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The Power of the Mule. - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9107 Posts
September 17 2010 05:30 GMT
#261
On September 16 2010 17:27 LittleeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2010 17:22 Demand2k wrote:
If Morrow didn't have enough energy for that many mules, he probably wouldn't have lost the battle as he'd have more units prior to the battle. Anyone can throw down six mules at once after they've neglected them for ages.


You can also forget to Chrono boost or inject larva during/right before a fight, but that will hurt you in the long run, which forgetting about mules wont.


yea it will... getting money sooner is always going to be better.
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
September 17 2010 05:33 GMT
#262
On September 17 2010 14:25 gm.tOSS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 14:03 me_viet wrote:
On September 17 2010 13:49 VanGarde wrote:
Nerfing a core economy mechanic like the MULE would be the dumbest thing blizzard could do at this point in the game. Anyone who do not realize just how huge the effects are even from slight changes to economy mechanics should get off balance discussions right now.

From a design point of view it would be completely pointless to nerf the mule because the effects would be so wide and across the entire length of the game that it is nearly impossible to analyze it correctly.

But anyway, its really entertaining to see how zerg having issues with terran early game can cause this mass hysteria where everyone is seeing the devil around the corner. Suddently every single terran unit/building is OP. I just await the threads on how supply depots are imba now.

There are unfortunately way too many wanna-be game designers on these forums who sadly do not understand how the game works even at the most superficial level.



Supply Depots ARE imba =P

How is it fair that you can wall-off completely and still have the option of moving out with all possible units?

Toss can't wall-off completely. If they wall-off with gate + core or 2gate, it means they can't go immortals and have to research blink for all stalkers in-base to get out, or existing stalkers to get in to defend against drops.

Just stfu, ppls like you who just comes in here and is condescending to all other posters in a discussion forum thinking they're top shit gets me on edge. What are your credentials? ARE YOU a blizzard game designer? ARE you even a game designer at all? DO you even play the game? Are you even out of puberty yet?

Be constructive in a forum. Provide evidence. "blah blah blah you're all wanna-be game designers and have no clue" is just downright bm. For all we know, 10yrs from now we can look back and say "wow, mules were imba back then, how on earth did any1 beat Terran?"

You do realize that you can wall off with every Terran building that can fly jsut as easily and just like back in broodwar?


Lol but any building that's lifted-off can't produce. So if you'd make a rax (cheapest lift-able building) your still down 150 if that's it's sole purpose. also, landing buildings in time is inherently twice as slow as unburrowing supplies (2 clicks vs 1 click). lol I should edit and say that example was just for 'lols'. It was sort of a post to show him how to present an argument. The one I quoted just flamed every1 in the thread prettymuch.
STS17
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1817 Posts
September 17 2010 05:41 GMT
#263
Hmm...new Terran strat, never build workers, just get 2-3 OCs per base and MULE away? Saves food for army too.
Platinum Level Terran - Take my advice from that perspective
kidcrash
Profile Joined September 2009
United States623 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-17 05:45:33
September 17 2010 05:43 GMT
#264
On September 17 2010 14:06 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 13:59 kidcrash wrote:
On September 17 2010 13:49 VanGarde wrote:
Nerfing a core economy mechanic like the MULE would be the dumbest thing blizzard could do at this point in the game. Anyone who do not realize just how huge the effects are even from slight changes to economy mechanics should get off balance discussions right now.

From a design point of view it would be completely pointless to nerf the mule because the effects would be so wide and across the entire length of the game that it is nearly impossible to analyze it correctly.

But anyway, its really entertaining to see how zerg having issues with terran early game can cause this mass hysteria where everyone is seeing the devil around the corner. Suddently every single terran unit/building is OP. I just await the threads on how supply depots are imba now.

There are unfortunately way too many wanna-be game designers on these forums who sadly do not understand how the game works even at the most superficial level.


The great thing about implementing a cool down on the mule call down ability is, you never have worry about this argument. Just remember to call down your mules on time and everything is returned to status quo. The player still has 100% control over any short-comings. So no, the effects would not be wide-spread, it would simply place more onus on the player to perform instead of providing them with a huge cushion huge for their mistakes.

That argument is incorrect and based on either faulty logic or understanding of the race. You are just assuming that you always want to call down a mule on 50 energy like a robot. Which is not at all always the case. There are plenty of situations, especially in TvT where you want to save up energy for scans, then if you realize that you do not need the scans you call down two mules.

A cooldown just dumbs down the gameplay.


Making the decisions and planning more difficult is not dumbing down the game-play, it's creating more strategical depth. Every 50 seconds the terran player would be forced to think about if they need a scan at the very moment, or if they are going to need any scans in the near future. The tension forces the player to be a better decision maker and a better planner than "LOL I got mules or scans for days, no decision making or planning until the issue is forced".


bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
September 17 2010 06:05 GMT
#265
On September 17 2010 14:41 STS17 wrote:
Hmm...new Terran strat, never build workers, just get 2-3 OCs per base and MULE away? Saves food for army too.


