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The Power of the Mule. - Page 10

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KingAce
Profile Joined September 2010
United States471 Posts
September 16 2010 19:52 GMT
#181
Honestly I believe chrono boosting probes, spawning extra larva for drones and mules should be removed from the game. I don't really see how boosting your economy this way can be balanced for all races and it's just not an interesting mechanic at all.

Killing off mining scvs is pretty useless especially mid to late game.Terran mines so efficiently that they can even afford to make extra orbital commands in the late game.
You're better off sniping refineries.

And mules don't take up any food compared to probes or drones.

These new eco mechanics make one of the more interesting things in Starcraft weak, I mean economic harassment.
"You're defined by the WORST of your group..." Bill Burr
PTZ.
Profile Joined September 2010
72 Posts
September 16 2010 19:54 GMT
#182
On September 16 2010 17:08 Frack wrote:
It would be interesting if the mule had a cooldown, say 30secs to a minute, but then chrono boost doesnt have a cool down and larva stacks.

But i wouldnt be opposed to a trial period of a cooldown to see how it works.


As painful as the spawn larva mechanic is, the queen does have other less-useful abilities to excess energy on. So does the OC.

The nexus only has CB which if you put on a cooldown will make it worse than the current Spawn Larva mechanic.
mols0n
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada388 Posts
September 16 2010 19:55 GMT
#183
Screen shot is completely misleading because you don't know how many mules MorroW has called down. Also there is a brief lag between resources gathered per minute. MorroW could have just had most of his SCV's killed like 10 seconds ago and it just hasn't updated
x7i
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom122 Posts
September 16 2010 19:58 GMT
#184
On September 17 2010 04:52 KingAce wrote:
Honestly I believe chrono boosting probes, spawning extra larva for drones and mules should be removed from the game. I don't really see how boosting your economy this way can be balanced for all races and it's just not an interesting mechanic at all.

quite simply, removing mule and giving reactor ability to oc
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
September 16 2010 19:59 GMT
#185
On September 17 2010 04:52 KingAce wrote:
Honestly I believe chrono boosting probes, spawning extra larva for drones and mules should be removed from the game. I don't really see how boosting your economy this way can be balanced for all races and it's just not an interesting mechanic at all.

Killing off mining scvs is pretty useless especially mid to late game.Terran mines so efficiently that they can even afford to make extra orbital commands in the late game.
You're better off sniping refineries.

And mules don't take up any food compared to probes or drones.

These new eco mechanics make one of the more interesting things in Starcraft weak, I mean economic harassment.


Drones/Chrono boost have a very good dynamic, if you want to replenish your economy then you pay in other aspects. As Protoss you increase the rate at which you tech/Produce units and as Zerg you have to juggle a balance between your army and drones, Terran doesn't seem to have a big disadvantage with Mules.
Phant
Profile Joined August 2010
United States737 Posts
September 16 2010 20:01 GMT
#186
So much misconception in this thread!

Some quick facts.

Chrono Boost DOES NOT double production time, "producing 50% faster" means "reduce time by 33%"

Also, most units and research are designed with chrono boost in mind. most of the research has very long times and are almost always necessary beyond early game before a unit becomes useful (see Colossus without thermal lance or high templar without storm or amulet, might as well have a "kill me" sign). Yes you can chono boost probes, but that takes away from chrono boosting upgrades and army, which is pretty important.

I guarantee you Blizz balances out the early game with MULEs in mind, but the problem is there is no penalty for forgetting to MULE since they can all be dropped at once. Can you chrono boost all at once? sure you can, but you can't chrono a research 3 times faster because you forgot to chrono it at he start, Chrono boost is way more forgiving than inject larva, but still pales in comparison to the utility of a MULE.

Oh...and gold expansions.

