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On September 16 2010 21:08 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:53 Scruff wrote:
Mules are fucken ridonkulous. Watch when they save up energy and drop 12 mules on to a gold expansion. Seriously, I once rushed a terran and killed almost every single SCV he had and 5 mins later he raped me with 20 marauder.
Why does blizzard make all terran units so unbelievably good? So you let him sit in his base for FIVE MINUTES building units and you think you lost because Terran is OP? Zerg and Toss can make workers much faster, at the expense of army size. Terran can summon temporary workers, at the expense of detection. Terran has by far the most restrictive mobile detection unit, and faces two races that have incredibly strong cloaked/burrowed units. And how do we save energy for 12 mules? That takes 3 orbitals at full energy, which means we're not scanning at all for a very, very long time. You're whining because another race doesn't work exactly like yours. You're playing the wrong game. If zerg is at a disadvantage, then fix that, don't call for homogenization of all races just because you can't think of complex balance issues in any other way but "my arbitrary hobby horse issue is obviously to blame".
I'm not sure I understand this. How is building a raven restrictive? Or, putting down a missile turret anywhere you like in your base? By not scanning you are simply playing at the capabilities of the other races whom rely solely on units for scouting. That is no disadvantage by comparison in the slightest.
Saving up your energy was the entire point of OP's post. The whole point of the strategy involves saving your energy so you can send your scvs with your force, and then drop mules to keep your previous economy going. This is why the drone argument doesn't hold because while zerg has to spend the time waiting for spawn larva, and then drone production time, and sacrificing unit production, the equivalent terran still has an economy going instantly, and is still producing units. Thanks, but try again.
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On September 16 2010 21:14 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 20:43 Raevin wrote:
Many of you are missing the point: When you lose alot of your workers, T has a very easy way to stage a comeback, Z and P dont have this luxury.
Chrono and Larvae is not going to help as much as a couple of mules, its basically a second lifeline to T Really? Being able to spawn 14+ drones in one production cycle is not a viable comeback mechanic? Next thing you'll complain that zerg/toss structures are stuck to the ground, nerf liftoff.
You can spawn so much if you have minerals for that, right? Terran does not need minerals to get mules.
Realistically you have lost ton of drones after opponent attack, that mean you invested most minerals and larvas into attacking units.
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OK, now discuss what the MULE is going to be like with the 40 second cooldown.
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Picture doesn't say it all. How dow we know what the probes are up to? It's only two base, so even if all of them are mining they aren't getting full use because of oversaturation. Also, you do realize it's impossible to keep up scv production with probe production, thereby making the mule a necessity?
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wow i really hate mules.. and that screenshot is just disgusting.
Of course, the mule becomes my favorite spell when I'm playing terran. I switched cold turkey and won all my first 5 games using only MMM. It's super easy!
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On September 16 2010 19:56 eNbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 19:52 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:35 Mato wrote:On September 16 2010 19:24 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings Way to only read half his post. Way to miss the point. I read the rest of the post. Zerg can pump Drones faster than other races can make their workers. So what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the MULE, and it certainly doesn't justify the idea that they shouldn't be nerfed. Zerg can pump faster because of their mule counterpart... Get it...? Anyways mules > *, for econ, which is why it needs a cooldown so at least you have to be on top of it to get that economic advantage. Also remember terrans can't speed up their unit production with their "racial omg special energy ability"
'Get it'? Nope, apparently you still don't understand.
Being able to pump Drones faster because of Larvae has absolutely nothing to do with MULEs. In BW Zerg had the same ability and MULEs did not exist.
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On September 16 2010 21:23 gillon wrote:
Picture doesn't say it all. How dow we know what the probes are up to? It's only two base, so even if all of them are mining they aren't getting full use because of oversaturation. Also, you do realize it's impossible to keep up scv production with probe production, thereby making the mule a necessity?
Just look at the minimap? Or if you are really curious, watch the replay yourself? Lastly, irregardless of oversaturation, having 32 or 48 workers on minerals versus 19 workers for terran obtaining the same income. What do you think of that figure?
