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On September 16 2010 17:08 Frack wrote:
It would be interesting if the mule had a cooldown, say 30secs to a minute, but then chrono boost doesnt have a cool down and larva stacks.
But i wouldnt be opposed to a trial period of a cooldown to see how it works.
Larvae doesn't stack. Larvae will be auto-produced up to 3 larvae. And then it stops. Injections can not be missed or you cannot make it up. For example if a terran forgets to mule, as long as he doesn't cap his energy, it's fine since he can just double/triple mule later. You can't double-inject. As soon as those 4 larvae from the inject fall off the hatchery, every second that goes by before the next inject is production time that is forever lost and cannot be made back.
Note, I'm not whining about Zerg versus Terran or anything, just saying... the mechanic is not at all the same. And if the patch notes we've seen are real, I imagine the mule cooldown is to make Terran not so forgiving when missing your mules.
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In uber late game, Mules become stupid, and I think that's meant to be balanced by Terran being "forced" to make Planetary Fortresses to survive in the late game. (They do vs Zerg, but the so-called OMG i lose to Toss once they get to 3bases its unstoppable is because of lack of PF use)
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On September 21 2010 03:54 Karkadinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 03:08 Unentschieden wrote:
"supposedly" being the important work. I actually think that Zerg being to weak is a balancing issue, not a design choice. That more or less sidesteps the whole mobility issue, then, I suppose. I won't strawman you deliberately. 
No, the mobility issue is after all: Did Blizzard make Zergunits relativly slow as drawback of the existance of the creep speed bonus? That is a design desicion like "Siegetanks get huge range and splash but can´t move".
My argument is that no, speedwise all Zergunits expect the Queen and Hydralisk funktion off creep. The speedup on creep is not a necessity to be effective but usefull to be more effective and have a greater Mapcontrol.
On September 21 2010 03:54 Karkadinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 03:08 Unentschieden wrote:
A Hydralisk is almost twice as durable (which increases survivability immensly, especially with the upcoming Tanknerf), half effected by armor, equally fast basemovementspeed (remember, Hydras are the "slow" ones).
There are also plenty of things that are hard or even impossible to compare: what about the necessary investments in infrastructure? Do you think barracks are more effective than hatcherys?
What about the ability to burrow? The natural regeneration? The differences in Upgrades? You apparently missed the 'roughly equal costs' part, because hydralisks are in no way twice as durable for the cost.
In actual survivability I´d actually say that Hydras are better off. They are not as vulnerable to splashdamage and even IF it ends up being a DPS to HP race (no SC2 fight is decided that way) Hydradamageoutput drops half as fast as the Marines
On September 21 2010 03:54 Karkadinn wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's say that two marines = 1 hydralisk. The hydralisk still costs 50 gas in addition to being equal in mineral cost, so it should be moderately slanted towards the Zerg being more powerful.
T1 for marines versus T2 for hydralisks. Marine can match hydralisk's creep speed anywhere he wants with stim.
But in reality you neither always have Medivac, nor do they have limitless energy. You don´t consider the cost in HP for Marine durability or Medivacs for their resource cost.
Also how do you compare "Tiers"? If Marines are T1 because it´s just Barracks they get NO upgrades!
On September 21 2010 03:54 Karkadinn wrote:
Our two marines have 10 more hp even without Combat Shield, with CS puts them at +30 over the hydralisk. Stimming also kicks their DPS over that of the hydralisk, obviously.
If you honestly think burrow, 0.2734 hp regen per second, and a +1 range upgrade make the hydralisk worth 50 gas over the marines, I want some of what you're smokin'.
What about the convenience of coming from the Zerg larvae system? What about the more convenient upgrades? They DO speed up on creep which does matter immensly for their performance.
On September 21 2010 04:03 Karkadinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 03:08 Unentschieden wrote:On September 21 2010 02:36 Karkadinn wrote:On September 21 2010 00:23 Unentschieden wrote:
What, suddenly Terrans have no specific disadvantages anymore? Their Buildings no longer lose HP on their own when in red? Construction can no longer be interrupted by killing the worker? Restoring HP no longer costs resources?