Simple fix: Cooldown or 1 per base. It would be ok to have a cooldown as long as the MULE lasts because the CC has other ways to use energy (I have never met a Terran who doesn't use scan). All you have on the Nexus is chrono boost, letting the energy pile up because of a cooldown would pretty much leave you at 100% energy all the time unless you are really on top of things. (It would make it worse than spawn Larva IMO).
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-16 20:12:56
September 16 2010 20:12 GMT
#187
Well, some quick facts to your factual screenshot which is taken out of context.
A mule is about 4-5 SCV in mining.
As you MIGHT have seen, Morrow did pull all his SCV off gas. which is 19 probes on minerals.
Plus 4 Mules (it's not like he can call down 4 mules every 30s) working which makes it 35-39 SCV depending on close or further mineral patches.
HUK had 12 probes saturating his gas efficiency. so that is 35-39SV vs 40 probes on minerals.
So all is fine ...
Please check the context before you make imbalance threads.
and due to chrono bost a toss can have 4-5 more probes as T has SCV until full saturation of 1 base.
So the Mule just makes up for that.
When you get a T scanning now he literally loses about 300 minerals.

cheers
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
September 16 2010 20:22 GMT
#188
On September 17 2010 05:12 c0rn1 wrote:
Well, some quick facts to your factual screenshot which is taken out of context.
A mule is about 4-5 SCV in mining.
As you MIGHT have seen, Morrow did pull all his SCV off gas. which is 19 probes on minerals.
Plus 4 Mules (it's not like he can call down 4 mules every 30s) working which makes it 35-39 SCV depending on close or further mineral patches.
HUK had 12 probes saturating his gas efficiency. so that is 35-39SV vs 40 probes on minerals.
So all is fine ...
Please check the context before you make imbalance threads.
and due to chrono bost a toss can have 4-5 more probes as T has SCV until full saturation of 1 base.
So the Mule just makes up for that.
When you get a T scanning now he literally loses about 300 minerals.

cheers


Err, I think your missing something here. Morrow was down to 19 SVC's after losing a fuck ton defending, his entire production cycle accumulated significantly more than 19 SVC's, if he didn't lose all those SVC's it's safe to assume that Morrow would have been 15-20 SVC's ahead...
checo
Profile Joined November 2008
Mexico1364 Posts
September 16 2010 20:28 GMT
#189
LOL... so having equal income for about a minute is actually better that been able to catch back on workers with inject larva and crono???

Are you guys serious??? P or Z would be able to get those workers back so damn fast yet terran just gets about 90sec of incomen then the MULES die and your still so many workers behind, while P and Z have much more workers...
El amor no mueve al mundo, ni hace brillar el sol, pero el amor hace latir este corazon....
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-16 20:49:39
September 16 2010 20:35 GMT
#190
On September 16 2010 23:34 MorroW wrote:
its funyn u take that game as example because i fell behind insanily hard barely survived and then lost the game miserbly. i never got back into the game with the mule i just made the game last longer while i had so big disadvantage

chrono boost and spawn larva lets u get out workers alot faster and i think thats better than the mule because the mule is always a set number of minerals while squeezing out workers faster multiplies in effectiveness :p

ppl r really overdoing the mules "imbaness" i hope u realize if u nerfed it it would turn terran matchups so hard for terran because the mule actually gives that much

mule nerf would be nice for gameplay imo but they would be forced to compensate it with other things for the terran race


its all well and good to see a pro reply to all of us lowbie newbs, but i dont think your entirely right here
yes the game was out of context and yes this discussion is probably over the top, but mules combined with still making scvs is just a little bit over the top at the moment, that will probably get balanced around instead of changed anyway
as for compensation, terrans hardly need it since they are the most powerful race as is


On September 17 2010 02:36 Bleedorang3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 02:30 Wr3k wrote:
Keep in mind chrono and inject allow P and Z to produce workers literally twice as fast as T, so in reality its not as powerful as you might think.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You do realize, at least in Zergs case, that larvae have to be split between:

1: Drones
2: Combat Units
3: Supply (Overlords)

Correct? And then Drones have to be split again between harvesting and building creation.

Yes, MULES are as powerful as we think.


QFT
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Pyre
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1940 Posts
September 16 2010 20:40 GMT
#191
Mules let T be ahead in income of a equal base zerg or protoss all game. Watch 99% of replays and see their income tab. More drones/probes cost minerals, after 16 workers mining efficiency drops in half. I haven't tested but I bet 16 scv's with a mule mines faster then 24 drones or probes. So terran is getting more income and spent 400 less minerals on their economy. That sounds balanced and fair to you?

spawn lavra = completely unforgiving, miss 1 and you are behind
chrono boost = nice in theory but upgrades and units have a built in extra build time
mules = always ahead in income no real downside for being late on using them, 2 other great alternatives as well.
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
September 16 2010 20:42 GMT
#192
On September 17 2010 02:03 KaiserJohan wrote:
I'd trade Mule/scan for chrono boost any day. Any day.


id trade inject larvae and spread creep for mules and scan...
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
nemahsys
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada457 Posts
September 16 2010 20:45 GMT
#193
On September 16 2010 17:18 attackfighter wrote:
It only mines minerals faster, so while it's powerful it's not going to give the Terran an edge where it counts most - gas. Gas heavy units like collusus, high templar, tanks, ghosts, medivacs and vikings are just so pivotal in TvT, it really overshadows the extra marines/marauders that the mule will get you.

