• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:07
CEST 05:07
KST 12:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202561RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension5
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Server Blocker Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update The StarCraft 2 GOAT - An in-depth analysis
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 720 users

The Power of the Mule. - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 10 11 12 13 14 27 Next All
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
September 17 2010 01:59 GMT
#221
On September 17 2010 10:41 TheTeamLiquidTiger wrote:
every race has a special ability, chrono boost, mule, and extra larvae. i think mule is hte most economic, but the other two are equally useful


the issue is that if zerg miss an inject, too bad. need an army? oh sorry u forgot to inject, gg.

terran: zomg i haven't used any mules from my 2 bases in like 3 minutes!

*drops 8*
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-17 02:22:10
September 17 2010 02:17 GMT
#222
On September 17 2010 10:57 PaPoolee wrote:
are you sure HuK wasn't transferring workers at that point? if he was then it would only make sense... to be honest i cant believe that having 18 harvesters could beat 54... i really think HuK was transferring a lot of workers at that point where the screen shot was taken.


From TL wiki

*Three SCVs on one mineral patch harvest ~102 minerals per game minute. This is fully saturated and does not depend on distance.


Three SCVs on gas harvest 101-114 gas per game minute, depending on distance. In the case of far-diagonal gas placement you will need 4 SCVs for full saturation.


1320 minerals per min / 102 = ~39 Harvesters
480 gas per min / 101 = ~12 Harvesters

Total = ~51, the distances of the mining nodes could easily swing +3/4 Probes

EDIT:

19 SCV's = ~657minerals per min
4 Mules = ~720 minerals per min
Chen
Profile Joined June 2009
United States6344 Posts
September 17 2010 02:23 GMT
#223
On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote:
lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.-

chrono is +50%, not +100%. toss gets out around 1.5 workers for your 1. just an FYI.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
September 17 2010 02:37 GMT
#224
On September 17 2010 11:23 Chen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote:
lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.-

chrono is +50%, not +100%. toss gets out around 1.5 workers for your 1. just an FYI.


From my earlier post, it came out to 1.15 probes per 1 svc
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-17 03:09:21
September 17 2010 03:06 GMT
#225
On September 17 2010 10:59 Subversion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 10:41 TheTeamLiquidTiger wrote:
every race has a special ability, chrono boost, mule, and extra larvae. i think mule is hte most economic, but the other two are equally useful


the issue is that if zerg miss an inject, too bad. need an army? oh sorry u forgot to inject, gg.

terran: zomg i haven't used any mules from my 2 bases in like 3 minutes!

*drops 8*

Well think about it this way. If you kill mules, or force terran to use scans, you're making him lose mules. They can't really do that to queens. That's energy wasted as well.

If you contaminate a chronoboosted building (or focus it down with stimmed marauders), that's a chronoboost wasted.

There are ways that it all evens out.

The difference is that for zerg, how much energy gets wasted depends on how good the user is, while for the other two races, it depends on how good the opponent is.
Kaza
Profile Joined April 2010
United States31 Posts
September 17 2010 03:14 GMT
#226
I think this is a really good game to show how the mule is too strong.

http://www.mlgpro.com/content/link/312207/MLG-Raleigh-2010-Starcraft-2-Rebroadcast\

WB4 LastShadow vs Slush

LastShadow brings almost all his scvs into the fight and after the fight both players are broken. LastShadow drops some mules and just pulls so far ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if Terran start playing this into their favor more.
Martinni
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada169 Posts
September 17 2010 03:34 GMT
#227
Here's my proposition: Make it so that you can only have 1 mule per CC at a time... That way it would punish poor macro a little like the injection macro with zerg. It wouldn't nerf early game as most player remember to put them down but rather late game.
this is kinda like the guy that started milking and cows... what the hell was he doing?
Nakama
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany584 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-17 03:52:43
September 17 2010 03:40 GMT
#228
Isnt like like terra has the hardest fight/military mechanics so therefore their eco ismore forgiving?
If u get a little drop and u are out of posi ur fucked toss has warpgate and zerg queen and creep.
If u forget a uprgarde ur fucked toss can just chronoboost it...
If u dotn make units out of ur production facilities constantly ur fucked zerg can stockpile up to 3 or 4 laerva perbase they onlyhave to watch at one building to know if they have tobuild sth or not
if u inject constatnly as zerg u can afford it to forget some drones casue afterwards u jsut spam 14 at once

