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Hi guys! Long time lurker, first time poster here. I've been thinking about this for a while now, and even made a post on the Blizzard SC2 forums about this:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627976726#1
TL;DR that thread:
There is NO opportunity cost on forgetting to use Calldown: MULE
There is an EXTREME opportunity cost on forgetting to use Spawn Larvae
Forgot to use Calldown: MULE for a two+ minutes? No problem, spam it on a High Yield base of yours, or whatever base has the most minerals @ it (no need to worry about saturation, MULES mine over SCV's)
Forgot to use Spawn Larvae for two+ minutes? Extreme problem! You're now larva blocked when you need them the most. There is no getting these 'potential' larva back, at all.
How can Terran's go on thinking this is balanced?
Here's what I'm thinking. If you divide the energy price of the MULE by the default energy regen rate (not sure what that number is) you will get the 'effective cooldown' of the MULE (per OC). This is the fastest that you could use Calldown: MULE if you used it as soon as you had the requisite energy at the Orbital Command.
Put this 'effective cooldown' as the actual cooldown on the MULE. Therefore, nothing is changed during the early game (you can still use Calldown: MULE every X seconds, the same that you would be able to before this change), but late game it becomes impossible to calldown 10+ mules on a High Yield base or whatever.
I think this is a balanced solution to the problem. This rewards players for good Macro, and punishes players that forget to Macro.
EDIT: The great Liquidpedia has informed me that the internal energy regen rate in SC2 is 0.5625/second. This means that MULES have an 'effective cooldown' of 88.88 (repeating) seconds (out of game seconds). Adjusted for FASTER game speed (72.5% of out of game time) that is 64.44 (repeating) seconds.
Give MULES a 88-89 (64-65 ingames seconds) second cooldown -> nothing is changed early game -> late game it becomes impossible to spam MULES.
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depends on how many mules he saved up. if he couldnt beat him when he wasnt using mules, then idk what to say
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On September 16 2010 17:08 Frack wrote:
It would be interesting if the mule had a cooldown, say 30secs to a minute, but then chrono boost doesnt have a cool down and larva stacks.
But i wouldnt be opposed to a trial period of a cooldown to see how it works.
I've always thought there needed to be a limit on how many you can have out per orbital. Something along the lines of 2 per Orbital. It would just be a sort of internal supply for mules only.
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i do not understand the thread. there are plenty of games where protoss could have been behind in workers and they chrono boost the hell out of the nexuses and suddenly they are back even or ahead in worker count...just another terran hate thread it seems 
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On September 17 2010 02:22 avilo wrote:i do not understand the thread. there are plenty of games where protoss could have been behind in workers and they chrono boost the hell out of the nexuses and suddenly they are back even or ahead in worker count...just another terran hate thread it seems
Nobody said nothing needed to be changed about Chronoboost either. The same thing applies here. The ability to 'forget to macro' and then come back to a full energy Nexus and be able to dump all the energy instantly IS NOT BALANCED. This is the same thing, rewarding bad macro. There needs to be a cooldown on Chronoboost also.
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On September 16 2010 19:24 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings
You seem to forget you can make multiple drones at the same time.
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Keep in mind chrono and inject allow P and Z to produce workers literally twice as fast as T, so in reality its not as powerful as you might think.
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I beat some terrans earlier on ladder... Good thing I didn't read this first otherwise I would have just left after loading screen.
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On September 17 2010 02:12 Bleedorang3 wrote:
TL;DR that thread:
There is NO opportunity cost on forgetting to use Calldown: MULE
I stopped reading here. You have no idea what opportunity cost is.
270 minerals sooner = more SCV
more SCV = more minerals.
-- First SCV built at 5:50 because you had a mule will get 2000 minerals over the rest of the game (let's say)
miss mule = less SCV
less SCV = less minerals.
-- First SCV built at 6:00 because you had no mule, will get 1990 minerals over the rest of the game.
Good job, missing mule cost you some minerals.
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On September 17 2010 02:30 Wr3k wrote:
Keep in mind chrono and inject allow P and Z to produce workers literally twice as fast as T, so in reality its not as powerful as you might think.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You do realize, at least in Zergs case, that larvae have to be split between:
1: Drones
2: Combat Units
3: Supply (Overlords)
Correct? And then Drones have to be split again between harvesting and building creation.
Yes, MULES are as powerful as we think.
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On September 17 2010 02:35 Bags wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:12 Bleedorang3 wrote:
TL;DR that thread:
There is NO opportunity cost on forgetting to use Calldown: MULE
I stopped reading here.
Correct me then. What you said added literally nothing to the discussion.
Edit: Oh you sneaky editor :-P. Okay, so there is an opportunity cost on forgetting to C:M. Although it is extremely negligent when compared to the opportunity cost on forgetting to Spawn Larvae, imho.