Remember that you have to pull scvs from mining to build production buildings. Mules help offset the minerals lost when a scv is building.
Bleedorang3
Profile Joined September 2010
20 Posts
September 17 2010 06:19 GMT
#266
On September 17 2010 15:05 bmn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 14:41 STS17 wrote:
Hmm...new Terran strat, never build workers, just get 2-3 OCs per base and MULE away? Saves food for army too.


Remember that you have to pull scvs from mining to build production buildings. Mules help offset the minerals lost when a scv is building.


None of that changes if you give it a cooldown.
kojinshugi
Profile Joined August 2010
Estonia2559 Posts
September 17 2010 06:54 GMT
#267
On September 17 2010 14:03 me_viet wrote:
Supply Depots ARE imba =P

How is it fair that you can wall-off completely and still have the option of moving out with all possible units?

Toss can't wall-off completely. If they wall-off with gate + core or 2gate, it means they can't go immortals and have to research blink for all stalkers in-base to get out, or existing stalkers to get in to defend against drops.


Different races are different.

For fuck's sake, Starcraft is a game of ASYMMETRY.

Zerg morph workers into buildings. Terran workers stand there and build. Toss workers just start the warp in and go on their merry way.

Toss can wall off completely just fine, because warp gates let them spawn units anywhere on the map with pylon power. Not that you need to wall off completely in the first place, since you can use very strong melee units (something that Terran doesn't have) to block any early ling or zealot pressure in the gaps. Mid-game, you have force fields.

Zerg can't wall off at all because all their units are spawned at their town hall. In turn, zerg gets Creep, which gives them a really massive home ground advantage.

Races also differ in their production methods. Zerg are highly reactionary and can produce 20 mutalisks just as easily as 20 roaches, all from the same larvae. Protoss mech and air have build times but their varied infantry and casters are all spawned instantly anywhere on the map via warp gates, in whatever combination required. Terran are the least reactionary, due to every one of their units having a build time.

This is why they are also the most defensive and turtle-oriented, and why zerg are least defensive - zerg can reinforce entire armies in one production cycle while terran needs to spend multiple production cycles to pump out the same number of units. Protoss is somewhere in between, since they can always warp in units to defend or reinforce.

For vision and mobility, zerg are by far ahead of every other race by design. Their food buildings are flying units that can be spread around the map for vision. Creep removes fog of war at zero mineral cost (only queen energy) and greatly boosts unit speed. When zerg has map control, they don't use fortified positions but rather control territory with the thread of multi-pronged, fast reactions to anyone entering. Protoss are again a middle ground, in that they can use relatively small, mobile forces to control territory and reinforce them through pylons placed in key locations. Protoss vision is nearly a map hack until the enemy has detection. Terran has by far the poorest vision of the map, and map control is achieved by entrenched positions and chokepoints. Which is why they're good at turtling.

This is what makes the game good. This is why Starcraft was a revolutionary RTS. If you're pining for an RTS where all races can do the same crap, only with different graphics, then please delete your SC2 folder now.
whatsgrackalackin420
Kaza
Profile Joined April 2010
United States31 Posts
September 17 2010 07:13 GMT
#268
Couldnt you just reduce the amount of minerals a mule gathers? Do they really need to gather 30 per?
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
September 17 2010 07:20 GMT
#269
Need's a gigantic nerf.

However, pic is misleading. The mineral intake rate is inflated for a period of time. It isn't like that 100% of the time. It's better to take a game long average. If you look at resource collection rate graphs vs terrans you notice they're graphs are far mar jagged. Even then the best quality of mules isn't their faster mining rate, but the fact that you can still use them 100% efficiently regardless of how many workers on a mineral patch which tips the scales in their favor when both armies are close to full saturation. It is also in some ways to make up for the fact that terrans lose mining time on workers having to build stuff.

Still needs a nerf.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
AzureD
Profile Joined September 2010
United States320 Posts
September 17 2010 07:24 GMT
#270
The spamming MULE on gold expansion is broken. Yes you pay a little risk by not using them before hand but the enormous reward is well worth it.

Basically little risk massive reward. It is simply too powerful the way it currently is. Every OC basically becomes a partial gold expo once you control one because they all concentrate their MULE on the gold expo.

Also Terrans are able to mine more per saturated base than other races. Yes other races can temporarily have a bigger economy faster if they chrono boost or mass drone but they will saturate their bases and now their fast probe production has to stop. A Terran will soon reach full saturation in a few minutes right behind the Zerg or Protoss and then over saturate beyond what they are capable of. It does not take a lot of time to saturate a base either.

The MULE macro mechanic is also very forgiving on on being bad with your call downs. The Protos chrono boost being somewhat forgiving and the Zerg spawn larvae being very unforgiving for missing one. As it takes a long time to correct such a mistake.
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
September 17 2010 07:55 GMT
#271
On September 17 2010 15:19 Bleedorang3 wrote:


None of that changes if you give it a cooldown.


you give DTs/observers/roaches a free pass into your base. that changes big time.

The bandwagon of whiners and haters here became so ridiculous. Are some people even thinking before posting?
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
DTrain
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia64 Posts
September 17 2010 08:00 GMT
#272
On September 17 2010 16:55 c0rn1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 15:19 Bleedorang3 wrote:


None of that changes if you give it a cooldown.


you give DTs/observers/roaches a free pass into your base. that changes big time.