Edit: As terra u have to precounter ur oppontent much more then with the other races cause neither cant warp in critical units instantly neither can u place 1scout at ur opponents ramp and by the timehe pushes out u can respond within 30 sec with atleast 14 more critical units

Every race has its ups and downs and to compare the weaknees of 1 race to the strong point of the other is sensless exept u want 3 races wich play exactly the same and only look diffrent
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44311 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-17 03:53:27
September 17 2010 03:52 GMT
#229
On September 16 2010 17:35 Nytefish wrote:
Mules should cost supply


+1

I think this is an awesome idea. We don't need to tweak the mechanics of nerfing MULEs in the sense of cooldowns, extra energy costs, or strictly limiting x per base... but a Terran should be able to afford (supply-wise) to create them. When they break down, the supply vanishes too. When you're maxed at 200, you can't make MULEs. Besides, when you have a 200/200 army, you really don't need an influx of minerals anyway.

MULEs = 2 supply each. Bam. Super easy tweak, IMO. Not game-breaking, doesn't screw up other orbital command abilities, and is a viable nerf imo.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
September 17 2010 04:01 GMT
#230
On September 17 2010 02:52 Wr3k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 02:36 Bleedorang3 wrote:
On September 17 2010 02:30 Wr3k wrote:
Keep in mind chrono and inject allow P and Z to produce workers literally twice as fast as T, so in reality its not as powerful as you might think.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You do realize, at least in Zergs case, that larvae have to be split between:

1: Drones
2: Combat Units
3: Supply (Overlords)

Correct? And then Drones have to be split again between harvesting and building creation.

Yes, MULES are as powerful as we think.


A 1hatch1queen Z can produce up to 7 drones per 40 seconds.
A 1 CC terran can produce up to 2.35 scv's in 40 seconds.
All Z has to do to beat T scv production is spend ~40% of their larva on drones. You also neglect the fact that Z will likely be up one base. So yes, the worker production rate is significantly larger for Z.

With P the calculation is a little more in depth, but if you spend the majority of chrono on your nexuses you get nearly double the worker production rate.

Yes, mules are good, but they are by no means better than chrono or spawn larva.



So wait... Getting an expansion increases production Capacity? Really? Only for Zerg right?

*facepalm*
EliteAzn
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States661 Posts
September 17 2010 04:04 GMT
#231
One thing you guys are forgetting is that SCVs are needed to build buildings for Terran. I don't know if that makes a huge difference, but I just want to know how big of an impact it is.
(╯`Д´)╯︵ ┻━┻ High Five! _o /\ o_
kidcrash
Profile Joined September 2009
United States620 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-17 04:13:19
September 17 2010 04:09 GMT
#232
I feel like mule deserves a cool down of at least 40 seconds. Spawn larvae has a cool down so why shouldn't mule? You can stack resources the same way you can stack larvae. Think of stacking spawn larvae as a cushion for the restraints of the ability (resources and apm restraints). By nature the only restraint to mule is an APM restraint so it really doesn't need this cushion to begin with.

eth3n
Profile Joined August 2010
718 Posts
September 17 2010 04:14 GMT
#233
On September 17 2010 02:52 Wr3k wrote:
A 1hatch1queen Z can produce up to 7 drones per 40 seconds.
A 1 CC terran can produce up to 2.35 scv's in 40 seconds.
All Z has to do to beat T scv production is spend ~40% of their larva on drones. You also neglect the fact that Z will likely be up one base. So yes, the worker production rate is significantly larger for Z.

With P the calculation is a little more in depth, but if you spend the majority of chrono on your nexuses you get nearly double the worker production rate.

Yes, mules are good, but they are by no means better than chrono or spawn larva.