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On September 17 2010 02:38 Bleedorang3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:35 Bags wrote:On September 17 2010 02:12 Bleedorang3 wrote:
TL;DR that thread:
There is NO opportunity cost on forgetting to use Calldown: MULE
I stopped reading here. Correct me then. What you said added literally nothing to the discussion. Edit: Oh you sneaky editor :-P. Okay, so there is an opportunity cost on forgetting to C:M. Although it is extremely negligent when compared to the opportunity cost on forgetting to Spawn Larvae, imho.
You can make like 7 drones at once with one base if you build nothing so I'm not sure how to do all the math on this one for OC. You can also use the larvae for troops so you can see why this is tricky.
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On September 17 2010 02:12 Bleedorang3 wrote:Hi guys! Long time lurker, first time poster here. I've been thinking about this for a while now, and even made a post on the Blizzard SC2 forums about this: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627976726#1TL;DR that thread: There is NO opportunity cost on forgetting to use Calldown: MULE There is an EXTREME opportunity cost on forgetting to use Spawn Larvae Forgot to use Calldown: MULE for a two+ minutes? No problem, spam it on a High Yield base of yours, or whatever base has the most minerals @ it (no need to worry about saturation, MULES mine over SCV's) Forgot to use Spawn Larvae for two+ minutes? Extreme problem! You're now larva blocked when you need them the most. There is no getting these 'potential' larva back, at all. How can Terran's go on thinking this is balanced? Here's what I'm thinking. If you divide the energy price of the MULE by the default energy regen rate (not sure what that number is) you will get the 'effective cooldown' of the MULE (per OC). This is the fastest that you could use Calldown: MULE if you used it as soon as you had the requisite energy at the Orbital Command. Put this 'effective cooldown' as the actual cooldown on the MULE. Therefore, nothing is changed during the early game (you can still use Calldown: MULE every X seconds, the same that you would be able to before this change), but late game it becomes impossible to calldown 10+ mules on a High Yield base or whatever. I think this is a balanced solution to the problem. This rewards players for good Macro, and punishes players that forget to Macro. EDIT: The great Liquidpedia has informed me that the internal energy regen rate in SC2 is 0.5625/second. This means that MULES have an 'effective cooldown' of 88.88 (repeating) seconds (out of game seconds). Adjusted for FASTER game speed (72.5% of out of game time) that is 64.44 (repeating) seconds. Give MULES a 64-65 second cooldown -> nothing is changed early game -> late game it becomes impossible to spam MULES.
Why not a cooldown.
But if you forget to mule, it's not like you lose nothing. You lose your ability to produce more stuff, while your opponent loses nothing.
So yeah, I'm not penalised if I forget to use my mule, except when I'm dead before for lacking units.
In fact, I think losing a game can be an acceptable penalty ?
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On September 17 2010 02:35 Bags wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:12 Bleedorang3 wrote:
TL;DR that thread:
There is NO opportunity cost on forgetting to use Calldown: MULE
I stopped reading here. You have no idea what opportunity cost is. 270 minerals sooner = more SCV more SCV = more minerals. -- First SCV built at 5:50 because you had a mule will get 2000 minerals over the rest of the game (let's say) miss mule = less SCV less SCV = less minerals. -- First SCV built at 6:00 because you had no mule, will get 1990 minerals over the rest of the game. Good job, missing mule cost you some minerals.
Lol you fail also, 270minerals DOES NOT always = more scv's
Your hard capped by the production queue. Your always supposed to be producing workers anyways. If your playing Zerg, and there was larva around...then yes 270minerals = more drones.
@ OP the only real gripe with mules I have is that it allows the Terran to have a HIGHER income cap then P and T players. I don't noe the numbers, but each Z and P base are capped with 24 + 6 workers to have a fixed income.
T player income is 24 workers + mules. It means they can support more production facilities off 1 base then P and Z players.
That and T macro just feels like it was designed to be forgiving. If we look at it like "oh 4get to keep building workers? here's some mules" or "supply capped? here's call down supply" OR "don't know what opponent's doing? here's scan". Though I'll admit other than Scans, T players scouting are limited.
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On September 16 2010 17:53 Scruff wrote:
Mules are fucken ridonkulous. Watch when they save up energy and drop 12 mules on to a gold expansion. Seriously, I once rushed a terran and killed almost every single SCV he had and 5 mins later he raped me with 20 marauder.
Why does blizzard make all terran units so unbelievably good?
Blizzard definitely got carried away with Terran. This has gone ignored long enough, something really needs to be done about this.
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On September 17 2010 02:36 Bleedorang3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:30 Wr3k wrote:
Keep in mind chrono and inject allow P and Z to produce workers literally twice as fast as T, so in reality its not as powerful as you might think. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You do realize, at least in Zergs case, that larvae have to be split between: 1: Drones 2: Combat Units 3: Supply (Overlords) Correct? And then Drones have to be split again between harvesting and building creation. Yes, MULES are as powerful as we think.
A 1hatch1queen Z can produce up to 7 drones per 40 seconds.
A 1 CC terran can produce up to 2.35 scv's in 40 seconds.
