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Wow people are still discussing this as a possible OP thing ?
MULE, like chrono and inject, is a basic of each race. So it has to be the very thing that blizzard had carefuly studied, computed, "mathed" so it is perfectly balanced. Bcause it has to be. And it is, get over it.
No, a replay where a biased player wait the very best (best as biased) moment to take a screenshot does not equal PROOF. "Oh, let's wait he transfer some probes, tehn let's take mass screens so I can select the highest income fluctuation, then create an imblance thread" is not valid argumentation, sorry.
The only fact people can't use math or logic to show a point and has to rely on biased/very rare real examples is usualy, in any domain, a very proof that this point is not valid.
The problem here is that a lot of people are like religious people when it comes down to imbalance. They want to beleive. So each time a topic like that is created, a wagon of people come to say "yes so true sick sick op", where in a normal environment, they just would be laughed at.
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Another one of these , doesn't it ever get old.
Yeah i totally agree that Mules are OP , Stimmed MM is OP as well , etc etc etc.
Then again , Chronoboost is OP , ForceFields are hacked-like OP , etc etc etc.
Also , Larva Inject is OP , can't think of anything else for zerg that is OP lol , i do think zerg in general are underpowered.
But tbh Terran and Protoss balance themselves out well , both are "OP-ed" in a different way, so both are not really OP
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As someone pointed out, what good is a ton of minerals when you can't spend them ? If you get production facilities according to MULEing permanently, each one you miss means that your macro will be suboptimal, because of production facilities left unused. If you get them according to your SCVs' mining, dropping x MULEs will give you a huge pile of minerals that you will need time and several production rounds to make use of.
MULEs would be OP on zergs, because of the larva mechanics : save up larvaes, call down multiple MULEs, produce a huge bunch of units at once. Terran can't do that.
Also, they can get their money back in some way, MULEing once they're sure they don't need scan. But for the time they aren't MULEing, their income is diminished. Kind of like when in TvT a single banshee can pay for itself by forcing 2 or more scans, because that's getting a temporary boost in income over your opponent that'll probably never get caught up (excluding worker harass, outexpanding, etc.) until both players stop expanding and get mined out. Virtually never, then.
MULEs allow terran to have a better income once saturated, but they saturate their bases slowlier (is that a word?), which means lower income early in the game, slightly better later. You can view it as a timing, and even then, it's an income-based mechanic, which doesn't affect macro unless you plan your production facilities accordingly, unlike spawn larvae, nor your tech/upgrades, unlike chronoboost.
You just can't compare those 3 abilities on grounds of income alone. They're not meant too.
I'm not saying there is no problems with MULEs, and I would be fine with a cooldown (not a 40s one like in the fake patch notes which is obviously too long, but a shorter one just to limit mass MULEing w/o making it impossible), but most of you are doing it wrong when trying to judge its balance.
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Like I said boosting your economy with mules...getting faster probes with chrono boost and spawning more drones with larva inject, should be removed from the game.
Chrono boosting others stuff is fine, it isn't countered with mules...I don't see why people even bring that up. Chrono boosting is a very skill full mechanic because it actually makes you think and prioritize upgrades and units.
Larva inject is okay, but not as great of skill mechanic as chrono boost IMO.
Mules are retarded, plain and simple. You don't even need them.
Cause as much as zerg and protoss can get probes or drones faster with larva inject and CB. Those units cost money and take up supply. Eventually you're going to stop making workers.
Mules are free. If SC2 actually had units like lurkers, mines then it would make some sense because terran would have to save his orbital energy for scans. But Terran has other detection tools as well. Ravens, turrets and even emp, all easy to come by.
Mules are broken for this game. They really add nothing exciting to the game. While other races find their workers to be a precious investment worth protecting. Terran easily sacrifice theirs without a care in the world. Mules are a terrible excessive mechanic.
I will also I don't like how all the races boost their economies. It's very nooby (I guess is the word) harassing a worker line should be a hallmark for starcraft. These boosts make harassment weaker, especially against terran. Which makes the game boring and bland.
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The other interesting thing is if a smarter player drops all his mules in a more vunerable expansion, it will ensure that if it gets destroyed he still managed to 'clean it out'
I actually like the cooldown idea from those patch notes, perhaps not 20 or 40s but 10s even would be nice.
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I think it really just comes down to the fact that chrono and inject are required for a win T could not have mules just scan and supply drop and do just fine, using no mules puts you n even footing with free no-risk scouting thats why mules are so powerful there extra as opposed to required
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yeah. mules are scary. u can kill as many workers as you want but it dont mean you are safe to expand or power worker cos they can just rebuild their army for 1 more push to bone u over
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another OP post? it dosent even know how many mules were casted. im getting tired of terran bashers.
