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On September 14 2010 23:34 FindingPride wrote:
Because you cannot attack them at anypoint once they get mutas before an army of 160-200.
Wrong. You can attack the Z at any time and he'll have to stop harassing with Mutas to face your army. If the Z decided to base trade, he'll lose because Mutas take forever to kill buildings. If he decided to face your army, Mutas are useless versus Marine/Thor so the chances are T will win the fight.
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On September 15 2010 01:34 LittleeD wrote:
I was hoping for something more detailed, like cronoligicly sorting all tournamets ( names given) since the release and by it's winner. This really doesn't say me much. I want to know WHAT morrow has won, not how many times. Well, thanks for (almost) nothing.
Shit, sorry man.
I did compile this list entirely for your benefit so you have no idea how much it not meeting your requirements upsets me. I'm sorry to have failed you this time but in future if there is any information that is easily available to you but you can't be bothered looking up yourself just let me know and I'll be right on it.
In the mean time, here are the sources:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/events.php
In a few hours, when you finish dating all of the individual tournaments and arranging them in chronological order just drop me a PM and I'll add it to the OP.
Thanks.
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On September 15 2010 01:56 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 01:34 LittleeD wrote:
I was hoping for something more detailed, like cronoligicly sorting all tournamets ( names given) since the release and by it's winner. This really doesn't say me much. I want to know WHAT morrow has won, not how many times. Well, thanks for (almost) nothing. Shit, sorry man. I did compile this list entirely for your benefit so you have no idea how much it not meeting your requirements upsets me. I'm sorry to have failed you this time but in future if there is any information that is easily available to you but you can't be bothered looking up yourself just let me know and I'll be right on it. In the mean time, here are the sources: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagueshttp://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/events.phpIn a few hours, when you finish dating all of the individual tournaments and arranging them in chronological order just drop me a PM and I'll add it to the OP. Thanks.
+1 respect. Well said.
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On September 15 2010 01:56 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 01:34 LittleeD wrote:
I was hoping for something more detailed, like cronoligicly sorting all tournamets ( names given) since the release and by it's winner. This really doesn't say me much. I want to know WHAT morrow has won, not how many times. Well, thanks for (almost) nothing. Shit, sorry man. I did compile this list entirely for your benefit so you have no idea how much it not meeting your requirements upsets me. I'm sorry to have failed you this time but in future if there is any information that is easily available to you but you can't be bothered looking up yourself just let me know and I'll be right on it. In the mean time, here are the sources: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagueshttp://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/events.phpIn a few hours, when you finish dating all of the individual tournaments and arranging them in chronological order just drop me a PM and I'll add it to the OP. Thanks.
You did the OP, it's your job to do it right. Really all this says is that morrow knows how to abuse Terran well and that it's a joke of a race. What's interesting here (by default) is to know how big the variation of tournaments has been and who won which (so you can compare whether it was a big tournament or not)
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OP I like your research and the effort you made to compile this list. Obviously people start running to particular assumptions immediately. What I'd like to see if the number of Zergs entering these tournaments compared to the number of Protosses (and more importantly) & Terrans. I've only looked at 2 tournaments myself before posting this so I don't look like a dumbass, but the last 2 wolf cups have only had between 10-15 Zergs sign up out of a total of 64 competitors. If someone provides evidence that equal numbers of Zergs, Terrans and Protosses are signed up for tournaments, imo this thread will hold a lot more merit to the idea of imbalance.
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On September 15 2010 02:19 LittleeD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 01:56 cuppatea wrote:On September 15 2010 01:34 LittleeD wrote:
I was hoping for something more detailed, like cronoligicly sorting all tournamets ( names given) since the release and by it's winner. This really doesn't say me much. I want to know WHAT morrow has won, not how many times. Well, thanks for (almost) nothing. Shit, sorry man. I did compile this list entirely for your benefit so you have no idea how much it not meeting your requirements upsets me. I'm sorry to have failed you this time but in future if there is any information that is easily available to you but you can't be bothered looking up yourself just let me know and I'll be right on it. In the mean time, here are the sources: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagueshttp://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/events.phpIn a few hours, when you finish dating all of the individual tournaments and arranging them in chronological order just drop me a PM and I'll add it to the OP. Thanks. You did the OP, it's your job to do it right. Really all this says is that morrow knows how to abuse Terran well and that it's a joke of a race. What's interesting here (by default) is to know how big the variation of tournaments has been and who won which (so you can compare whether it was a big tournament or not)
He did an OP the way he wanted, and it is a quality post, it is not his job to make the OP into what every demanding little kid wants it to be. If you want that data, go gather it yourself, the OP even offered to put it in the main post for ease of viewing for everyone else!
