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On September 17 2010 05:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote:
lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.- Lets not negate the fact that these 4 probes you'll get out of 50 energy, still wont mine the same amount as a mule, and with the 2 scvs you made you'll actually exceed the amount! totally balanced
if chrono boost could only be used on probes, that would be an example of imbalance, yes.
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On September 17 2010 06:52 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 06:48 koppik wrote:
When at full saturation, a terran will mine slightly faster thanks to mules. But, really, you need 52 workers to optimally saturate two bases. Against a Protoss, for instance, who has been chrono'ing probes like crazy, he'll reach that point 3 minutes later than his Protoss opponent.
A zerg would reach full saturation even quicker. I was just thinking, the longer a game lasts, are mules not actually a bad thing? Since yes, you'll have the boost in minerals now, but you're going to mine out faster than your opponent and being in a game where you've mined all your bases out, to someone still mining, I think we know how that ends.  Mules never become a "bad" thing. You mine out quicker, but that's fine. You would have gotten the same amount of minerals if you didn't mule.
But, yeah, as you get closer to mining out, the less a mule is really worth. Eventually, I think, it's better to use scans later on in the game and really just mule when you establish a new base, with minerals that aren't close to being mined out. "Mule Xing" or something.
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On September 17 2010 06:48 koppik wrote:
When at full saturation, a terran will mine slightly faster thanks to mules. But, really, you need 52 workers to optimally saturate two bases. Against a Protoss, for instance, who has been chrono'ing probes like crazy, he'll reach that point 3 minutes later than his Protoss opponent. A zerg would reach full saturation even quicker.
MULES are good, and Terran needs them. In terms of power as a macromechanic, it goes
larva inject >> chronoboost > mules.
But by boosting probes he is sacrificing boosted upgrades and units, so the Terran player should be ahead in tech / army if the Protoss player is 100% chrono boosting probes.
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On September 17 2010 06:56 phant wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 06:48 koppik wrote:
When at full saturation, a terran will mine slightly faster thanks to mules. But, really, you need 52 workers to optimally saturate two bases. Against a Protoss, for instance, who has been chrono'ing probes like crazy, he'll reach that point 3 minutes later than his Protoss opponent. A zerg would reach full saturation even quicker.
MULES are good, and Terran needs them. In terms of power as a macromechanic, it goes
larva inject >> chronoboost > mules. But by boosting probes he is sacrificing boosted upgrades and units, so the Terran player should be ahead in tech / army if the Protoss player is 100% chrono boosting probes.
This, because Blizzard decided to make every protoss research and unit take that much longer because of chronoboost.
Sometimes I think it's a curse in disguise.
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Ok, lets just set the numbers straight here on  Chrono Boost. Each Nexus can CB every 44.44 seconds for a 20s duration (.5625 Energy per second). CB increases production by 50%. This is a 22.5% production boost on one building. Twenty Two Point Five Percent. There is no double production speed or 2 probes per 1 scv, or even 3:2. Now with that out of the way, have fun trying to macro out of multiple asynchronous warpgates (both from different unit timers and CB) without losing build time and microing units and their spells.
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On September 17 2010 06:57 tetramaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 06:56 phant wrote:On September 17 2010 06:48 koppik wrote:
When at full saturation, a terran will mine slightly faster thanks to mules. But, really, you need 52 workers to optimally saturate two bases. Against a Protoss, for instance, who has been chrono'ing probes like crazy, he'll reach that point 3 minutes later than his Protoss opponent. A zerg would reach full saturation even quicker.
MULES are good, and Terran needs them. In terms of power as a macromechanic, it goes
larva inject >> chronoboost > mules. But by boosting probes he is sacrificing boosted upgrades and units, so the Terran player should be ahead in tech / army if the Protoss player is 100% chrono boosting probes. This, because Blizzard decided to make every protoss research and unit take that much longer because of chronoboost. Sometimes I think it's a curse in disguise.
