|
On September 24 2010 04:06 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote:On September 24 2010 02:25 Odds wrote:
I really don't understand Blizzard's intense fear of somehow making Zerg 'too strong'. Is it somehow worse than having either of the other races far too strong- as is currently the case with Terran? This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. Indeed, people need to realize how FUCKING HARD it is to balance a RTS. There's a reason only Blizzard has succeeded at delivering good RTS games.
Where is this nonsense about Blizzard being good at balancing RTS coming from? All their games besides BroodWar are horribly imbalanced and BroodWar was sort of a one shot thing- they got lucky initially and didnt implement that much changes post release of teh expansion pack.
And speaking of BroodWar, some terran on the scene just cant seem to lose.
Who coulda guessed:D
|
On September 24 2010 04:09 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:06 Endorsed wrote:On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote:On September 24 2010 02:25 Odds wrote:
I really don't understand Blizzard's intense fear of somehow making Zerg 'too strong'. Is it somehow worse than having either of the other races far too strong- as is currently the case with Terran? This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. Indeed, people need to realize how FUCKING HARD it is to balance a RTS. There's a reason only Blizzard has succeeded at delivering good RTS games. In BW it was Luck and WC3 is neither balanced nor good.....
Clearly you know nothing about WC3.
|
On September 24 2010 03:56 Sanguinarius wrote:
Zerg needs some help. And terran needs a nerf to mauraders/dropships.
to be honest, i think it needs a complete revamp and not a little bit of help. remember the gameplay trailer of zerg? zerg should look like this.
Point 1 : Zerg isnt the Swarm anymore. The only spammable Unit is the Zergling, that is really weaker then in BroodWar, cause of clumping units and DPS nerf.
Point 2 : Dark Swarm was given to the Terrans, AKA PDD - what i really cant understand. Do you really need a semi-DS as Terran? Dont think so.
Point 3 : Due to Cliffjumping-Units, Zerg as a really hard time when it comes to expanding, or teching in the early / early-mid
Point 4 : Hydralisks are a waste of money except against Gateway Units pre-Storm
Point 5 : No T1.5 Anti-Air. Whats the point in making Hydralisks T2 ? Why dont swap Hydra with Roach, make Hydra 1 Supply and NERF them in terms of DMG-Output, but give them a friggin Speedupgrade
Point 6 : The Creep-mechanic. Like many other People, i think its more of a constriction than a bonus. Its really cool that your units are faster in the defense, but it dont makes shit in the offense.
I mean, its not that Zerg isnt abled to hold off attacks, but seriously i feel like zerg cant do any pressure in early / midgame withouth going mass Mutalisks or going Baneling all-in. Its not funny to see how 80% of pro-zergs have to cowering in their base and wait for the enemys push
maybe it sounds a bit whiny, but i dont give anything about. I would like to hear some not-biased People giving their opinion about this Points. Numbers always can be refined, design not.
greets
|
On September 24 2010 04:09 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:06 Endorsed wrote:On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote:On September 24 2010 02:25 Odds wrote:
I really don't understand Blizzard's intense fear of somehow making Zerg 'too strong'. Is it somehow worse than having either of the other races far too strong- as is currently the case with Terran? This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. Indeed, people need to realize how FUCKING HARD it is to balance a RTS. There's a reason only Blizzard has succeeded at delivering good RTS games. In BW it was Luck and WC3 is neither balanced nor good.....
Tell me better multiplayer RTS games than Blizzards?
|
Infestor play is completely useless and relies on the opponents mistakes. No infestor will get inside a Terran base unless the Terran makes mistakes and have fun with good fungal growth on Thors and Tanks. If the Zerg makes a lot of infestors, all the Terran has to do is a solid mech mix and it's gg, since they're insanely gas heavy, even more so if someone is stupid enough to research Neural Parasite.
Mass Infestor play is nothing but gimmicks. It only works if you catch your opponent completely off guard (just like Nydus and Roach Burrow plays etc.), which might happen now since nobody uses it, but once it becomes somewhat more common it will be another useless strat that lived a short live, just like sens 1 base muta etc.
And by the way, unless you park an infestor in every base you have and have perfect control over all of them once the Terran shift-drops in 3 bases they won't stop anything.
btw it's pretty ignorant to assume that all Zerg pro's out there ignore infestors and that TLO is somehow the only one who magically recognizes their godly usefulness. I'm rather sure quite the contrary is the case. Most of them probably played around a lot with the infestor and came to the same conclusion I posted here.
|
On September 24 2010 03:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:32 Koukalaka wrote:On September 24 2010 03:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 24 2010 03:24 Koukalaka wrote:On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically. You're not seriously suggesting that Cool, IdrA and Checkprime (arguably the three best Zergs there are) are all playing Zerg, a supposedly reactive rather than active race, incorrectly when they play reactively? I really hope you didn't just say the best three Zerg players in the world are playing it wrong because TLO plays Zerg once a month. Not at all what I said -_- That's how it read. O.o Sorry if I misread it. I think that there are things TLO does that other zergs should do. This doesnt mean hes better than said players with Zerg... To me it seems like the biggest problems for Zerg is being incapable of fighting off-creep (hydras and ultras are just useless once they get off creep), and there not being sufficient space for proper flanking on a lot of maps (or, even if there is a flank, the paths are still so small that a few force fields will turn the flank into nothing). TLOs mass infestor play is about the best way of stopping drops there is, and fungal allows ultras to actually fight off-creep. Keep in mind Im talking ZvT here, ZvP I dunno shit about except that it seems pretty annoying to play if you are Zerg. Burrowed infestors are also quite good at erasing SCV lines. Oh and there are better zergs out there than TLO right now, but there is nobody in the world who uses infestors better than him. Nobody. NOTE: All this being said doesnt mean that Zerg doesnt need changes made to them... Cuz they probably do.
