|
On September 17 2010 00:07 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +It seems people are just pointing out unique race mechanics and qqing over it. Mule spam and the spike in eco is pretty good and makes for good strats and comebacks. I feel the toss equivalent is the ridiculous spike in army units a toss can get off chronoing multiple warp-gates. They are both different and awesome in their own ways, there should be a place for both of them in the game.
Sure... but whats the Zerg equivalent. Oh, thats right, there isn't one, because Spawn larva is the only macro mechanic that can't be spammed.
Its pretty difficult for zerg to keep up with the macro mechanic I'll give you that. Problem is spawn larvae would be broken (way more than mules and chrono) without cool down. At my level I just make some more hatches in mid game and it works out well. Five hatches off 3 base macro is pretty good and quite forgiving on larva injections and not too hard to get esp. with the mineral surplus that zerg builds up. I also feel zerg would have an easier time if we didn't have those stupid destructible rocks blocking extra bases which are already a few hundred miles away from your main and natural. Its takes so much effort to connect everything with creep them and then T ruins all that hard work within seconds with just one scan and a-move :'(.
|
On September 16 2010 19:17 LaLuSh wrote:
What you don't realize often is that in SC2, you reach full saturation on 1base pretty quick. The only point where Protoss has an income advantage vs terran is during the first 4-5 minutes of the game. As you move towards full saturation, terran is going to mine more minerals than you every subsequent minute because of the MULE.
yes this is precisely the case. In fact, I'd argue that Terran always has a resource advantage over Protoss/Zerg because the MULE is so efficient. For example, at the 5 minute mark, Protoss may have 20 probes while the Terran has 16 SCVs. However, the Terran also has a mule, which is between 5-7 SCVs. That's a major advantage for nothing, considering that it's mining as fast as 5-7 SCVs, but you didn't need to drop an investment other than OC energy for that extra income. Once bases are saturated, the MULE allows for an extra income level over Protoss/Zerg. The problem is only compounded by expansions, since two MULEs give a much better return than two Nexuses making probes.
|
what i think needs to be done about mules is to give the player a 1 mule at a time per command center limit. terran's macro mechanic needs to be more like zerg's. even though blizzard had no fucking clue what they were going to do with zerg in most aspects, they got the macro mechanic right: something that raises the skill ceiling by punishing the player for not doing it properly.
that's the problem with terran's macro mechanic. it rewards the terran for doing it but doesn't punish them for not doing it. forget your orbital commands exists because you were too busy not doing anything? no big deal, call down 4 mules.
what i like about zerg is that they can't do that. if they miss an injection, they can't double inject a hatchery. they have missed that injection and there is no way to get it back. that's the way terran should be. if they miss a mule, that's it. no making up for it. sure you can spend the energy on scans or supply drops like a queen can on transfusions or creep tumors, but there is still no making up for the most important mechanic. it would also give terran players the incentive to expand. "hey, if i expand, i can get more mules".
i don't have a problem with chrono boosts stacking though. protoss needs more chrono boosts to stack up for more buildings, and what with the warp gate nerf coming up, they're going to be punished if they don't manage their chrono boosts well.
|
On September 16 2010 23:34 MorroW wrote:
its funyn u take that game as example because i fell behind insanily hard barely survived and then lost the game miserbly. i never got back into the game with the mule i just made the game last longer while i had so big disadvantage
chrono boost and spawn larva lets u get out workers alot faster and i think thats better than the mule because the mule is always a set number of minerals while squeezing out workers faster multiplies in effectiveness :p
ppl r really overdoing the mules "imbaness" i hope u realize if u nerfed it it would turn terran matchups so hard for terran because the mule actually gives that much
mule nerf would be nice for gameplay imo but they would be forced to compensate it with other things for the terran race
QFT
|
I do think that MULEs allow for comebacks that really shouldn't be possible. They tend to cause more aggravation for T's opponent than fun for T, so I don't think it's a good mechanic. A simple cooldown (20 seconds?) would fix everything (presuming it's broken) without changing anything but the late game.
|
Apparently there is a cooldown on the MULE on the first patch. Not sure if it's true or not, but it better be. MULE really needs to be changed.
|
mules can also repair and be dropped on enemy siege tanks or other nuisance units
|
but whats the Zerg equivalent.
Oh, thats right, there isn't one, because Spawn larva is the only macro mechanic that can't be spammed
Spawn larva is a combination of unit production and drone production. Missing a spawn larva is like forgetting to warp units in from a warpgate for 30 seconds as much as it is like missing a chronoboost. Do you think when Protoss forgets to warp in units they should be able to spam extra units later?
The macro mechanics are very different and serve different purposes and that is why they work differently.
