EPTOf course mules are still pretty good. But not as good as that screenshot implies.
The Power of the Mule. - Page 9
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
Of course mules are still pretty good. But not as good as that screenshot implies. | ||
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Iced_tea
United States42 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote: lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.- one of the other problems not being said, is those 2 probes are 2 food. so if terran has 40 workers a toss player needs 50-60 to keep up with mules. so at a 200/200 army battle between the two toss is alrdy down 10-20 food just to stay even with the terran's income. i am a zerg player thats why the food from # of workers is more important. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:52 Wr3k wrote: A 1 base Z can produce up to 7 drones per 40 seconds. A 1 base terran can produce up to 2 scv's per 2.35 SCV's in that time. All Z has to do to beat T scv production is spend ~40% of their larva on drones. You also neglect the fact that Z will likely be up one base. So yes, the worker production rate is significantly larger for Z. With P the calculator is a little more in depth, but assuming one chrono is spent on a nexus every 40 seconds. (meaning 63% of chrono energy is used on nexus) you achieve approxamately double the worker production rate. Yes, mules are good, but they are by no means better than chrono or spawn larva. I don't know how you play Protoss, but I don't chrono the Nexus all the time. You often want Warpgates Observer Collosi etc. asap to be able to compete. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:22 Demand2k wrote: If Morrow didn't have enough energy for that many mules, he probably wouldn't have lost the battle as he'd have more units prior to the battle. Anyone can throw down six mules at once after they've neglected them for ages. Remember there is a trade off for summoning a mule. After saturation of your minerals yes mules can still increase your income as they can mine on a patch that an scv is already on. But after I am saturated I prefer to save energy for aggressive scanning. Whether that means that I start to push out and scan in front my force to see what he is pulling out to defend against the push or to simply scan his base to see whats there. Lets pretend that battle where morrow lots all of his scvs was a little closer closer. I think morrow would still feel a little uncomfortable pushing out because of the lack of scan. | ||
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brainpower
United States233 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:56 Miller wrote: Terran is even maybe even a little ahead early game because of the mule. After saturating the patches with 16 drones being able to make 7 drones in 40 secs is really insignificant; however, the mule continues to add a huge advantage to the Terran economy throughout the whole game with NO CONSEQUENCES if you forget to use the mule. On top of that Terran have the most cost effective units in the game. So if the Z drones too hard, he will get rolled. Yeah, mules are good, and the ability to make 7 drones in 40 seconds is significant, especially considering each additional drone gives a compounded advantage as the game goes on. Z can literally grow economy almost exponentially. It isn't uncommon for a Z player to beat T income by a good 30-40% while matching army supply. There are also many ways to force scans, diminishing the benefit of mules. I honestly think the strongest thing about a mule is that it costs no supply and allows T to sit on 1 base longer. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
The simplest thing would prolly just be to give them a cooldown which wouldn't change anything for good players and would punish bad players. You could still save for scan and might also help make cdsupply more useful during the cooldown. CB shouldn't have a cooldown cause it minimizes the strategic element of saving boosts. It's hard enough to spend chrono at like 3 bases as it is. | ||
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Bleedorang3
20 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:54 Impervious wrote: MULEs are way awesome late-game, I'm not gonna lie about that, but I'd usually prefer to use my energy in scans instead (since gas is by far the resource I use fastest). MULEs are far from imbalanced..... And being late on a MULE early on can put your economy behind what it should be, weakening your army at the time..... They can help with a comeback, because they are basically 5 scvs you can't kill, until you kill the OC..... I think this discussion is mainly about mid-late game. The alleged imbalance only shows itself when: A: Both players are on one base. Terran can 'oversaturate' using mules. (Early-Midgame) B: Lategame when macro become increasingly difficult. Terran players who forget to Calldown MULE aren't punished enough. Coming back to a high energy OC and being able to dump it all on MULES is almost like rewarding the player for forgetting to macro. The only analogy I can see fitting here is if Zerg was allowed to Spawn Larvae multiple times on a single hatchery. Do you think that would be balanced? 32 Larva popping from a single hatch all at the same time? | ||
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ShadowReaver
Canada563 Posts
Protoss have a cool down period for chonoboosting probes Zerg have a cool down period for spawning lava Why shouldn't terran? | ||
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Bags
United States69 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:49 me_viet wrote: Lol you fail also, 270minerals DOES NOT always = more scv's Your hard capped by the production queue. Your always supposed to be producing workers anyways. If your playing Zerg, and there was larva around...then yes 270minerals = more drones. If you have 5 SCV, 50 energy, and 0 minerals you can get an SCV faster with a mule than without. | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On September 17 2010 03:09 Bleedorang3 wrote: B: Lategame when macro become increasingly difficult. Terran players who forget to Calldown MULE aren't punished enough. Coming back to a high energy OC and being able to dump it all on MULES is almost like rewarding the player for forgetting to macro. The only analogy I can see fitting here is if Zerg was allowed to Spawn Larvae multiple times on a single hatchery. Do you think that would be balanced? 