Hi, Jinro.
Check out this replay, Cool playing infestors.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1400
Cool is also aware that this unit exists and does all stuff that TLO does.
But apparently its not viable in competitive level otherwise we would've seen it.
I understand you were impressed with TLO's play (as we all did). TLO is also good at using ghosts but it doesn't work as we already know. So please, don't say that some gimmick play would have helped Cool.
|
my hope are now gone , thx blizzard for fix reaper with the patch but reaper have become medivac .
im guessing blizzard will nerf them with time , after some time medivac will become marauder.
and this never end until the whole terran race got completly removed from the game .
|
On September 24 2010 04:10 Exclamator wrote:
If any of you guys were active in WoW, you would know Blizzard's track record for balancing games. For example, in WoW arena, a counter was found for RMP (A dominant and overpowered arena composition), but in the same week that counter for RMP got nerfed. They have no desire to balance a game.
Blizzard is the only company to make an unbreakably balanced asymmetrical competitive video game that's stood the test of time for over 10 years.
Or you know we could go with your selective example that has tons of other factors (like the need to balance for PvE).
|
On September 24 2010 04:08 dRaW wrote:
I am sorry for asking a dumb question, but do they switch the patch for the current GSL too or are they on a modded version which is pre patch? Because switching a patch/the game WHILE staying in the same tournament is quite BS, you get so far only to progress into what could be something very imbalance.
I believe the rule states that the game will be play with the latest patch. Therefore, Terran players have some homework to do now 
Regarding of balance, I also prefer the slow but sure approach to balancing out the game. Everything that is changed has effects on other things, so it's quite hard to really see the clear results until we have play enough games.
I kinda agree with IdrA that, at least the beginning of the game should be as balance as possible first because some of problems might be the effect of imbalances at the beginning of the game. When you fix that, then those problems might disappear. When we can analyze issues in the mid-game clearly then it would also be easier to balance it out too (which might happen sooner than we might expect).
|
On September 24 2010 04:11 heishe wrote:
Infestor play is completely useless and relies on the opponents mistakes. No infestor will get inside a Terran base unless the Terran makes mistakes and have fun with good fungal growth on Thors and Tanks. If the Zerg makes a lot of infestors, all the Terran has to do is a solid mech mix and it's gg, since they're insanely gas heavy, even more so if someone is stupid enough to research Neural Parasite.
Mass Infestor play is nothing but gimmicks. It only works if you catch your opponent completely off guard (just like Nydus and Roach Burrow plays etc.), which might happen now since nobody uses it, but once it becomes somewhat more common it will be another useless strat that lived a short live, just like sens 1 base muta etc.
And by the way, unless you park an infestor in every base you have and have perfect control over all of them once the Terran shift-drops in 3 bases they won't stop anything.
You don't need to be offensive for the infestors to work. Infestors with other units (they are casters after all) are a great way to secure a 3rd/deny an enemy 3rd and transition into late game.
|
On September 24 2010 04:10 Exclamator wrote:
If any of you guys were active in WoW, you would know Blizzard's track record for balancing games. For example, in WoW arena, a counter was found for RMP (A dominant and overpowered arena composition), but in the same week that counter for RMP got nerfed. They have no desire to balance a game.
WoW is a whole different story cause they need to respect PvE and shit. Like 5% of the playerbase plays Arena competitively.
Also in WoW they went way overboard with the changes. Pretty much every class or spec has been overpowered for some time after 5 years. This is clearly NOT what they want for Starcraft so they make careful changes.
|
On September 24 2010 02:54 SeaSmoke wrote:
Nooooooo fruitseller...! One of our finest generals...
I agree dropships are a pain in the ass to handle. But how would you fix that? Make them more expensive? Nerf healing? How about nerf capacity?
How about just giving Zerg easier and faster droplords in stead?
|
On September 24 2010 04:10 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:09 kickinhead wrote:On September 24 2010 04:06 Endorsed wrote:On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote:On September 24 2010 02:25 Odds wrote:
I really don't understand Blizzard's intense fear of somehow making Zerg 'too strong'. Is it somehow worse than having either of the other races far too strong- as is currently the case with Terran? This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. Indeed, people need to realize how FUCKING HARD it is to balance a RTS. There's a reason only Blizzard has succeeded at delivering good RTS games. In BW it was Luck and WC3 is neither balanced nor good..... Clearly you know nothing about WC3.
Played thousands of games but what do I know...