Or to be more specific to MULEs, constructing a OC no longer prevents that OC from becoming a PF or loading in SCVs? They don´t draw from the same energypool as Scan? Wow, those sound like horrible disadvantages. I'm glad my race can use its third backup detection ability without having to sacrifice economy for it! Funny how Blizzard gave each race unique (dis)advantages. It´s like they actually wanted them to be different while being equally powerfull. If you are Protoss your mobile detection method is the one that DOESN`T tell the enemy he is being detected. If you are Zerg your mobile detection doesn´t take up production infrastructure and is the fastest to build. (I apologize if I'm getting the quote nesting mixed up, this is getting pretty thick.) The point of that response was to point out that you can't flaunt a tactical option that other races simply don't have and then point to its limitations and say those count as genuine disadvantages. One person can't do X. You can do X if you want to, but it costs you Z. Having extra options that have costs attached is not a drawback compared to not having those options at all.
Yep, creep is not a disadvantage just because Zerg are slower off it. Terrans and Protoss don´t get any way to speed up their groundforces for approximately nothing. They can´t story production capacity. etc.
To remind you, this is your original statement:
On September 20 2010 23:53 Koukalaka wrote:
So the Zerg/Protoss "specialities" also give them partial negatives, while the Mule really has no negative outset. Especially given there is actually "hardly any" time lost on SCV production, compared to Drone/Probe. Only Probe/Drone production can be "forced out" moreso than SCVs.
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actually, creep is a penalty. you cant use hydras effectivly to attack, cause they will die horribly if they have to retreat. its not that you see a bunch of zealots with speed or whatever and you are like "i guess i retreat and everything is OK!!!!1", you cant use this unit ( best example ) off creep effectively, this is a huge design flaw imo
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On September 21 2010 05:53 in7e.sCream wrote:
actually, creep is a penalty. you cant use hydras effectivly to attack, cause they will die horribly if they have to retreat. its not that you see a bunch of zealots with speed or whatever and you are like "i guess i retreat and everything is OK!!!!1", you cant use this unit ( best example ) off creep effectively, this is a huge design flaw imo
Hydas are not actually slow. At 2.25 off creep they are merely slower than the rest of the Zergforces. That is the same speed as Siegetanks or Immortals, just to bring a few examples. Also, why not bring along a few Overlords to drop creep behind the Hydras? Terrans manage to bring Medivacs along all the Time.
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Unentschieden, I'm not going to spend hours walking through an analysis of every single mechanic in the game to make a point that's already commonly accepted within the community. If you want to grasp at every possible detail in a desperate attempt to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion, that's your business, but I'm not wasting any more time on it.
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On September 21 2010 06:10 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:53 in7e.sCream wrote:
actually, creep is a penalty. you cant use hydras effectivly to attack, cause they will die horribly if they have to retreat. its not that you see a bunch of zealots with speed or whatever and you are like "i guess i retreat and everything is OK!!!!1", you cant use this unit ( best example ) off creep effectively, this is a huge design flaw imo Hydas are not actually slow. At 2.25 off creep they are merely slower than the rest of the Zergforces. That is the same speed as Siegetanks or Immortals, just to bring a few examples. Also, why not bring along a few Overlords to drop creep behind the Hydras? Terrans manage to bring Medivacs along all the Time.
Overlords move at 2.75 now? Awesome.