32 Larva popping from a single hatch all at the same time? Like I have already said just because an OC builds up energy to potentially summon 4 mules at once does not mean that the terran is having bad macro. Gas is still a limiting factor. During early game it is critical that your mule timing is on regardless of a gas heavy build or not because it will give you enough minerals to start your first expo. After you have your bases saturated and you are not gearing up to take another atm. It is much more worthwhile to save OC energy for the purpose of scanning. If I am going a pretty mineral heavy build even though I am not a top of the line player even in late game I am able to throw down mules by the time my OC reaches 60 energy. If I know I need all the minerals I can get then I don't save the energy. IF gas is going to be my limiting factor (as it almost always is) then I will save the energy for that critical scan that could see a tech switch. Or to scan in front of my army as I am pushing out. If my scan ahead of my force sees the opponent moving in to engage me I make sure I start siegeing my tanks in the back so I am not caught with everything out of position. As for spawn larva stacking I wouldn't have a problem with this even if a change to the mule happened. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 17 2010 03:26 Bags wrote: If you have 5 SCV, 50 energy, and 0 minerals you can get an SCV faster with a mule than without. Ok, so you get faster SCVs in a scenario that almost never happens. Big deal. In most scenarios, your SCVs will bring in 50 minerals before your MULE finishes its first trip. | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
do you guys realize that chrono boost is kinda like a double edged sword sure we can get units/research faster, but blizz nerfed all the research so that we HAVE to chrono boost it if we hit timing right compared chronoboosting research to mules is like if blizzard made SCV's mine 4 minerals per trip how would terrans like that ? also, chronoboosting probes is great but when you reach saturation the advantage is nullified | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
Seriously though people can we stop with the "terran so OP" | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On September 16 2010 23:34 MorroW wrote: its funyn u take that game as example because i fell behind insanily hard barely survived and then lost the game miserbly. i never got back into the game with the mule i just made the game last longer while i had so big disadvantage chrono boost and spawn larva lets u get out workers alot faster and i think thats better than the mule because the mule is always a set number of minerals while squeezing out workers faster multiplies in effectiveness :p ppl r really overdoing the mules "imbaness" i hope u realize if u nerfed it it would turn terran matchups so hard for terran because the mule actually gives that much mule nerf would be nice for gameplay imo but they would be forced to compensate it with other things for the terran race Does anyone else find Morrow's posts to be disturbingly... low quality for a player of his caliber? I will admit I've only seen him post twice, but both posts were in balance threads saying that if feature X (1.1 Tanks was the other one, IIRC) of Terran were to be nerfed the race would become unplayable. He also seems to be missing some of the points of the arguments, such as the fact that it didn't matter whether he won that game, just that the MULEs were able to supplement his income to such a huge degree. I'm not saying that he's bad or unqualified, just that there seem to be a lot of missing ideas from his posts here. OT: The main power of MULEs seems to be their ability to skyrocket Terran income on 1-2 base play. This lets them match Protoss and Zerg players with more bases, and lets them expand later and focus on harass earlier. I wouldn't say it's the core of the problem, but it meshes very strongly with the innate features of the Terran race- extreme harass ability, the versatile and powerful Marine, and strong mineral-heavy static defense- to really boost the strength of certain varieties of Terran play. If, say, Zerg got MULEs, then they really wouldn't be able to abuse them as much, because Zerg is primarily limited by gas. Giant Zergling armies just aren't as strong, and there's no harass Zerg can really rush to on one or two bases to make use of the accelerated income. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 17 2010 04:24 Condor Hero wrote: wish people would stop bitching about chrono boost do you guys realize that chrono boost is kinda like a double edged sword sure we can get units/research faster, but blizz nerfed all the research so that we HAVE to chrono boost it if we hit timing right Probes still have the same build time as SCVs and Drones, and all attack/armor upgrades have the same research time as their Zerg/Terran counterparts. It's extremely presumptuous to say that your tech is balanced in such a way to REQUIRE Chrono Boost when all directly comparable examples indicate otherwise. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
On September 17 2010 03:00 Iced_tea wrote: one of the other problems not being said, is those 2 probes are 2 food. so if terran has 40 workers a toss player needs 50-60 to keep up with mules. so at a 200/200 army battle between the two toss is alrdy down 10-20 food just to stay even with the terran's income. i am a zerg player thats why the food from # of workers is more important. he is also missing that because you just built 2 probes instead of 1 scv that is 50 minerals that is not currently in your army. this makes it difficult when you are expanding. Should you chrono boost 4 probes or get an extra zealot or something to help hold these two bases... | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 17 2010 04:30 TheYango wrote: Probes still have the same build time as SCVs and Drones, and all attack/armor upgrades have the same research time as their Zerg/Terran counterparts. It's extremely presumptuous to say that your tech is balanced in such a way to REQUIRE Chrono Boost when all directly comparable examples indicate otherwise. Tech timings aren't always the same. Protoss unlike Zerg or Terran have very bottom heavy splintered Tech tree, all with long research abilities that are almost necessary, what Storm, Amulet, Thermal Lances and Interceptor rate is to Protoss is much more than than what Yamato/250MM Cannon is to Terran. I think it is almost assumed that a large amount of your chronoboost is meant to go into tech. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On September 16 2010 23:18 awesomoecalypse wrote: No, a direct comparison would be if Spawn Larva had no cooldown in the same way that Chronoboost and Mule don't. So a Queen could save up a bunch of energy (or forget to use it for a while), then spawn like 30 larva at one hatchery when they did remember by spamming it out. Of course, this would be broken... Kinda like Mules are broken. This. Another equivalent analogy is if chrono-boosts stacked on structures so you can dump 4 CB on a templar archive or forge to make the effects cumulative. On September 17 2010 03:00 Grummler wrote: Just for the record: Protoss has only 2 bases. With that amount of probes he should have atleast 3, optimal would be 4. And the screenshot happens to be right after the terran called down a whole bunch of mules. Obviously your income while rise high for a short period of time. Of course mules are still pretty good. But not as good as that screenshot implies. 54 - 12 on gas= 42 probes on two bases, 21 per base. seems pretty reasonable. | ||
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