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On September 15 2010 03:57 dudeman001 wrote:
Based on those numbers alone, there are more than twice as many Terran players that Protoss players, and about 3.6 Terran players for each Zerg player. Doesn't it make sense that in a league with similarly skilled players, there are naturally more high-point Terran players than Zerg players? Absolutely. As cuppatea said, it's nearly impossible to keep track of every player entering the tournaments sofar. But from the breakdown of Diamond league players, there's an obscene amount of Terran players, it's only natural that they're the ones flooding these tournaments and winning for the Terran race.
If there are 3.6 high-level terrans for every zerg player, and 10+ tournament-winning terrans for every tournament-winning zerg, then that is a trend.
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On September 15 2010 02:38 FlamingTurd wrote:
Wow... these statistics r exactly what I knew the balance was like all along... no surprise, just really, really, really sad.
Dont blame the balance, blame the skill! 
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On September 15 2010 03:49 Arm4n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 03:39 Zog wrote:
- Korean Zergs are OP : If the game asks for 200 apm instead of 100 apm to be balanced, I think it's safe to say there's a problem of balance. So there's no reason to look at what happens in Korea.
hold on hold on... what do you people think happens in korea? look at the god damn gsl if you want to know what happens in korea.
I'm not debating if Korean Zergs are really OP or not, I'm just saying that EU + US results are enough to get a conclusion.
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koreans just have another style, terrans mostly play bio, and they focus on micro.
but we have seen TLO and how to crush a korean zerg as he has to face a metal army.
i follow the GSL and most of tha games are just crap... (hope they will get better in the further rounds)
this statistic just comes from the fact that zerg has a hard time to fend of all-in timing-pushes, especially if you dont scout them early or due to the short distance of the map, like steppes of war or sth.
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On September 15 2010 03:57 dudeman001 wrote:
Next, we look at how many pages of players you get when you search for Diamond players in North America by race.
Zerg: 78
Protoss: 116
Terran: 281
Based on those numbers alone, there are more than twice as many Terran players that Protoss players, and about 3.6 Terran players for each Zerg player.
Huh, there are 101 pages of terran, not 281.
116 P, 101 T, 78 Z
Total: 336
So... yeah, there goes your point.
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On September 15 2010 03:57 dudeman001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 03:30 ensis wrote:
ok,
another really splendid argument seems to be, that the winratio seems to be pretty equal in ladder.
yeah, it is, but what does it tell?
it says that a 1k diamond terran has the same ratio as a 1k zerg. but that only means, that he wins just as much, and not is equally skilled.
there are skilled terran players, no doubt. but here comes the reason why every tournament is featuring a high amount of terrans in upper stages. a terran with less skill can defeat a protoss or zerg with more skill. again, therefore they are ranked the same in ladder. but a terran of similar skill ownz the hell out of every toss or zerg with similar skill level. and thats why tournaments are dominated by terran.
this also would implie that there are more terrans in the upper ranks like 1.3k-1.8k, which you can easily check on the sc2-ranks page.
just an example
take that 1k terran. if we assume that the game was balanced, then that 1k terran was as skilled as the equally rated protoss. this would go all the way through. that means in every league there would be the same amount of terrans as the distribution of the races would imply.
is this the case? no!
there are way more terran players on the top, even though protoss is as far as i know the most played race.
so take that 1k terran again. now we assume, that the game was imbalanced in terrans favor. this would make this 1k terran win vs. his 1k toss and zerg brothers. now he is 1.2k. does he have another win ratio? no!
but that would also imply that more terrans were to be found in the higher ranks.
is this the case? YES!
I went to sc2 ranks to look at a few numbers, and here's what I found. First, we're going to assume that players of Diamond skill level (whether it be top or bottom of Diamond) are capable of hitting diamond league and aren't stuck in Platinum. Next, we look at how many pages of players you get when you search for Diamond players in North America by race. Zerg: 78 Protoss: 116 Terran: 281Based on those numbers alone, there are more than twice as many Terran players that Protoss players, and about 3.6 Terran players for each Zerg player. Doesn't it make sense that in a league with similarly skilled players, there are naturally more high-point Terran players than Zerg players? Absolutely. As cuppatea said, it's nearly impossible to keep track of every player entering the tournaments sofar. But from the breakdown of Diamond league players, there's an obscene amount of Terran players, it's only natural that they're the ones flooding these tournaments and winning for the Terran race.
http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/diamond/1/terran/points/0
http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/diamond/1/protoss/points/0
zerg has a little bug, but it works till about page 190
you looked propably wrong, if this is the same site were talking about, and you look at the global data, its that way, toss>terran>zerg 284>245>190 on diamond.
the diamond league itself is pretty interesting though, especially in the upper regions
http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/diamond/1
60% terran top 5 and top 10
and then its going down abit, although protoss is most played.
and btw. because the imblalance as already stated severel times is not something that shows itself in one specific strategy, so it´s just not abusable for anyone, only for higher players, lets say at about 1k diamond you should be able to feel it.