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in order to put some sense into this discussion, i provide saturation data timings (hastily done and not very precise) with 3 common openers for each race:
tools used: SC2 replay system, my eye,
notes: times are averaged +/- 5 to 10 seconds,
terran build:
10 depot
12 rax
13 refinery
15 OC
15 depot
2:00~
rax and refinery under construction
11 scv
3:00~
3scv on refinery
12 scv on mineral
+1 mule
4:10~
full saturation
protoss build:
9 pylon
12 gateway
14 assimilator
16 (18 with zealot) core
1:40
1 chronoboost 12 probe
2:05~
2 chronoboost 14 probe
2:30~
3 chronoboost 16 probe
transfer 3 to assimilator
13 probe
3:00~
4 chronoboost full saturation
16 probe
zerg build:
10OV 11 ext trick
14 gas
14 pool
essentially 13 drone saturation until 2:10~
(as soon as building is put down, a drone is hatched thanks to timings of build)
transfer 3 drone to extractor
10 drones
2:45~
back to 12 drones (15 queen in this build)
3:50-4:00~
drone production does not begin again until this point because of zerglings
both terran and zerg achieve full saturation at roughly the same point in time, a bit past 4 minutes. if protoss does not chronoboost probes and instead chronoboosts zealots or tech, like many do, protoss will achieve saturation around 4 minutes as well.
but because of the income value of mule, where 1 mule = a little over 3 scv worth of mineral return time, terran technically achieves saturated levels of income at 3:00, or whenever the first mule drops/refinery is complete.
so by these timings, protoss need to chronoboost their nexus to achieve full saturation to match terran economy in the same time frame. zerg have to sacrifice army production to saturate their mineral line. luckily for zerg, their production capacity is limited and the lower drone count can easily take advantage of early game unit production.
lastly, the mule enables the terran to gain approximately 300 additional minerals every 90 seconds, or 200minerals per minute of game time, of which protoss and zerg require an additional expansion with atleast 5 workers (5*40) on minerals to match this bonus - a 650 mineral investment from protoss/550 from zerg and an additional 3 to 4 minutes of mining time to recoup investment, and then the further minute to finally match the bonus themselves.
[mining data can be found on liquipedia. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mule ]
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@a176: you meant optimal saturation, also you dintnt accounted for income disparity starting with first mule, while at that point terran matches toss, his next 4 scv are worth 2 probes of toss income each... and it dosnt stop there
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The power of MULE is a beautiful thing. Make one man weep, and another man sing...
But yeah, it's difficult to know how well it's balanced compared to, say, chrono boost, since over a whole game CB is going to be used for probes, army, and upgrades, whereas a MULE is only going to be used for gathering and possibly emergency field repair. Going back to the OP, a single screenshot of an unknown number of MULEs temporarily making up for a lack of SCVs is hardly sufficient evidence to come to a conclusion that the MULE is overpowered.
Also remember that if a terran has been saving up his energy to dump MULEs at a gold expo, you've had an advantage while he was doing so, since you've been using your energy to get your own workers, larvae, upgrades, and units out faster.
I'm not saying that the MULE doesn't need a change (I'm not nearly qualified to make that statement), but the vitriol in this thread seems way beyond what's actually due.
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On September 21 2010 06:14 Karkadinn wrote:
Unentschieden, I'm not going to spend hours walking through an analysis of every single mechanic in the game to make a point that's already commonly accepted within the community. If you want to grasp at every possible detail in a desperate attempt to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion, that's your business, but I'm not wasting any more time on it.
Then what are you doing in this Thread? The MULE being overpowered is neither accepted nor proven. If it was accepted this Thread wouldn´t be 26 Pages long, if it was proven you could link the proof to shut me up instead of going "It is as I say and I won´t debate no more". By the way, the earth isn´t flat.
On September 21 2010 06:18 Karkadinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 06:10 Unentschieden wrote:On September 21 2010 05:53 in7e.sCream wrote:
actually, creep is a penalty. you cant use hydras effectivly to attack, cause they will die horribly if they have to retreat. its not that you see a bunch of zealots with speed or whatever and you are like "i guess i retreat and everything is OK!!!!1", you cant use this unit ( best example ) off creep effectively, this is a huge design flaw imo Hydas are not actually slow. At 2.25 off creep they are merely slower than the rest of the Zergforces. That is the same speed as Siegetanks or Immortals, just to bring a few examples. Also, why not bring along a few Overlords to drop creep behind the Hydras? Terrans manage to bring Medivacs along all the Time. Overlords move at 2.75 now? Awesome.