Hmm. Protoss get a research speed boosting ability, so their research times are longer by default. Zerg get movement speed boosting creep, so their units are slower by default. Terran get a mineral boosting ability, and their units have... good cost efficiency? Something doesn't add up here. <.<
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Hmm. Protoss get a research speed boosting ability, so their research times are longer by default.
Actually they're about the same if you compare them to BW, except warpgate, but that was changed for an altogether different reason lol.
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That's just a nifty mechanic. If you kill a zerg army, then they can remake it faster than the other races. Protoss can get research done faster with chronoboost, and in a low econ environment, Terran has an advantage. It's the way this game works; all the races are different.
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Basically this whole thread comes down to the theoretical situation of a terran spamming mules at a new gold expo, because lets face it that is the one and only situation where mules are possibly OP. Anything before that, mules at the beginning or on 2 bases, is just tit for tat vs. chrono and larva.
If you see the terran spam mules at a gold, here's a thought...that's the perfect time to make use of cloaked/burrowed units.
I'm sure it's been said - toss and zerg can force terran to scan thereby missing a mule opportunity, terran can't really dictate when and how chrono/larva is used.
Perhaps the cloak/burrow units need some tweaking to maybe make mule vs. scan a more serious decision early/mid game ?
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On September 16 2010 19:17 LaLuSh wrote:
What you don't realize often is that in SC2, you reach full saturation on 1base pretty quick. The only point where Protoss has an income advantage vs terran is during the first 4-5 minutes of the game. As you move towards full saturation, terran is going to mine more minerals than you every subsequent minute because of the MULE.
The terran macro mechanic promotes aggression with very little economical punishment.
As long as terran can keep Protoss on 1base vs 1base, they will win.
As long as terran can keep being aggressive vs zerg they can match the zerg's income on 2bases with 1base MULE, and then surpass the zerg when they lift out their second Orbital Command to the expo (even if it's a really late expo after 11-12 minutes).
This post needs more love since it is absolutely true and is an undeniable problem with MULEs.
Couple this with the fact it provides Terran with the only mechanic that can let them come back from losing all of their miners/base (throw in flying builds to make this even more absurd) shows an obvious problem with the mechanic.
Either put a timer on them, make it so you can only have 1 per CC or decrease the mana of the CC. Idc what you do but something has to be done imo.
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Without mules, destroying a terran mineral line would put them irreparably behind. Every counter strategy to terran would involve destroying their scv's because they would be the slowest at reproducing them.
As an aside, which of the terran units/structures has not been claimed as OP?
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On September 17 2010 08:19 Duese wrote:
Without mules, destroying a terran mineral line would put them irreparably behind. Every counter strategy to terran would involve destroying their scv's because they would be the slowest at reproducing them.
As an aside, which of the terran units/structures has not been claimed as OP?
This doens't mean they shouldn't be changed. Noone is saying take them out of the game, rather limit them in a way that finds a middle ground between "the best macro mechanic in the game at any stage" vs "gimp and useless."
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On September 17 2010 07:16 Darkstar_X wrote:Ok, lets just set the numbers straight here on Chrono Boost. Each Nexus can CB every 44.44 seconds for a 20s duration (.5625 Energy per second). CB increases production by 50%. This is a 22.5% production boost on one building. Twenty Two Point Five Percent. There is no double production speed or 2 probes per 1 scv, or even 3:2. Now with that out of the way, have fun trying to macro out of multiple asynchronous warpgates (both from different unit timers and CB) without losing build time and microing units and their spells.
Going by those numbers, Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm only doing some napkin maths
* Chrono boost reduces build time to 66.67% for 20seconds
* Nexus can Chrono boost every 44.44seconds, therefore, Chronoboost can be up for 27seconds of every minute
So, Chronoboost, if constantly used on a single Nexus, over 60seconds, reduces the effective build time of all units (assuming constant production) to 85%.
