competition
i guess they just don't mind taking 2 years to balance the game when people are trying to play it for a living
That's stupid. Nobody should be playing SC for a living, maybe as an experience or something, but those who try to make a living off it deserve to get screwd. It's just a game.
On September 24 2010 02:19 Lomak wrote: The problem is that blizzard moves slower than evolution so the significant changes that are needed wont come for a long time.
On September 24 2010 03:34 Khaymus wrote: Dark days for those of us with the swarm. Some might say we need a Savior to come and lead us to the light =D
I think he needs someone to lead him into the light first (after digging a hole, filing away some handcuffs, and bringing a change of clothes).
On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically.
You're not seriously suggesting that Cool, IdrA and Checkprime (arguably the three best Zergs there are) are all playing Zerg, a supposedly reactive rather than active race, incorrectly when they play reactively?
I really hope you didn't just say the best three Zerg players in the world are playing it wrong because TLO plays Zerg once a month.
Not at all what I said -_-
That's how it read. O.o
Sorry if I misread it.
I think that there are things TLO does that other zergs should do. This doesnt mean hes better than said players with Zerg...
To me it seems like the biggest problems for Zerg is being incapable of fighting off-creep (hydras and ultras are just useless once they get off creep), and there not being sufficient space for proper flanking on a lot of maps (or, even if there is a flank, the paths are still so small that a few force fields will turn the flank into nothing).
TLOs mass infestor play is about the best way of stopping drops there is, and fungal allows ultras to actually fight off-creep. Keep in mind Im talking ZvT here, ZvP I dunno shit about except that it seems pretty annoying to play if you are Zerg.
Burrowed infestors are also quite good at erasing SCV lines.
Oh and there are better zergs out there than TLO right now, but there is nobody in the world who uses infestors better than him. Nobody.
NOTE: All this being said doesnt mean that Zerg doesnt need changes made to them... Cuz they probably do.
On September 24 2010 03:06 The Touch wrote: FIrst, I think we should be patient and see how patch 1.1 affects things. The tank nerf in particular should really help zerg against turtling terrans, and the zealot nerf should reduce the effectiveness of early 2- and 4-gate rushes. I don't think they're panaceas, but I do think we owe it to ourselves to give them time to judge their impact.
The thing is that the units Terran drops (marauders) are so deadly and can snipe key buildings in seconds. Even if Zerg reaserches drops (which are very expensive and take long upgrade), the units he drops does not make such huge damage in low amount of time, unless you drop whole you army, which can mean base race, and you know what base race means vs. terran.
Also marauders sniping spire is much deadlier than my roaches killing your barraks. Terran does not have those single "Key" buildings which can change the game when killed, that's why it does not really worth dropping vs. Terran unless he is super turtling.
This is what happens when you remove scourge. Those little buggers were crucial in BW and blizz just goes "oh they're not useful we'll just make devourers lair tech."
Of course there's SO many more things wrong with zerg, but that's why drop play is so stupid strong.
I saw this one coming a mile away. Blizz just doesn't get it. All the noobs who think muta/ling/bling is the ultimate epic answer to T don't get it. People just don't seem to understand how ridiculously easy TvZ is for T and how there's basically nothing Z can do about it.
I do not have the capabilities to play at a pro-level.
However I watch others and learn - personal experience makes me feel that I need to do sooo much more and play a lot better to win vs someone who 1a their forces after queuing up a drop in my expo/main. I have to make sure i spread enough creep and protect my tumors, make sure I make enough drones and have decent map control, make sure I can set up ambushes and get a perfect surround, make sure I harass and can hold against harassment... etc etc...
On September 24 2010 03:36 Agh wrote: Also @ Jinro regarding PvT balance remark, PvT is extremely balanced and quite fun to play once P is able to support HT, before that - not so much. Once the Marauder is nerfed slightly (it's going to happen, and there are 10+ different ways to do it), it will pan out better. Also on a side and obvious note, Medivacs are entirely too good in all matchups.
I almost never go HT in PvT and I think the matchup is excellent at all stages of the game. There are a lot of different ways to play PvT and TvP and that's part of what makes it so great!
I just went to youtube and typed julyzerg to find his game (now I don't know who the fuck is commentating, probably some casters wannabe but w/e)
compared to
I didn't watched the game at all just skipped right to the end just to check out how he's fairing with creep spread and I see 1 creep tumor laid down. That might not prove if he's good or bad but to my eyes every good zerg should be super active with creep spread - It's a new mechanic for zerg that every great player should master. Once this guy practices enough to be pro at creep spreading i'll listen what he has to say about balance.
