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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
On September 17 2010 23:02 ltortoise wrote: Awww, poor baby. I'm so sorry 6 pool isn't an auto win for you. I don't mind taking a loss because my opponent defended my all-in strat well, but that's my problem here he failed to stop me but still won the game. I don't get any wins when I don't stop a bunker rush or cannon rush. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 17 2010 23:19 Karkadinn wrote: Coming from a religious background myself, I find it hilarious that you accuse those who disagree of you with being blinded by faith, when you are yourself practicing the concept of infallibility on Blizzard for no apparent reason. If you know anything about the history of the company, you know balance isn't their strong point. Starcraft 1's legacy is a combination of coming in at the right time with the right circumstances, getting lots of support from the community, and a bit of luck. There was a review posted very recently that has them explicitly stating how terrified they are to work on SC2 because they know it's next to impossible for them to create the same miracle twice. If the math is, theoretically speaking, too complicated for the community to figure out, do you think Blizzard has some magical super computers or mad scientists who can crunch numbers better? If they're that capable with numbers, why are there balance problems at all? While I agree with the first part, I don't with the second. Blizzard don't need anything magical. They have data on every game ever played on bnet. They don't need mad scientist. Just some math/stats men. They can't crunch numbers better, they just CAN crunch number while we can't. And there are balance problems because of complexity. It's like "l'effet papillon" (I don't know the english word, but it's like : the air a butterfly is displacing while flying in Paris can become a storm in Tokyo) : just a little change in something can destroy an entire part of the gameplay on a seemingly irrelevant part of the game. That's why balancing is hard. That why topics like the one we're posting on are totally wrong. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
On September 17 2010 23:30 DARKHYDRA wrote: I don't mind taking a loss because my opponent defended my all-in strat well, but that's my problem here he failed to stop me but still won the game. I don't get any wins when I don't stop a bunker rush or cannon rush. Yea that's gotta be a broken game, rather than a bad strategy. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much unsupported whining and bitching on these forums. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Chronoboost, queen and mule work out fairly evenly in terms of economic boost. The only issue I have with mules is that they can be put on gold minerals for more effectiveness, imo they should bring in 240-270 minerals regardless of what kind of patch they are used on. | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On September 17 2010 23:30 DARKHYDRA wrote: I don't mind taking a loss because my opponent defended my all-in strat well, but that's my problem here he failed to stop me but still won the game. I don't get any wins when I don't stop a bunker rush or cannon rush. Man... if you killed all his stuff and workers except for the OC, and he landed it behind rocks, and you still lost, then that one is all on you... The economic advantage you should have had even with a 6 pool is ridiculous. I assume that instead of taking the map and macroing up you kept trying to all-in that base behind the rocks which is why you lost. | ||
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Matteus
United Kingdom11 Posts
also scvs generally last longer than the mules | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
Also regardless of how you swing it, chronoboost is not free money, nor is inject larva. Mule should probably just have a 10 second cooldown, as some of the most annoying things to see are late game a terran lifts an OC to somewhere immediately drops 8-10 mules and wins the game shortly after. I guess you could argue that's about as powerful as stocking up larva spawns when zerg's at 200/200. But in that sense chronoboost is weak as hell, since stocking it up doesn't really help like mule/larva. Other than that i don't really feel like they're broken. | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
Vangarde: he also saved his barracks so he quickly got marines to shoot from behind the rocks, if u read my first post its in there. It also mentions that after he did this I sent my 3 remaining workers back to mine becuased I used them in the attack aswell. Taking down rocks with zerglings takes forever so I don't think that would've worked even if he didn't save his barracks. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 18 2010 00:24 DuneBug wrote: Also regardless of how you swing it, chronoboost is not free money, nor is inject larva. MULE isn't either. It provides the same mining rate as 3 SCVs, and the Orbital Command costs 150 minerals. You pay exactly for the mining rate that you get. On September 18 2010 00:24 DuneBug wrote: Mule should probably just have a 10 second cooldown, as some of the most annoying things to see are late game a terran lifts an OC to somewhere immediately drops 8-10 mules and wins the game shortly after. I guess you could argue that's about as powerful as stocking up larva spawns when zerg's at 200/200. But in that sense chronoboost is weak as hell, since stocking it up doesn't really help like mule/larva. Other than that i don't really feel like they're broken. I agree with this. The problem with MULE isn't that it's too strong, but that it's forgiving--if you never miss a Spawn Larva, Spawn Larva is actually stronger than MULE--it's just that even players at Idra's level miss Spawn Larva cycles, and while MULE doesn't diminish in value if you miss them, the value of Spawn Larva rapidly diminishes over missed cycles. Similarly with Chrono Boost--if you Chrono the correct things, it's more powerful than MULE--it's just that a lot of the time, a Protoss is going to end up in a situation where they just spam a bunch of them on warpgates because they missed cycles, and that severely diminishes its value. | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