I sincerely doubt you have ever played zerg, because the entire game is knowing when you can drone and when you can't
Idra Potter: I don't use avada kedavra because i have self-respect.
zerg4hire
Profile Joined August 2010
81 Posts
September 17 2010 04:19 GMT
#234
Here is another major flaw Blizzard didnt see it would come one day.
Nexus only having 1 ability (Chrono Boost).

In my opinion, Chrono boosts are fine the way it is.
It determines Protoss' strategy and the path they want to take.

They can decide to pump out probes or chrono boost multiple gateways to apply early pressure.
By adding cooldown, it makes Starcraft 2 less tectic than it is already...

Just give Nexus an additional ability with a cooldown which is significant compare to Chronoboost.
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
September 17 2010 04:19 GMT
#235
If you made mules cost supply, it could help make calldown supply more interesting when used in conjunction with it.

Ive often thought that mules should be nerfed and calldown supply buffed. Perhaps it actually lets your supply depots have more health +150% health and 100% supply, so you can choose to use them at walls for some extra beefiness. Maybe make them lose armored attribute?
Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
Darkstar_X
Profile Joined May 2010
United States197 Posts
September 17 2010 04:36 GMT
#236
It's not "making an opponent waste a scan," it's them choosing tactical information over resources. As far as OC and Nexus ability changes, I would love scan to not detect, or a Nexus ability that only detects (like scan, but only detects no vision).
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
September 17 2010 04:44 GMT
#237
On September 16 2010 17:22 Demand2k wrote:
If Morrow didn't have enough energy for that many mules, he probably wouldn't have lost the battle as he'd have more units prior to the battle. Anyone can throw down six mules at once after they've neglected them for ages.


Not true, that's assuming that Morrow had spare production buildings idle.

Yes it's the fact that any1 can throw down six mules at once after they're neglected that I have a gripe with. You can't go around missing inject larva and just inject 6 times.
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
September 17 2010 04:49 GMT
#238
Nerfing a core economy mechanic like the MULE would be the dumbest thing blizzard could do at this point in the game. Anyone who do not realize just how huge the effects are even from slight changes to economy mechanics should get off balance discussions right now.

From a design point of view it would be completely pointless to nerf the mule because the effects would be so wide and across the entire length of the game that it is nearly impossible to analyze it correctly.

But anyway, its really entertaining to see how zerg having issues with terran early game can cause this mass hysteria where everyone is seeing the devil around the corner. Suddently every single terran unit/building is OP. I just await the threads on how supply depots are imba now.

There are unfortunately way too many wanna-be game designers on these forums who sadly do not understand how the game works even at the most superficial level.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
attackfighter
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada308 Posts
September 17 2010 04:53 GMT
#239
On September 17 2010 10:59 Subversion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 10:41 TheTeamLiquidTiger wrote:
every race has a special ability, chrono boost, mule, and extra larvae. i think mule is hte most economic, but the other two are equally useful


the issue is that if zerg miss an inject, too bad. need an army? oh sorry u forgot to inject, gg.

terran: zomg i haven't used any mules from my 2 bases in like 3 minutes!

*drops 8*


Pro players shouldn't have huge macro problems like that, and the game shouldn't be balanced around casual players, so I fail to see the 'issue'.
brain_
Profile Joined June 2010
United States812 Posts
September 17 2010 04:54 GMT
#240
The MULE was a really stupid idea from the outset. It has none of the finesse and element of choice of chrono boosting, all the mindlessness of larvae injecting, and double the strength of both.
Prev 1 10 11 12 13 14 27 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 53m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft318
Nina 229
RuFF_SC2 172
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4172
Sexy 69
NaDa 57
Terrorterran 14
Icarus 6
Dota 2
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1087
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King194
amsayoshi49
Other Games
summit1g10795
tarik_tv8941
shahzam710
JimRising 461
C9.Mang0217
ViBE208
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1288
BasetradeTV23
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 81
• practicex 4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4560
• Lourlo732
• Stunt308
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
6h 53m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
10h 53m
CSO Cup
12h 53m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14h 53m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 5h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 10h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 14h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL Team Wars
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.