It's sad to see it come to this. There are real imbalance issues that need to be addressed before the expansion. I'm positive Blizzard is working on them but honestly, without high-level player input from a beta realm or something like that, I just don't think they will be able to do it as fast as they could if they employed a more open patch strategy.
I don't play Zerg, but I've already started playing less and less because I don't want to get to the point where I can't stand the game because all I ever get are two match-ups on ladder (almost true right now anyway though).
On September 24 2010 03:41 DarkspearTribe wrote: I just went to youtube and typed julyzerg to find his game (now I don't know who the fuck is commentating, probably some casters wannabe but w/e)
I didn't watched the game at all just skipped right to the end just to check out how he's fairing with creep spread and I see 1 creep tumor laid down. That might not prove if he's good or bad but to my eyes every good zerg should be super active with creep spread - It's a new mechanic for zerg that every great player should master. Once this guy practices enough to be pro at creep spreading i'll listen what he has to say about balance.
That's just my personal thoughts.
Yep, but I think hes actually improved creep spreading a lot lately.
maybe some people ( hopefully ) including blizzard, that the race is just horribly designed. small time-fixes and number-changes will not adress this, its a design flaw.
i hope that in the next big tournys only people play terran and toss, this is going to help to show that zerg is crap
On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically.
You're not seriously suggesting that Cool, IdrA and Checkprime (arguably the three best Zergs there are) are all playing Zerg, a supposedly reactive rather than active race, incorrectly when they play reactively?
I really hope you didn't just say the best three Zerg players in the world are playing it wrong because TLO plays Zerg once a month.
Not at all what I said -_- I do, however, think that there are things TLO does that other zergs should do. This doesnt mean hes better than said players with Zerg...
To me it seems like the biggest problems for Zerg is being incapable of fighting off-creep (hydras and ultras are just useless once they get off creep), and there not being sufficient space for proper flanking on a lot of maps (or, even if there is a flank, the paths are still so small that a few force fields will turn the flank into nothing).
The problem I see is that Zerg are just too fragile. Losing a Queen is far more dangerous than losing a Mule, or wasting a Chrono Boost. Missing an Inject Larva for 2-5 seconds is far more damaging to macro than missing a Mule or Chrono Boost because they can all be used together. You might think that "Injecting Larvae every 40 seconds requires 3 APM" - it does, but imagine if there was a 40 second cooldown on Mules and 20 second cooldown on Chrono Boost: do you think you could use every Mule, on every cooldown? It gets even worse with multiple Queens/Hatcheries.
In my view Zerg players have to play reactively, which is fine, but in order to play reactively they need to be able to have sufficient scouting, sufficient time to macro up (bigger distances from opponent to Zerg) but more importantly need a stronger set of defensive options.
I play Protoss at 1600 and Zerg at 1200. I'd give the entire tier 2 tech of P/Z for Marauders, Marines and Medivacs. The simple matter is that the Terran units, before upgrades, are too strong - and with them they're about 50%+ better. Do you think, arguably, that there is an upgrade in the game that increases the DPS and utility of a unit as much as the 100/100 Stimpack and 50/50 Concussive Shells do? Personally, 100/100 for Stimpack is a choke when you need to spend 200/200 for Charge and you can still be kited under the movement speed increase of Stimpack.
IdrA was saying that Zerg's early game was weak, which the reaper and zealot nerf should affect. This will have effects further into the mid and lategame so it's too early to say what effects exactly the patch has had. We should wait a while and see what happens.
With regards to progaming this is quite sad news. I don't want to watch T & P over and over again. If the patch schedule of approx 2 months is maintained this means that zergs will have 2 more seasons to change races before the next patch. I'm not sure what can be done to even fix the issue, balance changes are so fragile and take a long time to be understood.
And now for some moaning of my own...
On September 24 2010 03:20 dacthehork wrote: Allow Queen to be built from morphing hatches, low the build time on lair upgrade by 30%.
I like how this sounds.
The problem is that Zerg have the possibility to be incredibly good, yet require a massive APM hike to actually do it. This is why I Z, despite being absolutely terrible at this game :D
On September 24 2010 03:39 Floophead_III wrote: This is what happens when you remove scourge. Those little buggers were crucial in BW and blizz just goes "oh they're not useful we'll just make devourers lair tech."
I've seen a couple people mention scourge... They're in the campaign, so I assume you could add them in some custom maps and try it out? Any strong Zerg players want to experiment with that?
EPT