Mules can be super duper good in some situations though; like you noted, they let you maintain a decent income after losing lots of workers, and another major benefit is in the early game when mineral only units are a lot stronger (their counters aren't teched to yet).



I agree, colossus and high templar are pivotal units in TVT


DOT DOT DOT
DJ Wheat, if you read this, plz get Lo3 back on itunes stat!
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
September 16 2010 20:47 GMT
#194
On September 17 2010 05:22 Dommk wrote:
Err, I think your missing something here. Morrow was down to 19 SVC's after losing a fuck ton defending, his entire production cycle accumulated significantly more than 19 SVC's, if he didn't lose all those SVC's it's safe to assume that Morrow would have been 15-20 SVC's ahead...


Did you even read what I wrote?
1st of all: He called down 4 Mules, which is 200 Energy. (OC only regenerated 50/mule lifecycle), so he mined minerals he could've gotten before.
2nd of all: if you check the replay until HuK stopped to continously produce, HuK was ahead 4 probes due to 4 chrono bosts he made. (minute 6 - 27:23 in favor of HuK).
3rd of all: Protoss does lose minor mining time due to building than terran because 1.5 SCV are constantly building something. so we are at 27:21.5 in favor for HuK.
4th of all: HuK had 12 probes mining gas. So he is down to about 40 probes mining minerals. Do you see Morrow mining any?
5th of all: HuKs natural was oversaturated if you check the replay because 2-3 probes were running back and forth, stopping and mining only at 1/3 efficiency.

1 Mule brings in about 5 SCV mining efficiency. Morrow had 4 Mules going. 19 SCV + 20 SCV in form of mules = 39 SCV to 39/40 probes on minerals = EVEN.
And to repeat myself again: HE HAD 4 mules because he accumulated the energy before, so he just mined in minerals he could've mined before.

cheers
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
September 16 2010 20:50 GMT
#195
On September 16 2010 17:23 inF.PrO wrote:
lol chroono boost is rly better -.- u can make 2 probe while i make 1 scv and the probe are 4ever -.-

Lets not negate the fact that these 4 probes you'll get out of 50 energy, still wont mine the same amount as a mule, and with the 2 scvs you made you'll actually exceed the amount!

totally balanced
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
September 16 2010 20:54 GMT
#196
On September 17 2010 05:50 arb wrote:

Lets not negate the fact that these 4 probes you'll get out of 50 energy, still wont mine the same amount as a mule, and with the 2 scvs you made you'll actually exceed the amount!

totally balanced


Did you yet think about the fact that SCV actually have to be present to build any Terran building?
So from the very first supply depot you have most of the time 2 SCV doing nothing else than using a hammer and drill to build new stuff?

cheers
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-16 20:58:49
September 16 2010 20:55 GMT
#197
On September 17 2010 04:30 Acritter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2010 23:34 MorroW wrote:
its funyn u take that game as example because i fell behind insanily hard barely survived and then lost the game miserbly. i never got back into the game with the mule i just made the game last longer while i had so big disadvantage

chrono boost and spawn larva lets u get out workers alot faster and i think thats better than the mule because the mule is always a set number of minerals while squeezing out workers faster multiplies in effectiveness :p

ppl r really overdoing the mules "imbaness" i hope u realize if u nerfed it it would turn terran matchups so hard for terran because the mule actually gives that much

mule nerf would be nice for gameplay imo but they would be forced to compensate it with other things for the terran race


Does anyone else find Morrow's posts to be disturbingly... low quality for a player of his caliber? I will admit I've only seen him post twice, but both posts were in balance threads saying that if feature X (1.1 Tanks was the other one, IIRC) of Terran were to be nerfed the race would become unplayable. He also seems to be missing some of the points of the arguments, such as the fact that it didn't matter whether he won that game, just that the MULEs were able to supplement his income to such a huge degree. I'm not saying that he's bad or unqualified, just that there seem to be a lot of missing ideas from his posts here.