All Z has to do to beat T scv production is spend ~40% of their larva on drones. You also neglect the fact that Z will likely be up one base. So yes, the worker production rate is significantly larger for Z.
With P the calculation is a little more in depth, but if you spend the majority of chrono on your nexuses you get nearly double the worker production rate.
Yes, mules are good, but they are by no means better than chrono or spawn larva.
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On September 17 2010 02:22 avilo wrote:i do not understand the thread. there are plenty of games where protoss could have been behind in workers and they chrono boost the hell out of the nexuses and suddenly they are back even or ahead in worker count...just another terran hate thread it seems
You're the typical Terran that doesn't want his race to be balanced. We all know Terran is imbalanced quit trying to deny it.
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the mule is getting a nerf just like chrono boost and inject larva so we dont have things like 4 mules landing on gold minerals at once or something like that which wrecks the game.
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On September 16 2010 23:25 Zarahtra wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151067Mule isn't OP in the sense people usually talk about them as. They make terran require ~4.5 less workers per OC to stay on equal econ(if scan/drop supply is never used, else less). That isn't OP in any sense, it equals out the econ of the races with zerg having inject larvae and toss having chrono boost on their nexus. Note: this is assuming not oversaturated bases, mule ofcourse becomes more useful in that case(when you have more than 24 workers on minerals). It gets a bit tiredsome when the discussion always goes down to "you can call down multible mules at the same time, hence it's OP". It's not OP in any sense because of that, since you have had lower econ since you started "saving up" energy on your OC. It just equals the econ out in the end. What people _should_ be argueing about is the fact that mule allows terran to have 4.5 supply/OC less than the other 2 races spent on workers. This should be the argueing point, if the versitily of inject/chrono is enough to allow terran to require that much less supply spent on workers.
This is basically the same point I wanted to bring up when I read the OP. However, also consider this - it costs the equivalent of 3 workers, and it takes time to build, so you end up losing on worker count compared to your opponent. It doesn't give an edge until you are at near saturation. Once you get to 2+ bases (as well as your opponent), their greater number of workers split between multiple bases will give them a higher efficiency, to even it out again.
If you ever force a T to use a scan, its the equivalent of stopping 5 of his workers from mining for 90 seconds. And T almost always has to scan during the production of their starport (doing most kinds of builds involving a starport, you need to know which addon you need). The way I get around this is doing an early marine or marauder + hellion push (depending on what race I face, and what I scout from them), sending the hellions inside to harass/scout while the marines/marauders keep them busy. It costs me some minerals, but it keeps them away from me, and it allows me to use a MULE instead of a scan (or able to save the energy for if I need it vs DT or something).
The only time you need to worry is when they are using MULEs, with 24 scvs on minerals on 1 base, and are 1-basing you. Because their economy is higher than a one base P or Z, and can punish either race if they expand. Then again, the extra units that can be made are basically just marines and hellions (due to the same gas restriction applied to each race). P has an easier time dealing with this, due to the nature of some of their units. Z really needs to be on 2 bases, even if that means they only have mid 20 workers, because the increased efficiency is making up for the lower number of workers (remember the T has the equivalent of around 30 on minerals, not just 24).
MULEs are way awesome late-game, I'm not gonna lie about that, but I'd usually prefer to use my energy in scans instead (since gas is by far the resource I use fastest). MULEs are far from imbalanced..... And being late on a MULE early on can put your economy behind what it should be, weakening your army at the time..... They can help with a comeback, because they are basically 5 scvs you can't kill, until you kill the OC.....
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On September 17 2010 02:52 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:36 Bleedorang3 wrote:On September 17 2010 02:30 Wr3k wrote:
Keep in mind chrono and inject allow P and Z to produce workers literally twice as fast as T, so in reality its not as powerful as you might think. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You do realize, at least in Zergs case, that larvae have to be split between: 1: Drones 2: Combat Units 3: Supply (Overlords) Correct? And then Drones have to be split again between harvesting and building creation. Yes, MULES are as powerful as we think. A 1 base Z can produce up to 7 drones per 40 seconds. A 1 base terran can produce up to 2 scv's per 2.35 SCV's in that time. All Z has to do to beat T scv production is spend ~40% of their larva on drones. You also neglect the fact that Z will likely be up one base. So yes, the worker production rate is significantly larger for Z. With P the calculator is a little more in depth, but assuming one chrono is spent on a nexus every 40 seconds. (meaning 63% of chrono energy is used on nexus) you achieve approxamately double the worker production rate. Yes, mules are good, but they are by no means better than chrono or spawn larva.
Terran is even maybe even a little ahead early game because of the mule. After saturating the patches with 16 drones being able to make 7 drones in 40 secs is really insignificant; however, the mule continues to add a huge advantage to the Terran economy throughout the whole game with NO CONSEQUENCES if you forget to use the mule. On top of that Terran have the most cost effective units in the game. So if the Z drones too hard, he will get rolled.
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EPT
