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On September 19 2010 03:28 Bags wrote:
I wish the game would build troops for me too, but unfortunately there's only so much the game should automate.
I think you grossly misunderstand the issue.
If the game didn't automate attack priorities, this wouldn't be a problem. Zealots would attack whatever is closest (the repairing scvs), and you could target fire whatever you wanted.
The problem is that the game does automate attack priorities. In most cases this is fine because the player can manually override. However, in some cases the burden the game puts one one player is so much greater than the other that it causes problems. This is most evident when you're fighting next to a planetary fortress.
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the best response to a thor all in push is void rays. also try to get your zealots to target the scvs to stop repairing. charge the void on a pylon before the battle if possible
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Your scv's already automatically repair shit for you bags, I realize your trying to be "clever" because you think that everyone should have 300 apm to kill an A-moving thor with scv's surrounding it , but you just sound like an ignorant hypocrite.
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On September 19 2010 02:47 kcdc wrote:
For those suggesting storm/immortals, you can't get storm in time. If you go 1-gate into robo, you can probably get enough immortals to kill the thor. But you shouldn't have to go 1-gate into robo to stop this push. If this were any other push that hits at the same time (bio, bio + medivacs, marine-tank, marine-banshee), my army would have crushed it easily. If my units would have just attacked the marines or the scvs, my army would have crushed the push easily.
Really though? Why shouldn't you have to tech change when they build to beat your units? That's just silly. If I'm massing marines, and the zerg goes banelings I shouldn't have to tech switch?
Not tryin to be an asshole, just saying. It's called a COUNTER for a reason? You counter what they're going with the natural hard hitting counter? And whats the chances of them having enough marines to eat your shields up on the immortals?
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terrans have way tooo many advantages.
They are easier to use... they pay less mistakes... and they can recover very well by harassment thank to mules.
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On September 19 2010 03:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 02:47 kcdc wrote:
For those suggesting storm/immortals, you can't get storm in time. If you go 1-gate into robo, you can probably get enough immortals to kill the thor. But you shouldn't have to go 1-gate into robo to stop this push. If this were any other push that hits at the same time (bio, bio + medivacs, marine-tank, marine-banshee), my army would have crushed it easily. If my units would have just attacked the marines or the scvs, my army would have crushed the push easily. Really though? Why shouldn't you have to tech change when they build to beat your units? That's just silly. If I'm massing marines, and the zerg goes banelings I shouldn't have to tech switch? Not tryin to be an asshole, just saying. It's called a COUNTER for a reason? You counter what they're going with the natural hard hitting counter? And whats the chances of them having enough marines to eat your shields up on the immortals?
If I understand your position, you believe 1-gate robo is a "counter" to thor timing push.
Okay, you're at 17 supply, what do you do? Do you throw down a second gateway? Expand? Robo?
Suppose you went 3 gate robo. You chrono your observer out and scout and learn he is going for a thor-push. Your logic is that "Well, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but you should tech switch to a 1 gate robo build so you could can retroactively have more immortals out to counter the thor."
Okay, suppose you went 1 gate robo. Observer comes out very fast, you see he has 4 rax, 3 with tech labs. Would your response be "Well, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but you can't expect 1 gate robo to beat bio timing pushes, you should have retroactively gone 1 gate FE or 3 gate robo to counter."
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A guy comes into you base with
a) a tanking unit surrounded with scvs
b) a mass of fragile dps units.
You response was to try to kill the tanking unit.
The thor is not your problem--not killing the marines is your problem. He moved his marines back for a reason....
And if focussing down the marines doesn't work pull some workers to help, you're a head a base anyway and he's semi-allin.
I'm not saying the ai for targetting scvs isn't problematic and unfair, I'm just saying you responded exactly like he wanted you to.
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On September 19 2010 01:19 Ketara wrote:
At the very very least, if the unit physically cannot attack the Thor because the SCVs have a perfect surround, it should target the SCVs.
I saw a game recently where Select stopped a 4 gate push by bringing 4-5 SCVs to his ramp and hold positioning them there, which completely broke the Zealot AI.
If the Thor is behind a wall of supply depots, the Zealot will change target and attack the depots. So if he's behind a wall of hold positioned or repairing SCVs, why doesn't he change target to the SCVs?
Such SCV 'walls' were back in BW too for ramp holding purposes. (actually, any worker could do that).