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On September 17 2010 18:19 MrCon wrote:
Wow people are still discussing this as a possible OP thing ?
MULE, like chrono and inject, is a basic of each race. So it has to be the very thing that blizzard had carefuly studied, computed, "mathed" so it is perfectly balanced. Bcause it has to be. And it is, get over it.
Don't be ridiculous, it's impossible for a mechanic to be exactly balanced. If from the start Mules returned 29 instead of 30 minerals, would anyone tell the difference? If things were all balanced all the time, why would there be patches. Obviously there are many enflamed Terran imba posters that complain about everything, but that doesn't mean all of it is unjustified.
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How many mules did Morrow have?
Also notice that 12 of the probes are for collecting gas while Morrow has 0 gas income.
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Terran is OP becuase marines can shoot air and ground
Terran is OP becuase tanks can siege
Terran is OP becuase Mules collect minerals
Terran is OP becuase Ravens can PDD
Terran is OP becuase rauders have concussive shell
Terran is OP becuase We can upgrade building armor
Terran is OP becuase reapers can jump cliffs
Terran is OP becuase we have a dropship and medic in 1 unit!
Terran is OP becuase they can counter a voidray with 4-5 marines!
Terran is OP becuase Mech is good against zerg
Need I continue?
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quite understandable that you dont get some facts of imbalance on your own race.
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On September 17 2010 17:05 RuFF(TR) wrote:
If you nerf the mule you need to nerf the chrono boost and inject larva. These are the core abilities of each race. So far from blizzards response Chrono Boost is the most powerful at the moment. You have to understand that Terran can not shoot out workers as fast as protoss and zerg. So Terran is heavily prone to worker harasse unlike a protoss or zerg when you kill 20 workers and out of no where they have 20 again. The mule is to give Terran an edge on how fast the other races can produce workers.
you did not read the topic did you?
there was a very good example earlyer in the topic about how terrible chronoboost actualy is..
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On September 17 2010 14:26 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 14:14 Slivered Skin wrote:On September 17 2010 14:03 me_viet wrote:
Just stfu, ppls like you who just comes in here and is condescending to all other posters in a discussion forum thinking they're top shit gets me on edge. What are your credentials? ARE YOU a blizzard game designer? ARE you even a game designer at all? DO you even play the game? Are you even out of puberty yet?
Be constructive in a forum. Provide evidence. "blah blah blah you're all wanna-be game designers and have no clue" is just downright bm. For all we know, 10yrs from now we can look back and say "wow, mules were imba back then, how on earth did any1 beat Terran?" Woah, calm down there, mate. He's entitled to his own opinions, and your entitled to yours. I'm sure that we don't have to resort to personal attacks against someone's age to get a point across. And you know...I'm pretty sure he has a point about the whole hysteria thing going on. Being a zerg player myself, I'm rather annoyed at the number of people fussing about imbalance when the replay clearly shows that they lost because, well, they weren't as good a player. I'm going to reiterate the point made many times beforehand, and state that a cooldown on MULE would be fantastic. It would allow good players to keep up a steady stream of MULEs while preventing them (or lesser players) from spamming MULEs at a new expansion or one recently shut down by well-managed harass. It just makes it so much less rewarding to kill SCVs with mutas when the terran player doesn't even take an economy hit because of all the MULEs he just whipped up out of nowhere. The number of minerals it gathers, however, can most likely stay the same. The same number of minerals gathered off of one base in the end remains the same, so if you keep him contained he'll just run dry before you do in the end. 'lol i'm usually calm. He actually attacked the majority of posters in this thread by labelling them as "wannabe-game designers who have no clue" or accused them of just jumping on the 'bandwagon' for no reason. He actually posted nothing constructive in his post other than downright degrading other posters. If that's his 'opnion' than my opinion is stated in my post. Your last point (imo) is wrong. I would rather mine out my base first and have those minerals in the bank. An extreme example would be, wouldn't you rather be mined out at the start and have all those minerals in the bank?
Call it an attack or whatever you want it is still true. The "majority" part is your own words, maybe a freudian slip.
The fact remains that there are hundreds of people who are sitting around the forums taking single game elements and trying to list its strengths in order to point out its imbalance and in a game that is balanced across the board rather than piece for piece it makes no sense whatsofuckingever to compare MULE and Chronoboost against each other, at least not for the sake of game balance. Because they are not necessarily MEANT to be balanced.
The mindset among a lot of people on these forums are pretty much at the level of "Look at how fast colossi kill marines, they re OP!" No, they are supposed to kill marines that fast.
These threads will never go away because people expect to be able to detect and kill banshees with zealots.
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I would like it if you could feedback an orbital command. I think that might also help out with this.
Most of the "balance" here can be fixed by simply allowing more options to combat it.