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On September 14 2010 03:02 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I love threads like this
it boosts my self esteem every time I see someone who knows absolutely nothing about elementary statistics make some conclusion with insufficient evidence
And it boosts my self esteem every time an armchair statistician thinks that these increasingly large samples mean absolutely nothing. How many tests is it going to take before you deniers finally admit there is a problem? Do you see yet? That is the problem. No matter what evidence there is you will never be satisfied.
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The cold hard fact is that terran has over twice as many viable play styles as any other race, therefore it is easier to win because your opponent can't possibly counter them all in the same game. As long as you prevent scouting for a couple minutes (and any casual level terran can manage this) you will stomp all over any zerg regardless of his skill level.
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Granted that most of the statistics out there are not conclusive, they do seem to hint that Zerg needs a boost. The only thing I can think of that might suggest otherwise is that the percentage of Zerg increases for each league up. In other words, 17.14% (Bronze), 19.79% , 19.93%, 20.47%, 23.79% (Diamond). However this could be for other reasons. If anything, Blizzard need to improve Zergs appeal one way or another. Hopefully we don't have to wait for the expansion pack for this to happen, but most likely we will.
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i know zerg has won a lot more than that... you HAVE to be missing a lot of tournaments. Nice start though.
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the tournament winners is a very good statistic to follow conversely the ladder is probably the dumbest stats to follow. the ladder at 1k+ diamond is filled with bullshit gimmicks and cheese for the most part.
when you start hitting about 1200+ is when you see a lot of macro games usually but thats not the majority of the top 200. there are plenty of people i know that came from war3 or WoW that are 1k+ because they a few gimmicky rush builds. they know nothing about macro and would break down in a 3-4 base game.
the ladder will clear up in a few months and the people that are really skilled will be left at the top and the guys using 4 gate every game or bbs will slowly drop and hopefully go play another game.
the ladder isn't a good indication of the balance of a game. the highest level of play you can see the imbalance. i've had 1300-1500 terrans do that 5 rax reaper build into marauder push on me.
there are certain situations when it almost feels like as soon as i scout it i want to leave the game because for example on metal or LT in close positions the terran retains map control until mutas come out and your 3rd is so late... you know what i'm not going to finish describing this i'll put myself out there. if you're high level diamond terran and you want to know what 5 rax reaper feels like in close positions on LT/metal PM me and we'll setup a custom game.
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On September 15 2010 04:31 Pwere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 03:57 dudeman001 wrote:
Next, we look at how many pages of players you get when you search for Diamond players in North America by race.
Zerg: 78
Protoss: 116
Terran: 281
Based on those numbers alone, there are more than twice as many Terran players that Protoss players, and about 3.6 Terran players for each Zerg player. Huh, there are 101 pages of terran, not 281. 116 P, 101 T, 78 Z Total: 336 So... yeah, there goes your point.
http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/us/diamond/1/terran/points/0 I don't know why but the number of pages has fluctuated for me from 281 to 230 and during the process of writing this post it jumped down to 101. Obviously what I was looking at before was bugged somehow, and the numbers I got before were completely messed up. That being said my previous post is now worthless and so pretty much disregard it completely.
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On September 15 2010 04:56 Arm4n wrote:
the tournament winners is a very good statistic to follow conversely the ladder is probably the dumbest stats to follow. the ladder at 1k+ diamond is filled with bullshit gimmicks and cheese for the most part.
when you start hitting about 1200+ is when you see a lot of macro games usually but thats not the majority of the top 200. there are plenty of people i know that came from war3 or WoW that are 1k+ because they a few gimmicky rush builds. they know nothing about macro and would break down in a 3-4 base game.
the ladder will clear up in a few months and the people that are really skilled will be left at the top and the guys using 4 gate every game or bbs will slowly drop and hopefully go play another game.