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On September 16 2010 21:26 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 19:56 eNbee wrote:On September 16 2010 19:52 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:35 Mato wrote:On September 16 2010 19:24 Lefnui wrote:On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings Way to only read half his post. Way to miss the point. I read the rest of the post. Zerg can pump Drones faster than other races can make their workers. So what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the MULE, and it certainly doesn't justify the idea that they shouldn't be nerfed. Zerg can pump faster because of their mule counterpart... Get it...? Anyways mules > *, for econ, which is why it needs a cooldown so at least you have to be on top of it to get that economic advantage. Also remember terrans can't speed up their unit production with their "racial omg special energy ability" 'Get it'? Nope, apparently you still don't understand. Being able to pump Drones faster because of Larvae has absolutely nothing to do with MULEs. In BW Zerg had the same ability and MULEs did not exist.
Ye but in BW you didnt have Queens for more larvae/hatch...
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you have to sneak in and kill these shiny yellow lil buggers
User was temp banned for this and other crappy posts
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On September 16 2010 21:27 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:23 gillon wrote:
Picture doesn't say it all. How dow we know what the probes are up to? It's only two base, so even if all of them are mining they aren't getting full use because of oversaturation. Also, you do realize it's impossible to keep up scv production with probe production, thereby making the mule a necessity? Just look at the minimap? Or if you are really curious, watch the replay yourself? Lastly, irregardless of oversaturation, having 32 or 48 workers on minerals versus 19 workers for terran obtaining the same income. What do you think of that figure?
How many workers did they have before the battle?
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over 9000
User was warned for this post
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On September 16 2010 21:18 a176 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this. How is building a raven restrictive?
You need to tech up to a starport and then put a tech lab on it. A lot of builds and comps are hindered by putting that addon on the starport.
Zerg mobile detection just requires a lair, something you're going to 100% tech to in every single game, and the build time is negligible.
Toss mobile detection is perma-cloaked, and only requires a robo, a structure that is used in most builds. Can be chrono'd out.
Or, putting down a missile turret anywhere you like in your base? By not scanning you are simply playing at the capabilities of the other races whom rely solely on units for scouting.
Missile turrets aren't mobile detection. Spore crawlers and cannons are almost entirely equivalent so that's not even a relevant discussion.
Scanning is done at the expense of economy. Of course I will scan if needed. Scans are a vital part of terran scouting and detection, and if all we had were starport units we'd be completely screwed.
Saving up your energy was the entire point of OP's post. The whole point of the strategy involves saving your energy so you can send your scvs with your force, and then drop mules to keep your previous economy going. This is why the drone argument doesn't hold because while zerg has to spend the time waiting for spawn larva, and then drone production time, and sacrificing unit production, the equivalent terran still has an economy going instantly, and is still producing units. Thanks, but try again.
Zerg would never use workers in the first place since so many of their units are melee. Toss can most certainly do that.
Likewise, our mineral income might be artificially extended for a few minutes, but we also have the slowest unit production, and we sacrifice a lot of scouting info and detection to build up all that energy.
If the Terran isn't scanning you, and is stacking energy in hopes of an all in with SCVs, then punish that. Force scans, hide tech, harass.
And why is saving up energy for mass MULEs not a viable strategy, if saving larva or chrono boosting armies is?
Why is it a bad thing that terrans can temporarily extend their income, but it's not a bad thing that a Zerg on multiple bases can replace pretty much their entire army in one production cycle?
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You need to tech up to a starport and then put a tech lab on it. A lot of builds and comps are hindered by putting that addon on the starport.
And with that, I'm bowing out of this thread, which will probably get locked pretty soon anyways.
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On September 16 2010 17:18 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:08 Frack wrote:
It would be interesting if the mule had a cooldown, say 30secs to a minute, but then chrono boost doesnt have a cool down and larva stacks.
But i wouldnt be opposed to a trial period of a cooldown to see how it works. SC2 was in beta for five months...
in fact, this LINK might bring some light into future Blizzard plans for 1.1 patch. As it says in the title, it's unconfirmed, just supposed to be leaked Blizz information
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"Drones now mine 6 minerals per trip" is one I want to see
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On September 16 2010 17:18 attackfighter wrote:
It only mines minerals faster, so while it's powerful it's not going to give the Terran an edge where it counts most - gas. Gas heavy units like collusus, high templar, tanks, ghosts, medivacs and vikings are just so pivotal in TvT, it really overshadows the extra marines/marauders that the mule will get you.