Back to the thread, I feel that repairing SCVs should have equal or higher priority than attacking units.
To whoever said that SCVs will absorb all the shots in all-ins. Just kill a few SCVs then back off then kill a few more then back off. Sounds like an easy crippling win.
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On September 19 2010 03:39 KillerPlague wrote:
the best response to a thor all in push is void rays. also try to get your zealots to target the scvs to stop repairing. charge the void on a pylon before the battle if possible
Did you watch the replay? The guy came with 1 thor, a bunch of scv's, and like 30 marines, good luck with a void ray.
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On September 19 2010 03:24 Michaelj wrote:
i keep saying this, but a way to change attack priorities on the fly would make sc2 so much easier. Just have your whole army either give priority to workers, army, or buildings, depending on the situation
I like this idea. It would greatly increase the depth of play(skill cap) in SC2.
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So kcdc had 11 zealots 7 stalkers 1 immortal 1 sentry at start of the fight for a total of 42 supply (he also pulled probes after zealots dropped plus warp ins and a 2nd immortal which joined the fight late, although these were mostly inconsequential). SebastianCox has 25 marines (with combat sheild and stim) and 1 thor for a total of 31 supply, plus 11 scv's on auto repair. The zealots did indeed bug out when they tried to go for the thor but it looks like they eventually did get to the marines before dieing. I'm not sure what can be done about that, but it looks like a strong push to be sure.
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Well now I know how to punish the FE that every toss does now.
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On September 19 2010 03:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 02:47 kcdc wrote:
For those suggesting storm/immortals, you can't get storm in time. If you go 1-gate into robo, you can probably get enough immortals to kill the thor. But you shouldn't have to go 1-gate into robo to stop this push. If this were any other push that hits at the same time (bio, bio + medivacs, marine-tank, marine-banshee), my army would have crushed it easily. If my units would have just attacked the marines or the scvs, my army would have crushed the push easily. Really though? Why shouldn't you have to tech change when they build to beat your units? That's just silly. If I'm massing marines, and the zerg goes banelings I shouldn't have to tech switch? Not tryin to be an asshole, just saying. It's called a COUNTER for a reason? You counter what they're going with the natural hard hitting counter? And whats the chances of them having enough marines to eat your shields up on the immortals?
To borrow a page from the Day[9] instructional manual, you're conflating forcing a composition and responding with a composition. You can't scout this push early enough to respond with a large number of immortals. Yes, you can survive this push if you go 1-gate robo and pump as many immortals as possible. But if that's the only way to survive the push (and I'm sure it's not), then the threat of this push forces you to open 1-gate robo and pump immortals every game until you scout that he's doing something else. Of course, the game would suck if the only stable opening were 1-gate robo....
I don't want to overstate this balance issue. I don't think that this push is unstoppable. In the game, I could have cut workers to get out a bunch more units, and with additional units, I probably could have focus fired the thor down with my immortals and stalkers. I just think this push is much stronger than it should be, and that its strength lies not in a clever combination of units, subtle timings, or great micro, but rather in a rather easily executed exploit of the target priority AI. If the defending units wouldn't just run in circles, the push would be stomped rather easily.
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On September 19 2010 03:54 Xlancer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 03:24 Michaelj wrote:
i keep saying this, but a way to change attack priorities on the fly would make sc2 so much easier. Just have your whole army either give priority to workers, army, or buildings, depending on the situation I like this idea. It would greatly increase the depth of play(skill cap) in SC2.
I like the idea just because it puts more human agency into decision making, however I don't think it will increase the depth of play much, if at all. You almost always want priority on army. Even against a terran, I can only imagine switching it to worker priority a few times each game.
You would almost never use building priority because target firing buildings is extremely easy if you need something destroyed.
I would prefer a more BW-like system where units attack the closest thing they can attack.
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On September 19 2010 03:51 PTZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 01:19 Ketara wrote:
At the very very least, if the unit physically cannot attack the Thor because the SCVs have a perfect surround, it should target the SCVs.
I saw a game recently where Select stopped a 4 gate push by bringing 4-5 SCVs to his ramp and hold positioning them there, which completely broke the Zealot AI.