Hey that hiatus didn´t last long. Nice to have you back in the discussion.
Shure you can debate the validity of bringing Overlords but I´d expect a bit more than comparing their speed to the Medivac. You know something that at least resembels an attempt at an argument instead of a reflexive rebuttal for the sake of disagreeing.
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On September 21 2010 07:18 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 06:14 Karkadinn wrote:
Unentschieden, I'm not going to spend hours walking through an analysis of every single mechanic in the game to make a point that's already commonly accepted within the community. If you want to grasp at every possible detail in a desperate attempt to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion, that's your business, but I'm not wasting any more time on it. Then what are you doing in this Thread? The MULE being overpowered is neither accepted nor proven.
I was referring to Terran versus Zerg unit cost-efficiency. I chose hydralisk-marine specifically because it's a particularly egregious example. If you think that's up for complete debate then there's no point in even talking about it further because most of the other examples are less blatant and less directly comparable.
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To anyone arguing that increasing the energy cost of the mule would devastate the early game.
What about this
mule is now 75 energy starting energy from an OC is now 100. This means that you can still immediately call down a mule when the OC finishes and your second one will be able to be called down when you accumulate 50 more energy. Now anything after that would be slower. But your main should be saturated by that point in time. And you should be pressing on to take your natural if you haven't already.
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On September 21 2010 08:13 Karkadinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 07:18 Unentschieden wrote:On September 21 2010 06:14 Karkadinn wrote:
Unentschieden, I'm not going to spend hours walking through an analysis of every single mechanic in the game to make a point that's already commonly accepted within the community. If you want to grasp at every possible detail in a desperate attempt to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion, that's your business, but I'm not wasting any more time on it. Then what are you doing in this Thread? The MULE being overpowered is neither accepted nor proven. I was referring to Terran versus Zerg unit cost-efficiency. I chose hydralisk-marine specifically because it's a particularly egregious example. If you think that's up for complete debate then there's no point in even talking about it further because most of the other examples are less blatant and less directly comparable.
Hey I´m not even contesting that point but I´d like a more informative response than "it´s like that because everyone says so". But in the interest of the thread I´d like you to adress the points relevant to the Thread topic instead of just replying to parts of my posts you can easily disagree with.
Honestly, what was the last of your posts containing a fact or an argument? I´m still waiting on at least SOMETHING regarding Overlords other than "They aren´t 2.75MS lol".
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On September 21 2010 06:10 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:53 in7e.sCream wrote:
actually, creep is a penalty. you cant use hydras effectivly to attack, cause they will die horribly if they have to retreat. its not that you see a bunch of zealots with speed or whatever and you are like "i guess i retreat and everything is OK!!!!1", you cant use this unit ( best example ) off creep effectively, this is a huge design flaw imo Hydas are not actually slow. At 2.25 off creep they are merely slower than the rest of the Zergforces. That is the same speed as Siegetanks or Immortals, just to bring a few examples. Also, why not bring along a few Overlords to drop creep behind the Hydras? Terrans manage to bring Medivacs along all the Time.
yup, i love to bring over lords with me with perfect timing over my force, creating a perfect overlord creep placement within 10 second while my army is moving out
i also love how overlords are invulnerable
just makes zerg creep so perfect.....
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I really do not think mules as a unit is in any way OP, and no...im not a terran player. What I do think though is that the mechanic itself is to forgiving. This has probably been stated way to much but then Ill just say it again. A zerg and a terran with quite low apm will not be punished in the same way. Where a zerg just have excess energy he cant spend on anything usefull (creeptumours sure but after you dont need soooo many and a player of lesser skill wont have the apm anyway), the terran though will just use up all his energy and get that huge income boost at once. Therefore I do think the mule should be on a CD, this wont hurt the pro's very much, if at all but the mechanic itself wont be as forgiving as it is now. Sure, you cant save up loads of energy and pump a new expo with loads of mules but really, thats not really something I think terrans should cry about =).