Mules can be super duper good in some situations though; like you noted, they let you maintain a decent income after losing lots of workers, and another major benefit is in the early game when mineral only units are a lot stronger (their counters aren't teched to yet).
lol. how imba would it be if you can control all those units... sc1:bw final campaign any1?
If you've been following the pros play, most top T players are playing a bio style TvP now.
TvT... it's a mirror...so no inherent imba-ness.
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IMO the only problem with MULES is that you can cast them at other expansions. Mathematically, whenever Terran is holding a gold expansion anywhere, all of their OCs on the map automatically become able to generate twice the income, even if they decided to PF the gold. I've played games where opponents have made massive armies out of less bases and almost entirely mined out mains and nats because they spammed 12 MULES down on a gold expo.
It makes it unwise to take a gold in response to or in advance of having a T do the same, and it forces other races in to agression, possibly against a PF, depending on how close the match is.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a timer, a drop in minerals (270 is pretty high), or maybe even a reduced lifespan if they harvest the more valuable (maybe we could say "harder") gold minerals.
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On September 16 2010 17:18 attackfighter wrote:
It only mines minerals faster, so while it's powerful it's not going to give the Terran an edge where it counts most - gas. Gas heavy units like collusus, high templar, tanks, ghosts, medivacs and vikings are just so pivotal in TvT, it really overshadows the extra marines/marauders that the mule will get you.
Mules can be super duper good in some situations though; like you noted, they let you maintain a decent income after losing lots of workers, and another major benefit is in the early game when mineral only units are a lot stronger (their counters aren't teched to yet).
you're missing a vital point, terran can throw up 3-4 barracs and start pumping marines for that money and their tech doesn't get slowed down one bit, this gives them early pressure, meanwhile the protoss are forced to build an equally strong army with 2 gateways and that costs them money so they can't tech as fast, if they don't the terran will just fast expand same time keeping you from taking your own expansion because they have mapcontrol. and zergs will have to cut back in drones in order to get enough units.
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On September 16 2010 21:56 SharkSpider wrote:
IMO the only problem with MULES is that you can cast them at other expansions. Mathematically, whenever Terran is holding a gold expansion anywhere, all of their OCs on the map automatically become able to generate twice the income, even if they decided to PF the gold. I've played games where opponents have made massive armies out of less bases and almost entirely mined out mains and nats because they spammed 12 MULES down on a gold expo.
It makes it unwise to take a gold in response to or in advance of having a T do the same, and it forces other races in to agression, possibly against a PF, depending on how close the match is.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a timer, a drop in minerals (270 is pretty high), or maybe even a reduced lifespan if they harvest the more valuable (maybe we could say "harder") gold minerals.
Agreed. Terran are just rewarded so much more than Z and P players for taking a gold. Scouting a T player with a gold and then 5 mins later coming in to attack it, you realise, oh they've mined it out already with mules. -____-"
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On September 16 2010 21:59 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:56 SharkSpider wrote:
IMO the only problem with MULES is that you can cast them at other expansions. Mathematically, whenever Terran is holding a gold expansion anywhere, all of their OCs on the map automatically become able to generate twice the income, even if they decided to PF the gold. I've played games where opponents have made massive armies out of less bases and almost entirely mined out mains and nats because they spammed 12 MULES down on a gold expo.
It makes it unwise to take a gold in response to or in advance of having a T do the same, and it forces other races in to agression, possibly against a PF, depending on how close the match is.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a timer, a drop in minerals (270 is pretty high), or maybe even a reduced lifespan if they harvest the more valuable (maybe we could say "harder") gold minerals. Agreed. Terran are just rewarded so much more than Z and P players for taking a gold. Scouting a T player with a gold and then 5 mins later coming in to attack it, you realise, oh they've mined it out already with mules. -____-"
Agreed it's a big problem that T can call down mules from 3 orbital commands to a MULE...
Maybe they should just put a range restriction on the cast for mule so T can't call MULE from everywhere to everywhere.
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EPT
