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On September 21 2010 04:01 Mantikor wrote:Disclaimer; I'm moderate-low quality caliber of player. No way do I attempt to say I'm great at SC2. I'm high rank plat, my games are usually vs. 500pt Diamonds. so.... whats that C or lower in ICCUP? Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 04:05 vrok wrote:
1200 points? No way. At least over 9000.
Lol, this post is so retarded in so many ways but this takes the cake. C? Dude, you're probably D-/E. Diamond has nothing on C in iCCup.
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Well it definitely should not be based on points, for one because there will be seasons and points will be wiped clean, and second because 1200 may mean a lot less in a month or so. Like i said before, the TL staff should give certain users of their choice the privilege of posting.
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I just think it's hilarious that every post starts out with:
well, i'm levels and i'm 1200 diamond, so...
lol
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This should be obvious: Do you want good people to post in the strategy section?
I'm all for great ideas from smart people, but when smart people have good strategy, they will play well. And I don't want any of the crap where people say "OH LISTEN TO ME EVEN THO I DON'T PLAY GOOD, I ANALYZE GAMES WELL". Everybody thinks they are this way.
Sure, noobs can get good strategic ideas, especially at such an early stage of the game.
But right now the SC2 forums are unusable, and we can't just depend on self-judgment and honor anymore.
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No. TL already has enough of an elitist reputation as is, no need to make it worse with something inflammatory like this. Remember that 95% of the people who visit this site are not top diamond, they're normal people. So therefore, you're getting 95% of the site posting in the strat forum with really no clue about what they're posting, but that's just kind of the way life is.
Although, what WOULD be a cool idea is if TL started doing a biweekly/monthly/whatever newspost that was high-level players like HuK/TLO/IdrA/whoever talking about some really high-level strategies. That way, it would give them a way to educate us freely, without the problem of every other post being "LOL U SO BAD I MASS REAPERS AND WIN"
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If you want high level commentary that's what interviews are for.
Strong mechanical abilities can take you very far in SC, even if you don't really have a solid understanding of the game. The ability to replicate successful strategies/techniques from other games does not guarantee any understanding of the game, it just means they can do a lot at once and know how to copy. Limiting discussion to high level players doesn't necessarily mean that discussion will be of higher quality, its just a shift in perspective that reflects the experience of higher level players. But, that doesn't mean that what they say is always going to be correct.
Furthermore, what about racial bias? If lower players opinions aren't valid, then surely the only way to have a valid opinion would be to be a high level player that only plays random, because racial bias means that the opinions would always be tilted unless you are fair to all races.
That's why it's pointless to try and create some kind of elite area for people to discuss the game, even if they are high level players you still have to make a judgement call on their reputation and bias to decide whether what they are saying is valid. Which is the same as if anyone can post, you still have to make the decision on whether their opinion is reliable, regardless of them being high/low level.
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On September 21 2010 09:44 Gogleion wrote:
This should be obvious: Do you want good people to post in the strategy section?
I'm all for great ideas from smart people, but when smart people have good strategy, they will play well. And I don't want any of the crap where people say "OH LISTEN TO ME EVEN THO I DON'T PLAY GOOD, I ANALYZE GAMES WELL". Everybody thinks they are this way.
Sure, noobs can get good strategic ideas, especially at such an early stage of the game.
But right now the SC2 forums are unusable, and we can't just depend on self-judgment and honor anymore.
That's not entirely true. Raelcun, for example, has a deep understanding of the game, but doesn't play at a high level.
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I think this is a good idea. Balance talk here is pretty awful, not that there wont be awful posts in this new "private" forum, but it will go a long way in filtering out the noise.
But you do run the risk of segregating the community.
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There are plenty of people who know a lot that are not that good at the game.
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On September 21 2010 09:59 Trezeguet23 wrote:
There are plenty of people who know a lot that are not that good at the game.
i really disagree with this sentiment
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On September 21 2010 09:59 Dommk wrote:
I think this is a good idea. Balance talk here is pretty awful, not that there wont be awful posts in this new "private" forum, but it will go a long will in filtering out the noise. Because pro players NEVER talk about balance. *eyes roll to IdrA, who is sitting in a leather chair smoking a pipe, angrily petting a cat*
But you do run the risk of segregating the community.
It could be argued that you are practically guaranteeing it.
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On September 21 2010 10:00 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 09:59 Trezeguet23 wrote:
There are plenty of people who know a lot that are not that good at the game. i really disagree with this sentiment
Raelcun doesn't know the game? JoshSuth doesn't know the game? You can't make generalizations like that.
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I'm fine with a sub-forum where only certain players can write (not letting other players read it is stupid as hell and I can't even fathom how elitist you have to be to be one of the people who voted for that).
My question/issue with this is what the cut-off line would be?
1200 or so might be fine now but that will change as point inflation continues to increase. Who will decide what the cut-off should be? This is completely arbitrary and will likely spark plenty of controversy.