Maybe chronoboost should have the same mechanic, I dont know.
Any opinions about this? I may not have thought this through completly so perhaps im missing something big =)
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Although I cant really join in the debate about hydras since I never ever get em against terran. The reason for that is that from experience it just feels that if the T gets 2-3-4 siegetanks to back up his mm or w/e he goes my hydras are completly negated.
About the creep though, the problem with creep is not that you cant spread it, its very doable with both tumours and OLs BUT its extremly timeconsuming for what you actually get, or rather, for how easy it is to negate. Brining OLs is always a big risk, they arnt free you now and loosing a battle ---> getting supplycapped spells doom. Continuosly spreading your tumours is a must and it takes alot alot of APM to keep that up, especially lategame when you have several highways to manage and one raven, observer or just some good scans completly negate the hundreds of actions youve spent in doing so. I do not say dont spread it, you should (must if you go hydras) but waying that creep is an advantage is abit narrow thinking. Well, dont get me wrong, ofcourse creep is an advantage but is the existance of the mechanic one in the first place? I say no, id rather have my units have speedupgrades, perhaps even have them slower then they would have been on creep even after the upgrades just to get more time to focus on other stuff with my non pro apm. Even though im decently fast, 120-150ish apm at avarage in a long game (spamming included ofcourse but I assume that goes for everyone) I cant seem to keep up with creeping, larvainjecting and multitasking armies.
oftopic but well, I saw some hydra/creep discussion so I just felt like giving my view.
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On September 16 2010 17:22 Sueco wrote:
I REALLY dislike the MULE. Its brute, uninspired, and a cause for all kinds of bullshit T comebacks, like that one.
Logic tells us that if terrans are supposed to get a baseline higher income per saturated mining base, you'd need to make terran units less cost-effective than other units to balance it out. Funnily, T units are among the most cost-effective in the game.
The MULE is somehow involved in the current game balance mess. I for one would like to see it redesigned.
The 2nd week I played beta [when I realized the actual # of extra minerals], I thought it was just in for testing purposes. Unfortunately I still feel the same way, but the problem 'Stims' (HAR HAR FUNNY PUNS) from cost effective units such as the marauder, aka the Dirt cheap 30 second build time all purpose behemoth.
These units can be dealt with in reasonable numbers, however mules allow them to be fueled in excess amounts.
The Mule cooldown (refering to the 'unofficial leaked' patch notes), will help 'some', but 40 second cooldown wont solve the problem of an almost 300 free minerals every 50 energy, that is unmatched by the other races.
But to make this sound somewhat less ranty it does need to be redesigned. The orbital command should be 75 minerals, with a shorter build time. And a mule calldown should grant slightly more minerals than the cost off an extra supply depot (depot cost + lost mining time). Also the supply drop should give increased armor with a little extra health.
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I find it halarious how this thread has morphed back and forth about how the mule is cheap/too effective and crap like that. Face it, Terrans need mules, end of story. The only thing I'm asking as a z player is for a damn cooldown (an argument that has been brought up many times in this thread, but then is ignored and covered with more crap about "mule = 3 workers omg."
Seriously, add the damn cooldown so u don't see 6 mules come down in 5 seconds. We understand that yes, u lost potential minerals, but hear me out. What do u lose when u go over by 25 or even 50 energy? technically nothing, just plop it down and wait less time for the next. How much does zerg lose? A whole spawn larva cycle that can't be regained...yeh z can plop down creep, but terran can also scan with extra energy as well, so those arguments cancel out (b/c frankly, no one wants to argue more about stupid shit).
Please for the love of god, please make the argument push towards cooldown, and once that's established, then u guys can argue about the strength of mules (an argument that I believe is stupid b/c no one will win that argument)
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EPT
