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On September 17 2010 10:41 TheTeamLiquidTiger wrote:
every race has a special ability, chrono boost, mule, and extra larvae. i think mule is hte most economic, but the other two are equally useful
the issue is that if zerg miss an inject, too bad. need an army? oh sorry u forgot to inject, gg.
terran: zomg i haven't used any mules from my 2 bases in like 3 minutes!
*drops 8*
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On September 17 2010 10:57 PaPoolee wrote:
are you sure HuK wasn't transferring workers at that point? if he was then it would only make sense... to be honest i cant believe that having 18 harvesters could beat 54... i really think HuK was transferring a lot of workers at that point where the screen shot was taken.
From TL wiki
*Three SCVs on one mineral patch harvest ~102 minerals per game minute. This is fully saturated and does not depend on distance.
Three SCVs on gas harvest 101-114 gas per game minute, depending on distance. In the case of far-diagonal gas placement you will need 4 SCVs for full saturation.
1320 minerals per min / 102 = ~39 Harvesters
480 gas per min / 101 = ~12 Harvesters
Total = ~51, the distances of the mining nodes could easily swing +3/4 Probes
EDIT:
19 SCV's = ~657minerals per min
4 Mules = ~720 minerals per min
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On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote:
lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.-
chrono is +50%, not +100%. toss gets out around 1.5 workers for your 1. just an FYI.
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On September 17 2010 11:23 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote:
lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.- chrono is +50%, not +100%. toss gets out around 1.5 workers for your 1. just an FYI.
From my earlier post, it came out to 1.15 probes per 1 svc
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On September 17 2010 10:59 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 10:41 TheTeamLiquidTiger wrote:
every race has a special ability, chrono boost, mule, and extra larvae. i think mule is hte most economic, but the other two are equally useful the issue is that if zerg miss an inject, too bad. need an army? oh sorry u forgot to inject, gg. terran: zomg i haven't used any mules from my 2 bases in like 3 minutes! *drops 8*
Well think about it this way. If you kill mules, or force terran to use scans, you're making him lose mules. They can't really do that to queens. That's energy wasted as well.
If you contaminate a chronoboosted building (or focus it down with stimmed marauders), that's a chronoboost wasted.
There are ways that it all evens out.
The difference is that for zerg, how much energy gets wasted depends on how good the user is, while for the other two races, it depends on how good the opponent is.
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Here's my proposition: Make it so that you can only have 1 mule per CC at a time... That way it would punish poor macro a little like the injection macro with zerg. It wouldn't nerf early game as most player remember to put them down but rather late game.
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Isnt like like terra has the hardest fight/military mechanics so therefore their eco ismore forgiving?
If u get a little drop and u are out of posi ur fucked toss has warpgate and zerg queen and creep.
If u forget a uprgarde ur fucked toss can just chronoboost it...
If u dotn make units out of ur production facilities constantly ur fucked zerg can stockpile up to 3 or 4 laerva perbase they onlyhave to watch at one building to know if they have tobuild sth or not
if u inject constatnly as zerg u can afford it to forget some drones casue afterwards u jsut spam 14 at once
Edit: As terra u have to precounter ur oppontent much more then with the other races cause neither cant warp in critical units instantly neither can u place 1scout at ur opponents ramp and by the timehe pushes out u can respond within 30 sec with atleast 14 more critical units
Every race has its ups and downs and to compare the weaknees of 1 race to the strong point of the other is sensless exept u want 3 races wich play exactly the same and only look diffrent
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On September 16 2010 17:35 Nytefish wrote:Mules should cost supply 
+1
I think this is an awesome idea. We don't need to tweak the mechanics of nerfing MULEs in the sense of cooldowns, extra energy costs, or strictly limiting x per base... but a Terran should be able to afford (supply-wise) to create them. When they break down, the supply vanishes too. When you're maxed at 200, you can't make MULEs. Besides, when you have a 200/200 army, you really don't need an influx of minerals anyway.
MULEs = 2 supply each. Bam. Super easy tweak, IMO. Not game-breaking, doesn't screw up other orbital command abilities, and is a viable nerf imo.