If the Thor is behind a wall of supply depots, the Zealot will change target and attack the depots. So if he's behind a wall of hold positioned or repairing SCVs, why doesn't he change target to the SCVs? Such SCV 'walls' were back in BW too for ramp holding purposes. (actually, any worker could do that). Back to the thread, I feel that repairing SCVs should have equal or higher priority than attacking units. To whoever said that SCVs will absorb all the shots in all-ins. Just kill a few SCVs then back off then kill a few more then back off. Sounds like an easy crippling win.
I assure you 2fact in BW would have been much more powerful if siege tanks were able to be healed like a thor can currently, with 9 scvs completely wrapping around it and making it immune. On top of that, the Thor having so much health means that the Thor can still take some dmg without worry before the SCVs actually start repairing.
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On September 19 2010 03:50 Peekaboo wrote:
A guy comes into you base with
a) a tanking unit surrounded with scvs
b) a mass of fragile dps units.
You response was to try to kill the tanking unit.
The thor is not your problem--not killing the marines is your problem. He moved his marines back for a reason....
And if focussing down the marines doesn't work pull some workers to help, you're a head a base anyway and he's semi-allin.
I'm not saying the ai for targetting scvs isn't problematic and unfair, I'm just saying you responded exactly like he wanted you to.
I agree with this. Screw the thor, screw the SCVs... Run those zealots at the marines. They are doing WAY more damage than the thor. And thors dont do very good dps to zealots, who have huuuge HP.
If you had chargelots out, I see no possible way to win the fight as Terran. Just kill the marines as fast as possible, then you can turn off panic mode and just start picking off the scv's with micro.
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One of the ways I've come up with dealing with repairing scvs is to select the lings(lots for you) circling around the thor trying to attack it and use hold position, they'll attack the closest scv. It's not the best solution but it works well enough.
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On September 19 2010 03:55 Spaceball wrote:
So kcdc had 11 zealots 7 stalkers 1 immortal 1 sentry at start of the fight for a total of 42 supply (he also pulled probes after zealots dropped plus warp ins and a 2nd immortal which joined the fight late, although these were mostly inconsequential). SebastianCox has 25 marines (with combat sheild and stim) and 1 thor for a total of 31 supply, plus 11 scv's on auto repair. The zealots did indeed bug out when they tried to go for the thor but it looks like they eventually did get to the marines before dieing. I'm not sure what can be done about that, but it looks like a strong push to be sure.
That unit count looks correct.
11 zealots, 7 stalkers, 1 immortal and 1 sentry at the start of the fight is 2275/550
25 marines and 1 thor is 1550/300.
If you want to count the additional scvs, the Terran army is 2100/300. Of course, 3 probes also joined the fight with the zealots, so you could boost the initial cost of the Protoss army too. Also, the Protoss army reinforced considerably more. Another immortal and 3 more gateway units joined the fight along with ~20 probes after the zealots died while only 3 more marines joined in during this time. The fight was largely resolved by the point that the immortal, gateway units and probes joined in, but had the initial battle dented the marine force AT ALL, the Protoss reinforcement advantage would have held the push.
IMO, 2275/550 needs to at least do a little damage to 1550/300, even with a tech advantage and workers thrown in.
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On September 19 2010 04:07 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 03:50 Peekaboo wrote:
A guy comes into you base with
a) a tanking unit surrounded with scvs
b) a mass of fragile dps units.
You response was to try to kill the tanking unit.
The thor is not your problem--not killing the marines is your problem. He moved his marines back for a reason....
And if focussing down the marines doesn't work pull some workers to help, you're a head a base anyway and he's semi-allin.
I'm not saying the ai for targetting scvs isn't problematic and unfair, I'm just saying you responded exactly like he wanted you to. I agree with this. Screw the thor, screw the SCVs... Run those zealots at the marines. They are doing WAY more damage than the thor. And thors dont do very good dps to zealots, who have huuuge HP. If you had chargelots out, I see no possible way to win the fight as Terran. Just kill the marines as fast as possible, then you can turn off panic mode and just start picking off the scv's with micro.
Remember, I played against this 4 games in a row. I tried chasing the marines in the other games. The thor is freaking huge and the AI makes you try to hit it instead. You can individually focus fire the marines, but that makes you lose just like individually focus firing scvs does. Also, focus firing with melee units == loss.
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a few ppl mentioned that if you were able to get storm in time for this specific push (or even for a similar push later in the game) to storm the scvs... i disagree-
storm the marines and then send in zlots to clean up. worry about the thor/scv after the real dmg dealers are taken out. storming the scvs seems wasteful
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EPT