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Morrow plays frequently in the Viking Cup, which features only Nordic players. (unfair statistic) If you can list where each win was from, I would give the list more credit.
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this game itself is imbalanced and that;s a fact!!!!
prove?
blizzard will nerf both terran and protoss in the next patch, and i can bet my life on this!
would you dare say otherwise?
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On September 15 2010 01:18 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 01:14 IdrA wrote:On September 15 2010 00:34 Gunman_csz wrote:On September 15 2010 00:20 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 15 2010 00:03 Sqq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 23:56 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 14 2010 23:51 Sqq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 23:31 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 23:29 Sqq wrote:On September 14 2010 23:26 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 23:01 kataa wrote:You really think Idra and Dimaga wouldn't fair better in tournaments at the moment if they race switched to Terran? It's like asking what you'd rather have in a gunfight, a blunderbuss or an AK47.
they would do ALOT better if they switched to terran. but i think they also play the game for fun and not just to win and switching race might be great but blizzard has already stated that the new patch is coming and i think thats what keeping them on the zerg side, still some hope left i guess im sure idra would demolish me if we reversed race 1x1 and im pretty confident in saying idra would be top notch tvt level after just 2 weeks, dimaga would take longer time because he was zerg in sc1. idra was just that much better than everyone else in sc1 and that skill transfers, im sure of it ) i just hate that i must see everyone blame balance when its so obvious when the terran user just happens to be more skilled than the zerg. i talk to ret after a metalopolis game and we search for flaws in his play, we find them and he is happy to say he did mistakes, this he can improve. (we also find mistakes in my play obviously but thats not what i talk about) yes its imba and yes he would still lose even if he didnt do those mistakes because its imba but my point is that its so healthy mind set that he can find mistakes in his play even if he lose because of the imba. madfrog is another great example who i been talking to some. these players i have much respect for just for that reason, they can split the difference when they make mistakes and when its imbalanced. but 99% of zergs just say imba imba even after they make these huge blunders when it was really just their mistake costing them the game and these are the players that wont be good top level even after the game gets balanced The problem with mistakes is its so unforgiving when you do them with Zerg, but with Terran you can do rather huge mistakes and its still very forgiving. whats your point? my point is that there are players who say its imba always and there are players who sometimes say "i did a mistake" and sometimes say "ok something is wrong here". and there are TONS more players that just scream imba at everything. madfrog and ret did so well in previous games so they have this beautiful mind set of improving their game while other mediocre players are just pissing me off with their bs My point is you might be doing as many if not more mistakes playing Terran, as someone playing Zerg, but seing as your race forgives mistakes so easily its not as clear and out there for people to show. Forgot larva injest ? Your screwed. Forgot to call down mule ? Oh nevermind me, ill just throw down 5. As a Zerg player you need to play a near 100% game to even stand a chance against people like yourself. But as a Terran you don't need to be anywhere near as perfect in your executions. Any timing attack is just an added bonus. I remember watching the IEM and actually agreeing with your view on it, if its there to exploite than go for it, but after watching more and more tournaments its getting to the point where i dont care if I tune in because it will be some above mediocre player playing Terran vs a decent zerg \ protoss, and its the same borefest. Terran is so forgiving coupled with all their small advantages (easy scouting, easy expansion defense, easy air defense, etc). From a spectating perspective TvT is the only fun match up where a T is involved, TvZ and TvP is bloody aweful. Also look at the groups at the IEM NY. 1 pure T group and poor Artosises group. Half of those players wouldn't be anywhere near events like IEM if the Terran race wasn't so strong and forgiving. yes terran is a big newbfriendly race. i wish they made them easier and ive been saying that for months. first week of beta i wished the entire game to get easier. and this is why i almost wanna switch race, because i miss the challenge from sc1 and from what ive heard ppl say zerg is the hardest race but they might just be mixing that up with bad. zerg doesnt look too hard to play either, sure the macro mechanics of queen is harder than the orbital command, but other than that its even battlefield imo played toss 2 days, that race wasnt harder than terran even tho many said terran is this big newbfriendly race i think in the future if u miss mule calldowns it will be unforgiving just like miss larva inject. larva inject is alot more clear to see when its forgotten Even battlefield ? As a Zerg myself I'm playing blindly against a walled of Terran, and he can tech switch so easily. When playing zerg you need to go down certain tech paths, but as Terran you can easily switch techs thanks to a 50\50 and 50\25 tech buildings. Even Protoss has a hard time tech switching, and most Protosses has just ignored DTs even tho they where so strong in BW. the cost and time to get there is so extremly hard while fighting. While Terran will throw down Barrack, Factory, Starport in every game, and with the magic touch of flying your buildings around you open tech paths so easily. In general Terran is to easy and forgiving. Its basically impossible to get caught out tech wise as a Terran. All buildings bar Fusion Core \ Ghost Acadamy will be thrown down anyways as its normal. The race is to forgiving in all aspects and need to have some punishing elements to teching like Zerg and Protoss has. i was talking about which race is harder to play and i was saying macroing with the queen mechanic is harder than the orbital command mechanic, but in general i think all 3 races are about as hard to play (should call it as easy if u compare to sc1) JulyZerg's comments : Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that " I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly." He added that "I'm currently the first place in my Diamond League, and I'm over 1500 points of course sc1 was harder thats not even up for debate yeah, it was probably mistranslated or something. he probably meant to say that it's harder for zerg against the other races compared to sc1.
