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On September 16 2010 17:30 johanngrunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:18 attackfighter wrote:
It only mines minerals faster, so while it's powerful it's not going to give the Terran an edge where it counts most - gas. Gas heavy units like collusus, high templar, tanks, ghosts, medivacs and vikings are just so pivotal in TvT, it really overshadows the extra marines/marauders that the mule will get you.
Mules can be super duper good in some situations though; like you noted, they let you maintain a decent income after losing lots of workers, and another major benefit is in the early game when mineral only units are a lot stronger (their counters aren't teched to yet). Just small correction, you mean PvT, but if you think about it MMM remains good no matter what the Toss is doing. So there is no point in the game when having mules is bad, In fact, late game, Mules are even better since that's 1 less supply you devote to workers and 1 more devoted to something to kill the other player with.
Yeah but they melt to storms and collusus, and the only way to counter those units is with gas units of your own, so MM are beneficial but not usually the deciding factor in battles.
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I dislike Mules. Terran can survive on fewer bases for too long.
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not news2me at all. I've seen players come back with no scv's at all and only 2 obc's...
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another terran OP thread? of all the things people tend to complain about, mule is really not that much of a gamebreaker. zerg can cover half the map in creep for christ sake.
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Yeah, and that boosts ther income how exactly?
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On September 16 2010 17:23 klauz619 wrote:
They don't magically pop up minerals and just make you mine out faster, it's just 300 minerals sped up to you.
SCVs do the exact same thing. They merely give you minerals faster. As in, that's extremely important.
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Mules are fucken ridonkulous. Watch when they save up energy and drop 12 mules on to a gold expansion. Seriously, I once rushed a terran and killed almost every single SCV he had and 5 mins later he raped me with 20 marauder.
12 mules over the course of the game would have been better than all at once as your economy rises exponentially.
Also 12 mules at the same time in a gold expansion means you waste precious mule efficiency.
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This is thread is stupid, all that shows is that the mule mechanic is far more forgiving than chrono or larva because you can spam them all at once lategame and get that 2-3 min of crazy injection.
More forgiving, definitely. OP? No.
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I think a good solution would be to decrease the Orbital Command energy to 125. That way Terran players are actually punished for forgetting to MULE, but it also gives them the ability to store scans for cloaked units without losing any energy regen.
Of course, that doesn't effect that actual power of a singular MULE, but I think a large part of the problem is the forgiving nature of the Terran macro mechanic. It would be a step in the right direction.
I don't think solutions like forcing a single MULE at a time are particularly elegant personally. It would be better to stick with the same mechanic but change harvesting rate/time/energy cost.
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On September 16 2010 17:22 Demand2k wrote:
If Morrow didn't have enough energy for that many mules, he probably wouldn't have lost the battle as he'd have more units prior to the battle. Anyone can throw down six mules at once after they've neglected them for ages.
I was wondering about this too. . .1 mule isn't enough to give that much of an econ boost. Morrow shouldn't have had that much energy built up in the first place and after his mule time is out his intake went down i'm sure.
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It's pretty dumb when people compare the three races. Chrono boost is also pretty good, but it's less obvious.
This is the equivalent to just saving up 200/200 chronoboost and making a ton of units really fast. Yes it seems very good, but it would've been better to just use it earlier.
I do see a problem late game where the Terran can just summon 10 mules at a gold expo, but you cant just directly compare races, you'd have to take EVERYTHING into account.
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On September 16 2010 18:04 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +Mules are fucken ridonkulous. Watch when they save up energy and drop 12 mules on to a gold expansion. Seriously, I once rushed a terran and killed almost every single SCV he had and 5 mins later he raped me with 20 marauder. 12 mules over the course of the game would have been better than all at once as your economy rises exponentially. Also 12 mules at the same time in a gold expansion means you waste precious mule efficiency.
Unlike scvs, up to 2 mules can mine the same patch at the same time, so despite their longer mining time 12 mules at a gold expo is still at max efficiency. They use the same ai as scvs, so the mules will automatically split to one per patch, even though that's actually detrimental, but if you have more than one per patch, they will start "doublemining".
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Hyrule19151 Posts
MULEs are on a timer.
Also, enough with Terran OP threads. They are getting old.
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I watched that entire game myself and was pissed off on how resilient MorroW was despite being in such a terrible position. This reminds of me games like BratOK vs Mondragon, 10 scv vs 80 drone zerg and 10scv ends up winning. Something just has to change I think, perhaps making the mule much like spawn larvae, punishing terrans for forgetting to mule for a few seconds.
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People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings. T also can't chronoboost out probes or pump drones 7 at a time per base every 40 secs(when its safe) 
Edit : that said, I do believe adding a cooldown for MULE definitly won't hurt. That way forgetting it will hurt you, but since you also need energy for scans and you can supply drop with extra energy it's not overly punishing to not do it (similar to zerg being able to transfuse low hp muta or adding a creep tumor when their macro slips)
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What you don't realize often is that in SC2, you reach full saturation on 1base pretty quick. The only point where Protoss has an income advantage vs terran is during the first 4-5 minutes of the game. As you move towards full saturation, terran is going to mine more minerals than you every subsequent minute because of the MULE.
The terran macro mechanic promotes aggression with very little economical punishment.
As long as terran can keep Protoss on 1base vs 1base, they will win.
As long as terran can keep being aggressive vs zerg they can match the zerg's income on 2bases with 1base MULE, and then surpass the zerg when they lift out their second Orbital Command to the expo (even if it's a really late expo after 11-12 minutes).
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On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings
People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings
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On September 16 2010 19:24 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings
I direct you 1 sentence further in that quote for the answer to that
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On September 16 2010 17:08 Frack wrote:
larva stacks.
What? That is completely false. Spawn Larvae can be used once per hatchery, it does not stack.
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On September 16 2010 19:24 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 19:14 eNbee wrote:
People seem to forget terrans lose mining time by constructing buildings People seem to forget that zergs lose their workers by constructing buildings
Way to only read half his post.
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EPT
