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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:27 LittleeD wrote: You can also forget to Chrono boost or inject larva during/right before a fight, but that will hurt you in the long run, which forgetting about mules wont. yea it will... getting money sooner is always going to be better. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On September 17 2010 14:25 gm.tOSS wrote: You do realize that you can wall off with every Terran building that can fly jsut as easily and just like back in broodwar? Lol but any building that's lifted-off can't produce. So if you'd make a rax (cheapest lift-able building) your still down 150 if that's it's sole purpose. also, landing buildings in time is inherently twice as slow as unburrowing supplies (2 clicks vs 1 click). lol I should edit and say that example was just for 'lols'. It was sort of a post to show him how to present an argument. The one I quoted just flamed every1 in the thread prettymuch. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On September 17 2010 14:06 VanGarde wrote: That argument is incorrect and based on either faulty logic or understanding of the race. You are just assuming that you always want to call down a mule on 50 energy like a robot. Which is not at all always the case. There are plenty of situations, especially in TvT where you want to save up energy for scans, then if you realize that you do not need the scans you call down two mules. A cooldown just dumbs down the gameplay. Making the decisions and planning more difficult is not dumbing down the game-play, it's creating more strategical depth. Every 50 seconds the terran player would be forced to think about if they need a scan at the very moment, or if they are going to need any scans in the near future. The tension forces the player to be a better decision maker and a better planner than "LOL I got mules or scans for days, no decision making or planning until the issue is forced". | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On September 17 2010 14:41 STS17 wrote: Hmm...new Terran strat, never build workers, just get 2-3 OCs per base and MULE away? Saves food for army too. Remember that you have to pull scvs from mining to build production buildings. Mules help offset the minerals lost when a scv is building. | ||
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Bleedorang3
20 Posts
On September 17 2010 15:05 bmn wrote: Remember that you have to pull scvs from mining to build production buildings. Mules help offset the minerals lost when a scv is building. None of that changes if you give it a cooldown. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On September 17 2010 14:03 me_viet wrote: Supply Depots ARE imba =P How is it fair that you can wall-off completely and still have the option of moving out with all possible units? Toss can't wall-off completely. If they wall-off with gate + core or 2gate, it means they can't go immortals and have to research blink for all stalkers in-base to get out, or existing stalkers to get in to defend against drops. Different races are different. For fuck's sake, Starcraft is a game of ASYMMETRY. Zerg morph workers into buildings. Terran workers stand there and build. Toss workers just start the warp in and go on their merry way. Toss can wall off completely just fine, because warp gates let them spawn units anywhere on the map with pylon power. Not that you need to wall off completely in the first place, since you can use very strong melee units (something that Terran doesn't have) to block any early ling or zealot pressure in the gaps. Mid-game, you have force fields. Zerg can't wall off at all because all their units are spawned at their town hall. In turn, zerg gets Creep, which gives them a really massive home ground advantage. Races also differ in their production methods. Zerg are highly reactionary and can produce 20 mutalisks just as easily as 20 roaches, all from the same larvae. Protoss mech and air have build times but their varied infantry and casters are all spawned instantly anywhere on the map via warp gates, in whatever combination required. Terran are the least reactionary, due to every one of their units having a build time. This is why they are also the most defensive and turtle-oriented, and why zerg are least defensive - zerg can reinforce entire armies in one production cycle while terran needs to spend multiple production cycles to pump out the same number of units. Protoss is somewhere in between, since they can always warp in units to defend or reinforce. For vision and mobility, zerg are by far ahead of every other race by design. Their food buildings are flying units that can be spread around the map for vision. Creep removes fog of war at zero mineral cost (only queen energy) and greatly boosts unit speed. When zerg has map control, they don't use fortified positions but rather control territory with the thread of multi-pronged, fast reactions to anyone entering. Protoss are again a middle ground, in that they can use relatively small, mobile forces to control territory and reinforce them through pylons placed in key locations. Protoss vision is nearly a map hack until the enemy has detection. Terran has by far the poorest vision of the map, and map control is achieved by entrenched positions and chokepoints. Which is why they're good at turtling. This is what makes the game good. This is why Starcraft was a revolutionary RTS. If you're pining for an RTS where all races can do the same crap, only with different graphics, then please delete your SC2 folder now. | ||
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Kaza
United States31 Posts
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