OT: The main power of MULEs seems to be their ability to skyrocket Terran income on 1-2 base play. This lets them match Protoss and Zerg players with more bases, and lets them expand later and focus on harass earlier. I wouldn't say it's the core of the problem, but it meshes very strongly with the innate features of the Terran race- extreme harass ability, the versatile and powerful Marine, and strong mineral-heavy static defense- to really boost the strength of certain varieties of Terran play. If, say, Zerg got MULEs, then they really wouldn't be able to abuse them as much, because Zerg is primarily limited by gas. Giant Zergling armies just aren't as strong, and there's no harass Zerg can really rush to on one or two bases to make use of the accelerated income.


the player with the most tourney wins since release doesnt want his race nerfed because its all his mad skills and there is no underlying imbalance
although, even if the games imbalanced he has to beat other T's
id say morrow has a valid point to some degree here, T's biggest balance issues are not mules, because they can be balanced around (similar to how CB has been)


On September 17 2010 05:54 c0rn1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 05:50 arb wrote:

Lets not negate the fact that these 4 probes you'll get out of 50 energy, still wont mine the same amount as a mule, and with the 2 scvs you made you'll actually exceed the amount!

totally balanced


Did you yet think about the fact that SCV actually have to be present to build any Terran building?
So from the very first supply depot you have most of the time 2 SCV doing nothing else than using a hammer and drill to build new stuff?

cheers


its 3 probes:2 scvs, just for the record

also; at least terrans get the worker back afterwords *cough zerg cough*
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
September 16 2010 21:05 GMT
#198
On September 17 2010 04:30 Acritter wrote:

Does anyone else find Morrow's posts to be disturbingly... low quality for a player of his caliber? I will admit I've only seen him post twice, but both posts were in balance threads saying that if feature X (1.1 Tanks was the other one, IIRC) of Terran were to be nerfed the race would become unplayable. He also seems to be missing some of the points of the arguments, such as the fact that it didn't matter whether he won that game, just that the MULEs were able to supplement his income to such a huge degree. I'm not saying that he's bad or unqualified, just that there seem to be a lot of missing ideas from his posts here.

OT: The main power of MULEs seems to be their ability to skyrocket Terran income on 1-2 base play. This lets them match Protoss and Zerg players with more bases, and lets them expand later and focus on harass earlier. I wouldn't say it's the core of the problem, but it meshes very strongly with the innate features of the Terran race- extreme harass ability, the versatile and powerful Marine, and strong mineral-heavy static defense- to really boost the strength of certain varieties of Terran play. If, say, Zerg got MULEs, then they really wouldn't be able to abuse them as much, because Zerg is primarily limited by gas. Giant Zergling armies just aren't as strong, and there's no harass Zerg can really rush to on one or two bases to make use of the accelerated income.


You just said that mules lay eggs with minerals in it and increase the mineral concentration in the patches so Terran have to expand later?
I apologize but my experience showed me that the patches are just gone more quickly when a mule nibbled at it.

cheers
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
koppik
Profile Joined April 2010
United States676 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-16 21:52:08
September 16 2010 21:48 GMT
#199
When at full saturation, a terran will mine slightly faster thanks to mules. But, really, you need 52 workers to optimally saturate two bases. Against a Protoss, for instance, who has been chrono'ing probes like crazy, he'll reach that point 3 minutes later than his Protoss opponent. A zerg would reach full saturation even quicker.

MULES are good, and Terran needs them. In terms of power as a macromechanic, it goes

larva inject >> chronoboost > mules.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
September 16 2010 21:52 GMT
#200
On September 17 2010 06:48 koppik wrote:
When at full saturation, a terran will mine slightly faster thanks to mules. But, really, you need 52 workers to optimally saturate two bases. Against a Protoss, for instance, who has been chrono'ing probes like crazy, he'll reach that point 3 minutes later than his Protoss opponent.

A zerg would reach full saturation even quicker.


I was just thinking, the longer a game lasts, are mules not actually a bad thing? Since yes, you'll have the boost in minerals now, but you're going to mine out faster than your opponent and being in a game where you've mined all your bases out, to someone still mining, I think we know how that ends.
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