On September 16 2010 17:24 kyarisan wrote: Why can't the orbital command just be... free... but then the mule gives less return?
Because an orbital command has scan too? noone has free detection...and it shouldn´t be free. Mules are kinda op in their current state. Also they are allowing all the terran allins with like 15 scvs where the opponent has to pull his ohn workers and then sit with bad income vs. 4 mule income. In some way they need to be changed but the right way hasn´t come to my mind.
Whether you like it or not, Mules seriously are the only way Terran can keep up with Zerg and Protoss income, without them we'd never catch up.
It's just, later in the game when you have more orbitals or forget to use them for a while, you can call a few down at once and that's more than likely the problem.
I think what they could do, is just have it so only one mule can be out per CC on the field at the same time.
On September 16 2010 17:18 attackfighter wrote: It only mines minerals faster, so while it's powerful it's not going to give the Terran an edge where it counts most - gas. Gas heavy units like collusus, high templar, tanks, ghosts, medivacs and vikings are just so pivotal in TvT, it really overshadows the extra marines/marauders that the mule will get you.
Mules can be super duper good in some situations though; like you noted, they let you maintain a decent income after losing lots of workers, and another major benefit is in the early game when mineral only units are a lot stronger (their counters aren't teched to yet).
Just small correction, you mean PvT, but if you think about it MMM remains good no matter what the Toss is doing. So there is no point in the game when having mules is bad,
In fact, late game, Mules are even better since that's 1 less supply you devote to workers and 1 more devoted to something to kill the other player with.
MULE is the best mineral mechanic on purpose. It's more or less one-dimensional (well, they can repair, but it's not used much and probably not very practical) and it takes away from scans. It takes twice as long to have energy for a MULE as it does for a Chrono Boost (or Larva Inject), and it costs 150 minerals for the Orbital Command (so the first MULE nets you 120-150 minerals as opposed to 270-300).
That Screenshot doesn't really prove much as MorroW may have been saving up/forgetting energy in his Orbitals, and that boost in mineral gain is only temporary.
Chrono Boost can be used to speed up Units and Upgrades, and the Queen is a very good attacking unit, and has other useful support spells.
In BW, Terran had the worst economy as they couldn't "power" SCVs and their workers had to stay put to build something. They always either had less workers (vZ) or lost more mining time (vP).
I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced- I don't actually know (and neither does anyone else outside of Blizzard), but I just wanna make sure all of the cards are on the table before balance discussion even starts. I think it would take a lot more than discussion to "solve" this issue. The only thing I see this topic doing is more stirring up of people who hear something and jump on the bandwagon without thinking about it.
Someone suggested earlier that a player should only be allowed to have 1 MULE at a time per Orbital Command. Makes perfect sense to me. That would be a fairly small change that wouldn't hinder people that are proactive and on the ball about dropping their MULEs. Let's take this small baby step and test it for a month or two and then go from there.
The easiest change which would make the game dramatically more balanced would be to make it so you can only have 1 MULE per Orbital command at a time and make it cost 25 energy. You are then punished for forgetting to call one down a MULE when the first one dissapears and have to do it more, making you change screens.
I honestly can't believe Blizzard thought the MULE and spawn larvae were equally difficult, and Terran macro has almost been optimized as a result.
The Point that many people forget is, that you have to see this as a peek of income. First of all, how many mules did he use? And now think about how long this income will last.
They mine as fast as 3-5 workers(depending on saturation).
Huk's main has mineral fields missing, so it's almost mined out => a lot of the workers weren't doing anything. Morrow isn't mining gas, while huk has 12 workers on gas and he also likely called down multiple mules at once, which creates a burst in his income, but obviously he can't constantly have 4 mules mining with just 2 OCs.
Nerf suggest 1: Command center should be able to upgrade to EITHER an orbital command which have scans, OR a harvesting station which has mules.
Both can upgrade to planetary fortress.
Alternative Nerf suggest 2:
On September 16 2010 17:31 Piy wrote: The easiest change which would make the game dramatically more balanced would be to make it so you can only have 1 MULE per Orbital command at a time and make it cost 25 energy. You are then punished for forgetting to call one down a MULE when the first one dissapears and have to do it more, making you change screens..
I think each OC should have a cool down on mules. Even if its 10 seconds. This would level out the huge spike in income that Terrans can get. It would also stop Terrans from exploiting mass mules on the gold mineral patches. I think that the Terran that never forgets to Mule should get the maximum income, and the Terran who only does his Mules every 3 minutes should get less income.
On September 16 2010 17:31 Dekker wrote: The Point that many people forget is, that you have to see this as a peek of income. First of all, how many mules did he use? And now think about how long this income will last.
So what that it is the peak of his income. Playing Z or P if you lost ton of workers then it's pretty much gg, cause you have no income.
On 3+ bases terran can lose all his scvs and he has still decent chances of winning.
Mules themselves aren't the problem, its just that unlike the other two macro abilities (well at least inject) OB's are extremely forgiving, meaning that even if you dont keep up with your macro you can immediately recover due to popping two or three mules at once. I like the 1 active mule / cc at once idea however am not at a high level so not really my place to call for changes.
Mules are fucken ridonkulous. Watch when they save up energy and drop 12 mules on to a gold expansion. Seriously, I once rushed a terran and killed almost every single SCV he had and 5 mins later he raped me with 20 marauder.
Why does blizzard make all terran units so unbelievably good?
EPT