But at the moment the best option is simply to kill their mules as often as you humanly can.
Also, when people say making a terran waste a scan, they don't mean just them choosing to scan your base. They mean forcing them to scan something that you're comfortable with them knowing. Or abusing the fact that he needs scans for detection. Maybe run a ling into his base and burrow it in his mineral line. He'll have to scan to kill off one ling. In other words, 25 minerals traded for a potential 270ish. You could also drop creep near his base and build a creep tumor there, essentially "trading" a larva inject for a mule, because they'll almost definitely scan to take out that creep tumor.
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So the other day I 6pooled a terran, took out everything he had except his barracks and his orbital command that he lifted off. He lands them on an expansion protected by rocks. I send my 3 drones back to mine and start attacking the rocks he mules up and uses his money to get marines to shoot from behind the rocks. I back off and tech to mutas. By the time I got some mutas he already had a nice bio ball with medivacs... lost that game.
There was some execution errors on my part, but I still think the reason I lost was because of the rock protected expo that he could lift off to and mules.
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On September 17 2010 22:55 DARKHYDRA wrote:
So the other day I 6pooled a terran, took out everything he had except his barracks and his orbital command that he lifted off. He lands them on an expansion protected by rocks. I send my 3 drones back to mine and start attacking the rocks he mules up and uses his money to get marines to shoot from behind the rocks. I back off and tech to mutas. By the time I got some mutas he already had a nice bio ball with medivacs... lost that game.
There was some execution errors on my part, but I still think the reason I lost was because of the rock protected expo that he could lift off to and mules.
Awww, poor baby.
I'm so sorry 6 pool isn't an auto win for you.
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On September 17 2010 18:19 MrCon wrote:
Wow people are still discussing this as a possible OP thing ?
MULE, like chrono and inject, is a basic of each race. So it has to be the very thing that blizzard had carefuly studied, computed, "mathed" so it is perfectly balanced. Bcause it has to be. And it is, get over it.
No, a replay where a biased player wait the very best (best as biased) moment to take a screenshot does not equal PROOF. "Oh, let's wait he transfer some probes, tehn let's take mass screens so I can select the highest income fluctuation, then create an imblance thread" is not valid argumentation, sorry.
The only fact people can't use math or logic to show a point and has to rely on biased/very rare real examples is usualy, in any domain, a very proof that this point is not valid.
The problem here is that a lot of people are like religious people when it comes down to imbalance. They want to beleive. So each time a topic like that is created, a wagon of people come to say "yes so true sick sick op", where in a normal environment, they just would be laughed at.
Coming from a religious background myself, I find it hilarious that you accuse those who disagree of you with being blinded by faith, when you are yourself practicing the concept of infallibility on Blizzard for no apparent reason. If you know anything about the history of the company, you know balance isn't their strong point. Starcraft 1's legacy is a combination of coming in at the right time with the right circumstances, getting lots of support from the community, and a bit of luck. There was a review posted very recently that has them explicitly stating how terrified they are to work on SC2 because they know it's next to impossible for them to create the same miracle twice.
If the math is, theoretically speaking, too complicated for the community to figure out, do you think Blizzard has some magical super computers or mad scientists who can crunch numbers better? If they're that capable with numbers, why are there balance problems at all?
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On September 17 2010 23:02 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 22:55 DARKHYDRA wrote:
So the other day I 6pooled a terran, took out everything he had except his barracks and his orbital command that he lifted off. He lands them on an expansion protected by rocks. I send my 3 drones back to mine and start attacking the rocks he mules up and uses his money to get marines to shoot from behind the rocks. I back off and tech to mutas. By the time I got some mutas he already had a nice bio ball with medivacs... lost that game.
There was some execution errors on my part, but I still think the reason I lost was because of the rock protected expo that he could lift off to and mules. Awww, poor baby. I'm so sorry 6 pool isn't an auto win for you.
Balancewise, I would love to hear a logical explanation for why Terran building lift off is even in the game, other than 'Because the first game had it.' The first game had Dark Swarm too but you don't see that coming back. Oh wait, they just renamed it Point Defense Drone, my mistake.
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On September 17 2010 18:19 MrCon wrote:
Wow people are still discussing this as a possible OP thing ?
MULE, like chrono and inject, is a basic of each race. So it has to be the very thing that blizzard had carefuly studied, computed, "mathed" so it is perfectly balanced. Bcause it has to be. And it is, get over it.
Actually the macro mechanics were added in just before beta started. They were thrown in when people complained about there not being enough to do early game. So I think blizzard missed the ball with them. They balanced a game without them then threw them in at the last second and now things are a bit messed. The game has been sped up because of them which is causing issues. They should just remove them completely.
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EPT