A lot of people seem to think BW was by nature a harder game than SC2 and that just impossible to ever prove.
What was infinitely harder about BW was the way the game itself functioned, the infastructure itself made it hard to play the game. Notice there's a difference between the difficulty of playing the game and the difficulty of the game. Automine, MBS, smart-targeting, grouped spell-use, all these are things that make SC2 easier to make function than SC2. They make the game easier to play, they don't make the game itself any easier.
Walking a dog isn't a very difficult concept. I'm pretty sure just about anyone on this forum would be able to complete the task of say.. walking a dog 10 blocks. Now what if I told you that to walk that dog 10 blocks you'd be required to use a 100 yard rope constructed of silly string, and the dog is on roller skates.. walking that dog just got a lot fucking harder didn't it?
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Wow... these statistics r exactly what I knew the balance was like all along... no surprise, just really, really, really sad.
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On September 15 2010 02:24 dudeman001 wrote:
OP I like your research and the effort you made to compile this list. Obviously people start running to particular assumptions immediately. What I'd like to see if the number of Zergs entering these tournaments compared to the number of Protosses (and more importantly) & Terrans. I've only looked at 2 tournaments myself before posting this so I don't look like a dumbass, but the last 2 wolf cups have only had between 10-15 Zergs sign up out of a total of 64 competitors. If someone provides evidence that equal numbers of Zergs, Terrans and Protosses are signed up for tournaments, imo this thread will hold a lot more merit to the idea of imbalance.
I agree the racial breakdown of entrants would be useful information to have (and thanks for the polite request, unlike a few others!) but it just wasn't possible. I mean, every Go4SC2 Cup has 1024 entrants and their races aren't listed on the website. I'd literally have to spend hours typing names into sc2ranks.com just to find the player races for one of those tournaments.
There's a lot of information that would be a good addition to the list but most of it would take hours to gather and this was something I just decided to post after counting up the tournament winners to satisfy my own curiosity.
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now if only they would release patch 1.1 and then we can start counting the wins and data like this again... Though i still feel that its going to be similar but there should be a few more P and Z wins maybe... but still skewed in favor of terran.
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On September 14 2010 20:38 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 20:22 dacthehork wrote:On September 14 2010 20:15 Deadlyfish wrote:On September 14 2010 19:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:On September 14 2010 19:51 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 19:37 Pekkz wrote:On September 14 2010 18:58 CScythe wrote:On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote:
who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality. I would take it even further, and say that I even think idra could take Morrow in TvT if you gave him few days to practice. Could be wrong, but its totally possible  Lol you are delusional. Are you seriously saying that Idra would be able to beat the worlds best terrans with a few days practice, people that have been practiced TvT heavily for months now? Also Idra's playing style does not suit terran good at all, so he would have to change a lot of the fundamentals that he uses as zerg. As much as you people believe it, he isn't God. In a week he for sure could, actually. He won't do it though because of GSL but after this GSL I wouldnt be too surprised if IdrA switched to T. Patch won't change much... I dont think IdrA can get any better than he is right now, even if he switches race. IdrA likes heavy macro, no cheese and very defensive the first 10-20 mins of the game, so Terran wouldnt fit him very well. Zerg and IdrA is the perfect match. I think Dimaga could play terran quite well though, but not enough to beat the top ones, i think that would require alot more practice. actually that's pretty much how you have to play zerg unless Terran gets greedy and doesn't wall. Pretty much any aggressive play by Zerg early relies on Terran playing greedy (not walling). It's true though that a lot of terran don't wall so it can work, it just is not reliable in any way. Really list a decent aggressive play that zerg can do in SC2 with any reliability in ZvT. There is no muta harass in SC2, missile turrets basically nullify them, roaches can be outranged by proper building placement, lings.... wall ins. They have no options besides going a crazy all in and hoping the opponent hasn't learned barracks/factory wall ins. It's very obvious to any Terran how dominate / easy to understand the matchup is, because you can literally force zerg into a maximum of like 2-3 choices. Know how many options zerg has if you go five rax reaper? It takes about 20 games played to see pretty much everything zerg can possibly do. Anyone that plays terran, unless retarded, understands TvZ better than any other matchup. Alot of the Korean zergs are very aggresive and i've seen alot of cool 1 base builds. I've never seen IdrA win a game that was less than 20mins long i think, it's really rare. But who knows, maybe he could get good at doing 1 base builds and cheesing abit.
no, you've seen a lot of 1 base gimmicks not builds.