However, pic is misleading. The mineral intake rate is inflated for a period of time. It isn't like that 100% of the time. It's better to take a game long average. If you look at resource collection rate graphs vs terrans you notice they're graphs are far mar jagged. Even then the best quality of mules isn't their faster mining rate, but the fact that you can still use them 100% efficiently regardless of how many workers on a mineral patch which tips the scales in their favor when both armies are close to full saturation. It is also in some ways to make up for the fact that terrans lose mining time on workers having to build stuff. Still needs a nerf. | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Basically little risk massive reward. It is simply too powerful the way it currently is. Every OC basically becomes a partial gold expo once you control one because they all concentrate their MULE on the gold expo. Also Terrans are able to mine more per saturated base than other races. Yes other races can temporarily have a bigger economy faster if they chrono boost or mass drone but they will saturate their bases and now their fast probe production has to stop. A Terran will soon reach full saturation in a few minutes right behind the Zerg or Protoss and then over saturate beyond what they are capable of. It does not take a lot of time to saturate a base either. The MULE macro mechanic is also very forgiving on on being bad with your call downs. The Protos chrono boost being somewhat forgiving and the Zerg spawn larvae being very unforgiving for missing one. As it takes a long time to correct such a mistake. | ||
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c0rn1
Germany146 Posts
On September 17 2010 15:19 Bleedorang3 wrote: None of that changes if you give it a cooldown. you give DTs/observers/roaches a free pass into your base. that changes big time. The bandwagon of whiners and haters here became so ridiculous. Are some people even thinking before posting? | ||
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DTrain
Australia64 Posts
On September 17 2010 16:55 c0rn1 wrote: you give DTs/observers/roaches a free pass into your base. that changes big time. How does having a cooldown on the Mule ability let DT/observers/roaches in? Didn't say anything about a cooldown on scans. | ||
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RuFF_SC2
United States203 Posts
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c0rn1
Germany146 Posts
On September 17 2010 17:00 DTrain wrote: How does having a cooldown on the Mule ability let DT/observers/roaches in? Didn't say anything about a cooldown on scans. THINK please. because I had to use the mule as soon as it is ready so I would not waste any mining time. I had to keep my energy low and as many ppl suggested are not allowed to miss a mule dropdown or I'd be behind. And when my energy is low I cannot scan. to your suggestion I cannot wait a little with my mule dropdown because it might bring me far behind if I have the feeling that DT might be coming. MINING severals mules at once means that I missed out on minerals earlier. what is the damn problem with this? | ||
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PhoenixM1
United States178 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:26 Bleedorang3 wrote: Nobody said nothing needed to be changed about Chronoboost either. The same thing applies here. The ability to 'forget to macro' and then come back to a full energy Nexus and be able to dump all the energy instantly IS NOT BALANCED. This is the same thing, rewarding bad macro. There needs to be a cooldown on Chronoboost also. So you don't need them to be nerfed. . .you want zerg buffed. Lol. | ||
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stanma
United States2 Posts
On September 16 2010 18:02 Terranist wrote: another terran OP thread? of all the things people tend to complain about, mule is really not that much of a gamebreaker. zerg can cover half the map in creep for christ sake. Mules could let T win even SCVs have been raped out. We don't even have to prove that. Well, you wise T player plz tell those poor Z/P how could win you guys with flying all over the overlord? I'd rather like to exchange the "FAST & GOOD" overlord scouting ability with your tons of Mules. How about that? Solution: 1. It should have supply. 2. CD - if you don't agree. <How about let Queen inject all its energy at onetime if a Z player forgot to do that, and broods bunch of forces? I guess it would be great...like you throw mass mules into a gold mine base..> | ||
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limbokid
Germany143 Posts
On September 17 2010 17:25 c0rn1 wrote: THINK please. because I had to use the mule as soon as it is ready so I would not waste any mining time. I had to keep my energy low and as many ppl suggested are not allowed to miss a mule dropdown or I'd be behind. And when my energy is low I cannot scan. to your suggestion I cannot wait a little with my mule dropdown because it might bring me far behind if I have the feeling that DT might be coming. MINING severals mules at once means that I missed out on minerals earlier. what is the damn problem with this? Good players dont miss out mules and know dts and roach burro timings to save up some energry. A mule-cooldown would not change a lot on high level. Terrans just need to be a little bit more focused on their macro. | ||
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c0rn1
Germany146 Posts
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
The bust of 2/3k minerals for 90 seconds is not OP imo because it's impossible to make use of that kind of temporary mineral influx efficiently. If terrans forget to or don't call down mules, those should be considered wasted resources, even though they can just call down multiple mules. | ||
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aznhockeyboy16
United States558 Posts
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