Played UD - why do I have such bad luck with races?
|
Try to increase larvae spawning time by 25%. Should help with the earlygame quite abit.
|
Maps are also a big problem. Some maps are very terran favoured and others are not symmetrical which means spawns affect small things which are crucial for pros. The only good map in the pool seems to be metalopolis. Xel naga caverns seems to be ok to some extent. Its hard for zerg to play when 2 out of 3 maps in a BO3 will be terran favored. Till the map issue is fixed noone will know the true balance situation.
People should start using custom maps for their weekly tourneys to make them more popular. Maybe they should start with iccup maps which are very good. But I guess no custom maps will become popular unless they are part of the ladder map pool.
So before any balance changes are done by blizzard, they must start working with the community in improving the ladder map pool with better community made maps. If they start this now hopefully by GSL3 there will be 3-4 maps in the pool which don't favor terrans so much.on.
|
On September 24 2010 04:14 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:11 heishe wrote:
Infestor play is completely useless and relies on the opponents mistakes. No infestor will get inside a Terran base unless the Terran makes mistakes and have fun with good fungal growth on Thors and Tanks. If the Zerg makes a lot of infestors, all the Terran has to do is a solid mech mix and it's gg, since they're insanely gas heavy, even more so if someone is stupid enough to research Neural Parasite.
Mass Infestor play is nothing but gimmicks. It only works if you catch your opponent completely off guard (just like Nydus and Roach Burrow plays etc.), which might happen now since nobody uses it, but once it becomes somewhat more common it will be another useless strat that lived a short live, just like sens 1 base muta etc.
And by the way, unless you park an infestor in every base you have and have perfect control over all of them once the Terran shift-drops in 3 bases they won't stop anything. You don't need to be offensive for the infestors to work. Infestors with other units (they are casters after all) are a great way to secure a 3rd/deny an enemy 3rd and transition into late game.
yes, have fun with that insane infestor/ling mix against a tank / hellion / thor push.
you might go infestor / roach but that's pretty much just as useless since you won't have gas to get enough roaches.
|
On September 24 2010 04:15 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:10 Lefnui wrote:On September 24 2010 04:09 kickinhead wrote:On September 24 2010 04:06 Endorsed wrote:On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote:On September 24 2010 02:25 Odds wrote:
I really don't understand Blizzard's intense fear of somehow making Zerg 'too strong'. Is it somehow worse than having either of the other races far too strong- as is currently the case with Terran? This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes. Indeed, people need to realize how FUCKING HARD it is to balance a RTS. There's a reason only Blizzard has succeeded at delivering good RTS games. In BW it was Luck and WC3 is neither balanced nor good..... Clearly you know nothing about WC3. Played thousands of games but what do I know... Played UD - why do I have such bad luck with races?
It is the creep i tell you...
|
On September 24 2010 04:11 heishe wrote:
Infestor play is completely useless and relies on the opponents mistakes. No infestor will get inside a Terran base unless the Terran makes mistakes and have fun with good fungal growth on Thors and Tanks. If the Zerg makes a lot of infestors, all the Terran has to do is a solid mech mix and it's gg, since they're insanely gas heavy, even more so if someone is stupid enough to research Neural Parasite.
Mass Infestor play is nothing but gimmicks. It only works if you catch your opponent completely off guard (just like Nydus and Roach Burrow plays etc.), which might happen now since nobody uses it, but once it becomes somewhat more common it will be another useless strat that lived a short live, just like sens 1 base muta etc.
And by the way, unless you park an infestor in every base you have and have perfect control over all of them once the Terran shift-drops in 3 bases they won't stop anything.
btw it's pretty ignorant to assume that all Zerg pro's out there ignore infestors and that TLO is somehow the only one who magically recognizes their godly usefulness. I'm rather sure quite the contrary is the case. Most of them probably played around a lot with the infestor and came to the same conclusion I posted here.
I completely and wholeheartily disagree. MASS infestor may suck yes. but infestors are as important as defilers were.
|
On September 24 2010 04:12 Oddysay wrote:
my hope are now gone , thx blizzard for fix reaper with the patch but reaper have become medivac .
im guessing blizzard will nerf them with time , after some time medivac will become marauder.
and this never end until the whole terran race got completly removed from the game .
How can a Terran come into this thread and be negative? =P
|
On September 24 2010 04:16 WickedBit wrote:
Maps are also a big problem. Some maps are very terran favoured and others are not symmetrical which means spawns affect small things which are crucial for pros. The only good map in the pool seems to be metalopolis. Xel naga caverns seems to be ok to some extent. Its hard for zerg to play when 2 out of 3 maps in a BO3 will be terran favored. Till the map issue is fixed noone will know the true balance situation.
People should start using custom maps for their weekly tourneys to make them more popular. Maybe they should start with iccup maps which are very good. But I guess no custom maps will become popular unless they are part of the ladder map pool.
So before any balance changes are done by blizzard, they must start working with the community in improving the ladder map pool with better community made maps. If they start this now hopefully by GSL3 there will be 3-4 maps in the pool which don't favor terrans so much.on.
It's way too early to make changes to the map pool. The current maps haven't been played enough to exactly know what needs to be improved.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