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On September 17 2010 02:52 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:36 Bleedorang3 wrote:On September 17 2010 02:30 Wr3k wrote:
Keep in mind chrono and inject allow P and Z to produce workers literally twice as fast as T, so in reality its not as powerful as you might think. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You do realize, at least in Zergs case, that larvae have to be split between: 1: Drones 2: Combat Units 3: Supply (Overlords) Correct? And then Drones have to be split again between harvesting and building creation. Yes, MULES are as powerful as we think. A 1hatch1queen Z can produce up to 7 drones per 40 seconds. A 1 CC terran can produce up to 2.35 scv's in 40 seconds. All Z has to do to beat T scv production is spend ~40% of their larva on drones. You also neglect the fact that Z will likely be up one base. So yes, the worker production rate is significantly larger for Z. With P the calculation is a little more in depth, but if you spend the majority of chrono on your nexuses you get nearly double the worker production rate. Yes, mules are good, but they are by no means better than chrono or spawn larva.
So wait... Getting an expansion increases production Capacity? Really? Only for Zerg right?
*facepalm*
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One thing you guys are forgetting is that SCVs are needed to build buildings for Terran. I don't know if that makes a huge difference, but I just want to know how big of an impact it is.
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I feel like mule deserves a cool down of at least 40 seconds. Spawn larvae has a cool down so why shouldn't mule? You can stack resources the same way you can stack larvae. Think of stacking spawn larvae as a cushion for the restraints of the ability (resources and apm restraints). By nature the only restraint to mule is an APM restraint so it really doesn't need this cushion to begin with.
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On September 17 2010 02:52 Wr3k wrote:
A 1hatch1queen Z can produce up to 7 drones per 40 seconds.
A 1 CC terran can produce up to 2.35 scv's in 40 seconds.
All Z has to do to beat T scv production is spend ~40% of their larva on drones. You also neglect the fact that Z will likely be up one base. So yes, the worker production rate is significantly larger for Z.
With P the calculation is a little more in depth, but if you spend the majority of chrono on your nexuses you get nearly double the worker production rate.
Yes, mules are good, but they are by no means better than chrono or spawn larva.
I sincerely doubt you have ever played zerg, because the entire game is knowing when you can drone and when you can't
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Here is another major flaw Blizzard didnt see it would come one day.
Nexus only having 1 ability (Chrono Boost).
In my opinion, Chrono boosts are fine the way it is.
It determines Protoss' strategy and the path they want to take.
They can decide to pump out probes or chrono boost multiple gateways to apply early pressure.
By adding cooldown, it makes Starcraft 2 less tectic than it is already...
Just give Nexus an additional ability with a cooldown which is significant compare to Chronoboost.
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If you made mules cost supply, it could help make calldown supply more interesting when used in conjunction with it.
Ive often thought that mules should be nerfed and calldown supply buffed. Perhaps it actually lets your supply depots have more health +150% health and 100% supply, so you can choose to use them at walls for some extra beefiness. Maybe make them lose armored attribute?
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It's not "making an opponent waste a scan," it's them choosing tactical information over resources. As far as OC and Nexus ability changes, I would love scan to not detect, or a Nexus ability that only detects (like scan, but only detects no vision).
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On September 16 2010 17:22 Demand2k wrote:
If Morrow didn't have enough energy for that many mules, he probably wouldn't have lost the battle as he'd have more units prior to the battle. Anyone can throw down six mules at once after they've neglected them for ages.
Not true, that's assuming that Morrow had spare production buildings idle.
Yes it's the fact that any1 can throw down six mules at once after they're neglected that I have a gripe with. You can't go around missing inject larva and just inject 6 times.
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Nerfing a core economy mechanic like the MULE would be the dumbest thing blizzard could do at this point in the game. Anyone who do not realize just how huge the effects are even from slight changes to economy mechanics should get off balance discussions right now.
From a design point of view it would be completely pointless to nerf the mule because the effects would be so wide and across the entire length of the game that it is nearly impossible to analyze it correctly.
But anyway, its really entertaining to see how zerg having issues with terran early game can cause this mass hysteria where everyone is seeing the devil around the corner. Suddently every single terran unit/building is OP. I just await the threads on how supply depots are imba now.
There are unfortunately way too many wanna-be game designers on these forums who sadly do not understand how the game works even at the most superficial level.
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On September 17 2010 10:59 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 10:41 TheTeamLiquidTiger wrote:
every race has a special ability, chrono boost, mule, and extra larvae. i think mule is hte most economic, but the other two are equally useful the issue is that if zerg miss an inject, too bad. need an army? oh sorry u forgot to inject, gg. terran: zomg i haven't used any mules from my 2 bases in like 3 minutes! *drops 8*
Pro players shouldn't have huge macro problems like that, and the game shouldn't be balanced around casual players, so I fail to see the 'issue'.
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The MULE was a really stupid idea from the outset. It has none of the finesse and element of choice of chrono boosting, all the mindlessness of larvae injecting, and double the strength of both.
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EPT