How does having a cooldown on the Mule ability let DT/observers/roaches in?
Didn't say anything about a cooldown on scans.
RuFF_SC2
Profile Joined February 2010
United States203 Posts
September 17 2010 08:05 GMT
#273
If you nerf the mule you need to nerf the chrono boost and inject larva. These are the core abilities of each race. So far from blizzards response Chrono Boost is the most powerful at the moment. You have to understand that Terran can not shoot out workers as fast as protoss and zerg. So Terran is heavily prone to worker harasse unlike a protoss or zerg when you kill 20 workers and out of no where they have 20 again. The mule is to give Terran an edge on how fast the other races can produce workers.
Eat My Metal Foot Mech-Head
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
September 17 2010 08:25 GMT
#274
On September 17 2010 17:00 DTrain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 16:55 c0rn1 wrote:

you give DTs/observers/roaches a free pass into your base. that changes big time.



How does having a cooldown on the Mule ability let DT/observers/roaches in?
Didn't say anything about a cooldown on scans.


THINK please. because I had to use the mule as soon as it is ready so I would not waste any mining time. I had to keep my energy low and as many ppl suggested are not allowed to miss a mule dropdown or I'd be behind. And when my energy is low I cannot scan. to your suggestion I cannot wait a little with my mule dropdown because it might bring me far behind if I have the feeling that DT might be coming.

MINING severals mules at once means that I missed out on minerals earlier.
what is the damn problem with this?
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
PhoenixM1
Profile Joined January 2010
United States178 Posts
September 17 2010 08:35 GMT
#275
On September 17 2010 02:26 Bleedorang3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 02:22 avilo wrote:
i do not understand the thread. there are plenty of games where protoss could have been behind in workers and they chrono boost the hell out of the nexuses and suddenly they are back even or ahead in worker count...just another terran hate thread it seems


Nobody said nothing needed to be changed about Chronoboost either. The same thing applies here. The ability to 'forget to macro' and then come back to a full energy Nexus and be able to dump all the energy instantly IS NOT BALANCED. This is the same thing, rewarding bad macro. There needs to be a cooldown on Chronoboost also.



So you don't need them to be nerfed. . .you want zerg buffed. Lol.
=/
stanma
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2 Posts
September 17 2010 08:50 GMT
#276
On September 16 2010 18:02 Terranist wrote:
another terran OP thread? of all the things people tend to complain about, mule is really not that much of a gamebreaker. zerg can cover half the map in creep for christ sake.


Mules could let T win even SCVs have been raped out. We don't even have to prove that.

Well, you wise T player plz tell those poor Z/P how could win you guys with flying all over the overlord?

I'd rather like to exchange the "FAST & GOOD" overlord scouting ability with your tons of Mules. How about that?


Solution:
1. It should have supply.
2. CD - if you don't agree. <How about let Queen inject all its energy at onetime if a Z player forgot to do that, and broods bunch of forces? I guess it would be great...like you throw mass mules into a gold mine base..>
limbokid
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany143 Posts
September 17 2010 08:51 GMT
#277
On September 17 2010 17:25 c0rn1 wrote:

THINK please. because I had to use the mule as soon as it is ready so I would not waste any mining time. I had to keep my energy low and as many ppl suggested are not allowed to miss a mule dropdown or I'd be behind. And when my energy is low I cannot scan. to your suggestion I cannot wait a little with my mule dropdown because it might bring me far behind if I have the feeling that DT might be coming.

MINING severals mules at once means that I missed out on minerals earlier.
what is the damn problem with this?


Good players dont miss out mules and know dts and roach burro timings to save up some energry. A mule-cooldown would not change a lot on high level. Terrans just need to be a little bit more focused on their macro.
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-17 08:54:09
September 17 2010 08:53 GMT
#278
wicked browser buffer owns me
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
SugarBear
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States842 Posts
September 17 2010 09:03 GMT
#279
Yes, mules are definitely OP in the situation where you destroyed your enemies SCVs and he can just call down 10 saved up mules to get back into the game. Any other race that loses a significant amount of workers is going to lose, unless there is a significant army count discrepancy. I don't think mules need a cooldown, I think they need a limit depending on your population count (1 mule call down per 30 population size or something) or based on your scv count (1 mule always available, then for every 10 scvs you have you can call down an additional mule concurrently).

The bust of 2/3k minerals for 90 seconds is not OP imo because it's impossible to make use of that kind of temporary mineral influx efficiently. If terrans forget to or don't call down mules, those should be considered wasted resources, even though they can just call down multiple mules.
Staff vVv Gaming | "So what did you do today?" "Oh not much, mined some minerals, harvested some gas, spawned some zergs, the usual"
aznhockeyboy16
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States558 Posts
September 17 2010 09:11 GMT
#280
you know that there is also the fact that morrow had no scvs on gas at that point right? that will shift the thing by about 12 workers, plus the fact that morrow probably had more than 2 mules going on at that moment, but yeah... mules are awesome.
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