EPTThe Power of the Mule. - Page 17
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x7i
United Kingdom122 Posts
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
The problem with the mule isn't the mule itself, the problem is the lack of a cooldown. Terran players are the least effected by a miss/lack of macro. Once a cooldown is implemented, this discussion should end, unless another problem arises. | ||
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in7e.sCream
Germany48 Posts
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
In TvT I get 1 mule first call down and then save the rest for scans. TvP I do the same, except my first two casts are mules and the rest are for scanning to kill those pesky obs, or for DTs. Sometimes if I need a stupidly fast mineral boost I'll lift off the high, drop 8 mules and then leave ^.^ | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
On September 18 2010 02:00 x7i wrote: The 42 mineral per minute number is in game-time. So, the low is 240/42*(60/90) = 3.8 worker, or 4.28 worker if the final trip is made (for 270). 270 only occurs at close patches. At medium patches, the mule dies with its cargo, making you lose 30 minerals.liquipedia is incorrect on this one, mule lives ~63 game seconds and collects 270 (from close/medium patch) and nearly completes additional trip, so safely can be counted as 270min/minute, 270/42 = 6.4 optimal worker Basically, the only time you'd want to be muling constantly rather than have three SCVs is when you're saturated and do not intend to take another base soon. Well, the first mule has a bigger impact. It takes less time to make an OC then it does to produce three SCVs, so you'll definitely want to make an OC ASAP (economically) to drop the first mule. | ||
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Trizz
Netherlands1318 Posts
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Pking
Sweden142 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Zerg can do something similar, they can save larvae for rapid reproduction and fast Techswitches. That the spawn larvae mechanic is "unforgiving" is a problem with Zerg not Terran. | ||
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x7i
United Kingdom122 Posts
On September 18 2010 02:17 koppik wrote: The 42 mineral per minute number is in game-time. So, the low is 240/42*(60/90) = 3.8 worker, or 4.28 worker if the final trip is made (for 270). 270 only occurs at close patches. At medium patches, the mule dies with its cargo, making you lose 30 minerals. Basically, the only time you'd want to be muling constantly rather than have three SCVs is when you're saturated and do not intend to take another base soon. Well, the first mule has a bigger impact. It takes less time to make an OC then it does to produce three SCVs, so you'll definitely want to make an OC ASAP (economically) to drop the first mule. i stand corrected on game time minute for 42mineral regarding your apparent definition of medium distance, on most(all?) maps you have 5/6 short distance patches then, its almost irrelevant, except it means mule being 4.5 of optimal saturation (not enough attention here) worker in 90% cases with corrected calculations, income from 16 scv + 1 mule is equal to fully saturated, mule-free base, and well, you dont have magically mined 3 extra patches but only 2 instead, indeed, now i certainly see its indeed a huge disadvantage, those 2 extra patches with free saturation from mule are barely comparable to 1/4 of expansion income and no, only time you wouldnt want to mule constantly is if you have no mule-free patches | ||
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kawazu
United States111 Posts
Both protoss and zerg have faster worker production than terran. Terran needs mules in order to keep up economically in the beginning. Mules are good, but OP? I don't really think so They only give minerals and proper usage isn't entirely straight forward. The Orbital Command might be OP because it has 3 very useful abilities. The Planetary Fortress is kind of terrible in comparison. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On September 17 2010 23:22 Karkadinn wrote: Balancewise, I would love to hear a logical explanation for why Terran building lift off is even in the game, other than 'Because the first game had it.' The first game had Dark Swarm too but you don't see that coming back. Oh wait, they just renamed it Point Defense Drone, my mistake. Not only can they use it to swap add-ons, but design-wise, Terran was always intended to have the most versatility when it comes to building placement. | ||
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Karkadinn
United States132 Posts
On September 18 2010 04:38 kawazu wrote: Mules are actually more important in the early game, unlike what OP said. Both protoss and zerg have faster worker production than terran. Terran needs mules in order to keep up economically in the beginning. Mules are good, but OP? I don't really think so They only give minerals and proper usage isn't entirely straight forward. The Orbital Command might be OP because it has 3 very useful abilities. The Planetary Fortress is kind of terrible in comparison. And yet, what the Terran call 'terrible' is still better than what the other two factions have access to.... | ||
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Karkadinn
United States132 Posts