The one change I would like is for orbital commands to spawn with 25 energy. This would mean a delay before you could MULE and you would have to actually choose when to get the OC instead of always getting it asap. It would also make expanding a little bit more painful for Terran.
|
On September 16 2010 23:34 MorroW wrote:
chrono boost and spawn larva lets u get out workers alot faster and i think thats better than the mule because the mule is always a set number of minerals while squeezing out workers faster multiplies in effectiveness :p
It should be considered that more real units require more supply, so more Pylons/Overlords are needed for workers early on. Very difficult to compare all of those mechanics completely.
|
Picutre doesn't say a lot when its pretty obvious he's transferring probes.
54 workers doesn't only make 1300 per minute.
Not to mention unless you're going pure hellion marine, which is absolute shit against toss, minerals wont help you when you're in need of gas, since if you're engaging a toss past tier 1, you need gas units primarily.
|
I don't see the issue.
You'll notice he's mining no gas, right? I'd hate having an army comprised of Marines / Hellions to fight collosi / high templars / whatever that costs gas.
I used to think TL was smarter overall compared to the b.net forums, but I'm seeing a lot of threads like these popping up...
|
MULES kind of blow as a macromechanic. They're good, but it's no chronoboost or larva inject.
You're actually better off using a lot more scans except in the early game, where it's really necessary to use mules to keep up with the higher worker counts of the other races.
|
rumour has it there is a cooldown on mule now. hooray
|
On September 17 2010 01:38 Leeoku wrote:
rumour has it there is a cooldown on mule now. hooray
Last I checked it didn't have a cooldown. But that was a day or two ago.
|
United States47024 Posts
Yeah, that picture pretty much isn't representative of anything. Morrow isn't mining gas, so there's 12 harvesters you have to factor out of Huk's income. Morrow also has 1-2 MULEs that he missed, but is making up for. While it's a nice boost to income, it means he gave up that 5-ish workers worth of mining earlier, and that this income rate is not sustainable. Finally, since HuK's main is more mined out, he is not getting full saturation's worth of income out of it.
It's basically comparing the income of one fully saturated base vs. 2 half-saturated bases--which should be about the same.
|
On September 16 2010 21:28 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:26 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:56 eNbee wrote:On September 16 2010 19:52 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:35 Mato wrote:On September 16 2010 19:24 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings Way to only read half his post. Way to miss the point. I read the rest of the post. Zerg can pump Drones faster than other races can make their workers. So what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the MULE, and it certainly doesn't justify the idea that they shouldn't be nerfed. Zerg can pump faster because of their mule counterpart... Get it...? Anyways mules > *, for econ, which is why it needs a cooldown so at least you have to be on top of it to get that economic advantage. Also remember terrans can't speed up their unit production with their "racial omg special energy ability" 'Get it'? Nope, apparently you still don't understand. Being able to pump Drones faster because of Larvae has absolutely nothing to do with MULEs. In BW Zerg had the same ability and MULEs did not exist. Ye but in BW you didnt have Queens for more larvae/hatch...
No in BW you just had 4+ hatch instead of 1 hatch and 1 queen.
|
That screenshot is so much biased in everyway possible.
The protoss has a really low mineral income/worker, how is that ?
The terran, on the other hand, has saved energy like for 2 entire full CC to be able to have so much income and used like 8 mules at the same time. Obv the income is very fluctuating whith mule, like with +300 / -300. I'm sure the person who took the scree nwas really honest and took a median income. Sure. It's not like the T was at half income for the rest of the game when he saved his energy while the protoss chronoed probes to quickly gain a 3 to 2 worker advantage. Nooo, let's not talk about that.
Let's just say it's imba, imbaness is the solution of every problem and every loss.
Perhaps my post is overreacting, but reading OP then the first page nearly made me puke. I guess TL is the new official WOW forum. I hope not.
edit : well, obv I didn't read the part when more clever people are posting and are really better at explaining without over reacting than I am.
|
On September 16 2010 21:26 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 19:56 eNbee wrote:On September 16 2010 19:52 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:35 Mato wrote:On September 16 2010 19:24 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings Way to only read half his post. Way to miss the point. I read the rest of the post. Zerg can pump Drones faster than other races can make their workers. So what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the MULE, and it certainly doesn't justify the idea that they shouldn't be nerfed. Zerg can pump faster because of their mule counterpart... Get it...? Anyways mules > *, for econ, which is why it needs a cooldown so at least you have to be on top of it to get that economic advantage. Also remember terrans can't speed up their unit production with their "racial omg special energy ability" 'Get it'? Nope, apparently you still don't understand. Being able to pump Drones faster because of Larvae has absolutely nothing to do with MULEs . In BW Zerg had the same ability and MULEs did not exist.
And that would indeed be a problem if sc2 was a broodwar port to a new engine. Which it's not. T's are balanced (perhaps incorrectly, I'm not to judge that) around having MULE's.
And also being able to pump drones faster because of larvae has EVERYTHING to do with MULE's. It's zergs counterpart to MULE's......................................
Also I give up.
|
I'd trade Mule/scan for chrono boost any day. Any day.
|
On September 17 2010 02:03 KaiserJohan wrote:
I'd trade Mule/scan for chrono boost any day. Any day.
This man does not speak for all Terrans 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