the ladder isn't a good indication of the balance of a game. the highest level of play you can see the imbalance. i've had 1300-1500 terrans do that 5 rax reaper build into marauder push on me.
there are certain situations when it almost feels like as soon as i scout it i want to leave the game because for example on metal or LT in close positions the terran retains map control until mutas come out and your 3rd is so late... you know what i'm not going to finish describing this i'll put myself out there. if you're high level diamond terran and you want to know what 5 rax reaper feels like in close positions on LT/metal PM me and we'll setup a custom game.
and in what tournament of all heavens do you not see cheese?????
just watch those freaking koreans play!!!!
or watch huk, i feel like everytime huk is playing 50% of his games end in early-midgame.
at least day[9] said, that on tournaments people tend to cheese more, because its only about winning and not about training the macro-game.
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On September 15 2010 05:11 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 04:56 Arm4n wrote:
the tournament winners is a very good statistic to follow conversely the ladder is probably the dumbest stats to follow. the ladder at 1k+ diamond is filled with bullshit gimmicks and cheese for the most part.
when you start hitting about 1200+ is when you see a lot of macro games usually but thats not the majority of the top 200. there are plenty of people i know that came from war3 or WoW that are 1k+ because they a few gimmicky rush builds. they know nothing about macro and would break down in a 3-4 base game.
the ladder will clear up in a few months and the people that are really skilled will be left at the top and the guys using 4 gate every game or bbs will slowly drop and hopefully go play another game.
the ladder isn't a good indication of the balance of a game. the highest level of play you can see the imbalance. i've had 1300-1500 terrans do that 5 rax reaper build into marauder push on me.
there are certain situations when it almost feels like as soon as i scout it i want to leave the game because for example on metal or LT in close positions the terran retains map control until mutas come out and your 3rd is so late... you know what i'm not going to finish describing this i'll put myself out there. if you're high level diamond terran and you want to know what 5 rax reaper feels like in close positions on LT/metal PM me and we'll setup a custom game. and in what tournament of all heavens do you not see cheese????? just watch those freaking koreans play!!!! or watch huk, i feel like everytime huk is playing 50% of his games end in early-midgame. at least day[9] said, that on tournaments people tend to cheese more, because its only about winning and not about training the macro-game.
you see a lot of cheese right now because the game isn't as developed as broodwar. also, you might see cheese from pro gamers in tournaments but thats part of the meta game for them. the people on the ladder i'm talking about i mean just go look at Affect the guy from TL. this guy has BBS'd like 60-70% of his games to get to the rating hes at.
there are a lot of people like him on the ladder. the difference is the pros can back it up with actual skill and these guys can't.
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On September 15 2010 04:53 starcraft911 wrote:
i know zerg has won a lot more than that... you HAVE to be missing a lot of tournaments. Nice start though.
This is for tournaments sense release. Ever sense july 27'th zerg has barely won any tournaments at all which is true.
Not going to give my opinion on balance or anything just wanted to throw that out there for you.
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On September 15 2010 04:22 Zog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 03:49 Arm4n wrote:On September 15 2010 03:39 Zog wrote:
- Korean Zergs are OP : If the game asks for 200 apm instead of 100 apm to be balanced, I think it's safe to say there's a problem of balance. So there's no reason to look at what happens in Korea.
hold on hold on... what do you people think happens in korea? look at the god damn gsl if you want to know what happens in korea. I'm not debating if Korean Zergs are really OP or not, I'm just saying that EU + US results are enough to get a conclusion.
Korean Zergs are losing. that is what is happening in GSL. ^^
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On September 14 2010 05:52 godzillathrilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 05:44 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Yeah... I'm pretty sure Morrow is the best in the world. Certainly the best foreigner, only IdrA could be second. Foreigners in Korea will always be better than those outside it because they play much better players on average, whereas MorroW racking up lower-skill cups doesn't even equate.
IEM isn't a small cup.., and Morrow beat both IdrA and TLO there, two foreigners in Korea.
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cmon, guys! Zerg are fine!!!
...someone said there would be a patch mid-September... What's today... anyone?
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i was under the impression that idra was the best sc2 player around right now
thats probably because he won king of the beta, but now i realize thats too old of an account to accurately depict who the best is, especially since idra apparently doesn't even make this list
then again, i don't play sc2, much less follow the highly competitive scene
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I think whoever wins the GSL is gonna be pretty widely regarded as top SC2 player in the world.
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EPT