On September 18 2010 04:46 TedJustice wrote: Not only can they use it to swap add-ons, but design-wise, Terran was always intended to have the most versatility when it comes to building placement. Why? What weakness is that supposed to make up for that the other factions theoretically don't suffer from? | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On September 18 2010 05:02 Karkadinn wrote: Why? What weakness is that supposed to make up for that the other factions theoretically don't suffer from? The game is designed to have unique and interesting races first, and balanced ones second. If they want an ability to be in the game, it's going to be in the game, and they're going to balance it so it fits. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On September 18 2010 02:11 EliteAzn wrote: Can we please make this clear? The problem with the mule isn't the mule itself, the problem is the lack of a cooldown. Terran players are the least effected by a miss/lack of macro. Once a cooldown is implemented, this discussion should end, unless another problem arises. the funny thing is - I suggested this AGES ago http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=145523 I didn't understand why this was moved, but didn't wanna risk a temp-ban for complaining.... but yeah: there needs to be some mechanism to "punish" a player for not using mules; also the comparison to chrono-boost isn't really good; mules are at their best in late midgame when it comes to mining gold; chrono-boost becomes really weak after some time, because later on the only thing worth boosting are techs and units like colossi | ||
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Karkadinn
United States132 Posts
On September 18 2010 05:07 TedJustice wrote: The game is designed to have unique and interesting races first, and balanced ones second. If they want an ability to be in the game, it's going to be in the game, and they're going to balance it so it fits. And isn't it nice how Terran's 'interesting' mechanics turn out to be advantages while Zerg's 'interesting' mechanics are limitations, eh? | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Once you start to Chronoboost beyond this is when you truly come out ahead of constant MULE drop. Using Chrono boost lets you build the first Probe in 11.22 seconds and the second in 14.11 seconds or so. Effectively knocking out nearly 9 seconds of building time per 2 Probes using 1 Chrono boost. Therefore for every 2 Chronoboosts used you get an extra 1 Probe over your enemy. Using it 4 times puts you 2 probes ahead and so on. A Protoss must use chronoboost on his Nexus 6 times to break even with that MULE. A constant single MULE basically costs 150 minerals with a build time of 35. Getting an Orbital Command always makes you more money. It is much better than simply constantly getting SCV that last forever. | ||
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
also i dont think mules too imba because huk prob has like 12 of his harvesters on gas.. take that into account... Plus there are prob like 6 mules out lol | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On September 18 2010 05:14 AzureD wrote: I think it should also be noted that 1 MULE = about 6 Chronoboosts on Nexus. Once you start to Chronoboost beyond this is when you truly come out ahead of constant MULE drop. Using Chrono boost lets you build the first Probe in 11.22 seconds and the second in 14.11 seconds or so. Effectively knocking out nearly 9 seconds of building time per 2 Probes using 1 Chrono boost. Therefore for every 2 Chronoboosts used you get an extra 1 Probe over your enemy. Using it 4 times puts you 2 probes ahead and so on. A Protoss must use chronoboost on his Nexus 6 times to break even with that MULE. A constant single MULE basically costs 150 minerals with a build time of 35. Getting an Orbital Command always makes you more money. It is much better than simply constantly getting SCV that last forever. I might have misunderstood you, but the correct way of putting it should be 1 Orbital command = about 6 chrono boosts, assuming the orbital command only does mules for the entirety of the game. That's not even considering the fact that probes have no downtime while building buildings. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:08 Frack wrote: It would be interesting if the mule had a cooldown, say 30secs to a minute, but then chrono boost doesnt have a cool down and larva stacks. But i wouldnt be opposed to a trial period of a cooldown to see how it works. Larva does stack, but you get less of it total if you forget about it for 2 minutes. I'd say that MULEs should have a 20 second cooldown. You can still call multiple ones, but it wouldn't allow Terrans to just forget about spending OC energy for 2 minutes with no downside. Nexuses (nexi?) sort of work this way already... if you wanted to chrono out a colossus but forgot to put 2 on the robo fac, you can't go back in time or stack two chronos to make up for lost time. If progamers like IdrA can almost flawlessly inject larvae then I don't see the cooldown affecting good Terran players. MULEs are too easy to use at full efficiency -- there's no difference in MULE usage between players with mediocre multitasking and amazing multitasking like players of the caliber of MorroW. | ||
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