Even if the Terran didn't have an OC he could have loaded up 5 workers and been ahead of you. Stop crying that you tried to 6 pool and lost. | ||
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Toke
United States30 Posts
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curtis
Iran21 Posts
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x7i
United Kingdom122 Posts
On September 18 2010 00:33 TheYango wrote: MULE isn't either. It provides the same mining rate as 3 SCVs, and the Orbital Command costs 150 minerals. You pay exactly for the mining rate that you get. I agree with this. The problem with MULE isn't that it's too strong, but that it's forgiving--if you never miss a Spawn Larva, Spawn Larva is actually stronger than MULE--it's just that even players at Idra's level miss Spawn Larva cycles, and while MULE doesn't diminish in value if you miss them, the value of Spawn Larva rapidly diminishes over missed cycles. Similarly with Chrono Boost--if you Chrono the correct things, it's more powerful than MULE--it's just that a lot of the time, a Protoss is going to end up in a situation where they just spam a bunch of them on warpgates because they missed cycles, and that severely diminishes its value. shenanigans, you tarrans keep attempting direct everybody attention away from the real problem to the 'mules being forgiving' which is such a minor issue in comparison mule gathers 270min over ~63 seconds, normal worker with optimal saturation gathers 42min over 60 seconds, so mule is equal to 6 workers at optimal saturation, normal worker pays itself in 71 seconds (with optimal saturation, or 120sec if worker count >16), mule pays oc in about 35 seconds.. so in reality mule is 6 workers that take no supply and always working at optimal saturation, oh, they also pay for themselves in half the time ONE normal worker would returned the investment in ideal circumstances let me rephrase again, its 6 magical workers that cost no supply that work on 3 magical mineral patches (tapping into one normal patch) then theres mules on gold, and that you can cast them in bulk, and 300 min from sockfolded mule (making in nearly 7 magical workers), but those are just insults to injury | ||
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in7e.sCream
Germany48 Posts
also makes ugly and weird comebacks possible that shouldnt happen | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:23 klauz619 wrote: They don't magically pop up minerals and just make you mine out faster, it's just 300 minerals sped up to you. Making additional workers doesn't magically pop up minerals and just makes you mine out faster, but making additional workers is good, yes? | ||
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x7i
United Kingdom122 Posts
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koppik
United States676 Posts
You'd kind of always prefer 3 scvs to muling from one OC, and the OC costs 150, except in the specific case where you're fully saturated and have no plans on expanding any time soon. In terms of macromechanics, larva inject is way, way better (to the point that many zergs view "macro" as injecting larva) then chronoboost, which is better than mules. Terran has scans and supply drop, which kind of even things out on that front. If you ever watch a top replay with the income rate on, generally mules just make up the economic gap that Protoss and Zerg have over the Terran. | ||
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in7e.sCream
Germany48 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + lol i still dont get why this cant have a CD like injecting i mean.. good players or pros will not suffer from it if they keep their macro going, while it will punish noobs and make the gap between good and worse players bigger, what isnt wrong imo. Good Terrans will saving Energy for certain Timings where they know that they HAVE TO scan. Building 2 Turrets or a Raven for cloaked unit detection isnt that big of an issue, was possible to build vessels in bw, and its much easier to tech up for a raven in s2 | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
On September 18 2010 00:33 Shifft wrote: .... Even if the Terran didn't have an OC he could have loaded up 5 workers and been ahead of you. Stop crying that you tried to 6 pool and lost. Because that isn't stupid at all right? I'm not saying I should auto win every time I 6pool, I'm also not saying I was a better player than the terran player. What I am saying is that if this was broodwar he would've lost because he can't load workers and fly off and he can't mule either... so yeah go ahead and tell me this isn't BW again like I don't know. | ||
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