To saturate a single base you need 30scv's. This means it takes Terran 510seconds to real full SVC saturation and Protoss 433.5seconds (slightly quicker or slower depending on how the last 13.5 seconds line up with the Chronoboost). So this means when Protoss reaches full saturation (30 Probes), Terran will have 26 SVC's. So effectively, it's 26 SVC's to 30 Probes assuming constant Chrono boosting on a nexus.
TL;DR : Assuming Constant Chronoboosting on a single Nexus by a single Nexus, SVC to Probe ratio will be 13:15. Assuming 1 mule = 4 Harvesters (180 per 60seconds), Mules dwarf the contribution of constant Chrono boosting on a nexus for Probe production (not using a single Chronoboost on tech, only Nexus, everytime it's up)
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do not forget the build-time of the OC, dunno about numers, should be pretty much two probes
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On September 17 2010 08:56 fueNN wrote:
do not forget the build-time of the OC, dunno about numers, should be pretty much two probes
Yeah I purposely left out things like loss of mining time due to SVC's building, Orbital command build time, etc, mainly because I'm assuming chrono boost is used non stop on the nexus. If you assume 50% of the chronoboosts are used then the ratio is like 14 svc's to 15 Probes, the first Mule that comes down pretty much does x4 the work of Chrono boosting a single nexus 50% of the time over 8mins~...
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On September 17 2010 04:30 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 23:34 MorroW wrote:
its funyn u take that game as example because i fell behind insanily hard barely survived and then lost the game miserbly. i never got back into the game with the mule i just made the game last longer while i had so big disadvantage
chrono boost and spawn larva lets u get out workers alot faster and i think thats better than the mule because the mule is always a set number of minerals while squeezing out workers faster multiplies in effectiveness :p
ppl r really overdoing the mules "imbaness" i hope u realize if u nerfed it it would turn terran matchups so hard for terran because the mule actually gives that much
mule nerf would be nice for gameplay imo but they would be forced to compensate it with other things for the terran race Does anyone else find Morrow's posts to be disturbingly... low quality for a player of his caliber? I will admit I've only seen him post twice, but both posts were in balance threads saying that if feature X (1.1 Tanks was the other one, IIRC) of Terran were to be nerfed the race would become unplayable. He also seems to be missing some of the points of the arguments, such as the fact that it didn't matter whether he won that game, just that the MULEs were able to supplement his income to such a huge degree. I'm not saying that he's bad or unqualified, just that there seem to be a lot of missing ideas from his posts here. OT: The main power of MULEs seems to be their ability to skyrocket Terran income on 1-2 base play. This lets them match Protoss and Zerg players with more bases, and lets them expand later and focus on harass earlier. I wouldn't say it's the core of the problem, but it meshes very strongly with the innate features of the Terran race- extreme harass ability, the versatile and powerful Marine, and strong mineral-heavy static defense- to really boost the strength of certain varieties of Terran play. If, say, Zerg got MULEs, then they really wouldn't be able to abuse them as much, because Zerg is primarily limited by gas. Giant Zergling armies just aren't as strong, and there's no harass Zerg can really rush to on one or two bases to make use of the accelerated income.
People confuse being a top player for being smart. There is no correlation between the two.
Anyway I think the mule is far more complex than people make it out it be. It effects so many varying factors that it's not even funny. They should just remove all the macro mechanics and implement proper maps in the ladder. Then the game will be sorted.
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lol, that screenie is pretty hilarious
also, morrow bias is really just sad.
u guys see that massive wall of his posts dug up by LaLusH? In beta he whined with the best about pretty much everything he could.
now he just harps on about how Z players just need to practise more, there's nothing wrong with terran, and any nerf will make them unplayable, unless balanced with a simultaneous buff.
his posts are awful for a top level player.
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On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote:
lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.-
zerg can make lots of drones simultaneously but yea.
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every race has a special ability, chrono boost, mule, and extra larvae. i think mule is hte most economic, but the other two are equally useful
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are you sure HuK wasn't transferring workers at that point? if he was then it would only make sense... to be honest i cant believe that having 18 harvesters could beat 54... i really think HuK was transferring a lot of workers at that point where the screen shot was taken.
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EPT