Sounds like a lot of work for the admins too. I wouldn't expect it to happen but would be happy if it did.
(Oh ya, there is also the fact that there are many 1200 players who don't know a damn thing about game balance/aren't good etc.)
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On September 21 2010 09:57 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 09:44 Gogleion wrote:
This should be obvious: Do you want good people to post in the strategy section?
I'm all for great ideas from smart people, but when smart people have good strategy, they will play well. And I don't want any of the crap where people say "OH LISTEN TO ME EVEN THO I DON'T PLAY GOOD, I ANALYZE GAMES WELL". Everybody thinks they are this way.
Sure, noobs can get good strategic ideas, especially at such an early stage of the game.
But right now the SC2 forums are unusable, and we can't just depend on self-judgment and honor anymore. That's not entirely true. Raelcun, for example, has a deep understanding of the game, but doesn't play at a high level.
And there are also people like Bill gates who drop out of college and end up Billionaires. I think the few people who aren't high ranked but have a deep understanding are few and far between. There really is no best way in handling the situation, you either keep the channel open letting in ALLOT of noise or you limit and run the risk of shutting out a few people who may have a great understanding but don't play exceptionally well but in the process shut out a significant amount of noise.
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Why promote even more blatant elitism on TL? Mods just need to crack down a little more. We don't need to make this crap worse.
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you wouldn't need a separate forum for 'elite' players if people weren't so dumb when discussing balance. however i am wary about having an exclusive forum because it rail-roads the discussion of balance, making the guys who play enough games to be 1200+ diamond 'right' and everyone else 'wrong'.
i am skeptical that having an exclusive forum will get rid of the problems anyway. i expect it'll full of nerds who will now have an inflated ego and bigger sense of entitlement to have their arguments gratified.
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On September 21 2010 09:57 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 09:44 Gogleion wrote:
This should be obvious: Do you want good people to post in the strategy section?
I'm all for great ideas from smart people, but when smart people have good strategy, they will play well. And I don't want any of the crap where people say "OH LISTEN TO ME EVEN THO I DON'T PLAY GOOD, I ANALYZE GAMES WELL". Everybody thinks they are this way.
Sure, noobs can get good strategic ideas, especially at such an early stage of the game.
But right now the SC2 forums are unusable, and we can't just depend on self-judgment and honor anymore. That's not entirely true. Raelcun, for example, has a deep understanding of the game, but doesn't play at a high level.
Please, let me direct you to this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137693
This is never going to happen. How in the world would tl verify that your account is 1200? Battle.net Teamliquidbook integration 2.0?
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On September 21 2010 08:23 DGMavn wrote:
Smashboards supported this feature for Super Smash Brothers Melee/Brawl.
The Back Room was used to cultivate discussion on many different topics about Melee, the most important being the tournament ruleset (no items, what are neutral stages, what stages are banned, etc) and advanced techniques (wavedashing, etc). As the game matured, the knowledge of the game spread out throughout the regular forum naturally so that solid strategic advice could be found throughout the forum.
When Brawl came out, however, Smashboards saw a spike in usage from people who had heard that it was the best Melee site but didn't know anything about how Smash worked. All of a sudden, the entire site sucked.
However, the Back Room was busy discussing all the characters, and began releasing threads with their impression of the metagame one at a time. All of a sudden, a tentative tier list was created and threads filled with strategic character-specific analysis were available for newbies to read and post about. It was a huge amount of good information that everyone had access to.
I think an application/invitation-only Back Room would be greatly beneficial to this site. At the end of the day, people are interested in cultivating the highest level of gameplay, and giving the pros a noise-free environment to do so can only help the community.
No one responded to this. I left smashboards and the melee community shortly after Brawl came out, and the situation they dealt with was similar to this, but much worse since the new people were extremely disrespectful toward the community behind the previous games. However I do think the back room character discussions they hosted were a step in the right direction.
It would be nice to see TL host invite only discussions on strategy topics in a forum closed to all but the best players and contributors. After a week of discussion a mod could move the thread to the SC2 strategy section and open it up for the rest of the users to post in. This way top players have a way to discuss strategy on the forum without interference, and the rest of the community can join the discussion after it has developed from the input of the best players/posters on the site.
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This goes against so much of what TL is all about.....
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On September 21 2010 10:08 Sprouter wrote:
you wouldn't need a separate forum for 'elite' players if people weren't so dumb when discussing balance. however i am wary about having an exclusive forum because it rail-roads the discussion of balance, making the guys who play enough games to be 1200+ diamond 'right' and everyone else 'wrong'.
i am skeptical that having an exclusive forum will get rid of the problems anyway. i expect it'll full of nerds who will now have an inflated ego and bigger sense of entitlement to have their arguments gratified.
Look at the forums now. More often than not it opens with "I'm #### Diamond, and I think x" Most often, you already have what you're looking for and it doesn't help.
Being good at the game doesn't mean you're a game designer, so stop pretending it does.
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EPT