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On September 15 2010 00:17 Sqq wrote:
Where you have to perfectly balance the drone production against the army producation. A small error there and your screwed. Late game your point gets valid, but anytime before that it feels more like a handicap than anything else.
I don't understand why people complain about tech switch in TvZ. If anything Z tech switch easier compare to other races. Sure you have to make a choice between workers and army but it has always been the case since BW. That is how Idra is such a good player because he knows how to survive on small army and droning up until saturation. Don't you agree that when a Terran build 5 rax he is going bio? If he has 4 factories then he is meching. Just some general examples. When Terran scan Z he can see all the tech but if he didn't scan the actual army he would not know your composition. If you say it is a problem in scouting then I agree but blaming imba based on tech switch is just absurd.
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ok,
another really splendid argument seems to be, that the winratio seems to be pretty equal in ladder.
yeah, it is, but what does it tell?
it says that a 1k diamond terran has the same ratio as a 1k zerg. but that only means, that he wins just as much, and not is equally skilled.
there are skilled terran players, no doubt. but here comes the reason why every tournament is featuring a high amount of terrans in upper stages. a terran with less skill can defeat a protoss or zerg with more skill. again, therefore they are ranked the same in ladder. but a terran of similar skill ownz the hell out of every toss or zerg with similar skill level. and thats why tournaments are dominated by terran.
this also would implie that there are more terrans in the upper ranks like 1.3k-1.8k, which you can easily check on the sc2-ranks page.
just an example
take that 1k terran. if we assume that the game was balanced, then that 1k terran was as skilled as the equally rated protoss. this would go all the way through. that means in every league there would be the same amount of terrans as the distribution of the races would imply.
is this the case? no!
there are way more terran players on the top, even though protoss is as far as i know the most played race.
so take that 1k terran again. now we assume, that the game was imbalanced in terrans favor. this would make this 1k terran win vs. his 1k toss and zerg brothers. now he is 1.2k. does he have another win ratio? no!
but that would also imply that more terrans were to be found in the higher ranks.
is this the case? YES!
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It's disappointing to see still many players defending the current balance, or saying these numbers prove nothing. When people point out that there are only 2 zerg in both the EU and US top 25 ladder, people answer "doesn't mean anything, it's tournaments that count", and then you show this 22-12-2 different winners for tournaments and still people deny any problem at all.
Let's take a look at what these objections are :
- Statistics prove nothing, you need to know the racial distribution of the entrants : well, I'm sure that in 90% of the tournaments you have more than 5% zerg (and usually you have less than 60% terran).
- Statistics prove nothing, the sample is not big enough : the first results are pretty uni-directional however, especially when the consensus is that T is OP, and the results on the ladder are the same.
- Zerg players need to improve their game-play, BO and timings : we're talking about pro-gamers here, people who play 8h/day. True the meta-game evolves, and people may find new tactics, but it's the same for the other races, so there's no reason one race should be left behind (and one far ahead).
- Use nydus worms : No comment...
- It's harder to win with Zerg because Zerg is harder to play : The point is that for pro gamers it shouldn't be harder to play Zerg than any other races. If it's too hard for a (western) pro gamer, there's a serious design problem.
- There are fewer good Zerg players than good Terran, or Zerg players don't train enough (cf Morrow) : This one is funny, because it's impossible to prove or deny. Good job Morrow finding it... However, common sense would say that there should be some disparity, but not that much.
- Korean Zergs are OP : If the game asks for 200 apm instead of 100 apm to be balanced, I think it's safe to say there's a problem of balance. So there's no reason to look at what happens in Korea.
I may have missed some points, but you just cannot say there's no problem at all with the game at the moment.
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On September 15 2010 03:39 Zog wrote:
- Korean Zergs are OP : If the game asks for 200 apm instead of 100 apm to be balanced, I think it's safe to say there's a problem of balance. So there's no reason to look at what happens in Korea.
hold on hold on... what do you people think happens in korea? look at the god damn gsl if you want to know what happens in korea.
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On September 14 2010 17:14 Irrational_Animal wrote:
Well a good indicator also could be that even Dimaga (who is usually considered as the Zerg skill beast in the foreigner world) has not been really able to win much recently. 0-2 vs Hasuobs, 0-2 vs. WhiteRa (both in Take´s Cup), 1-2 vs Tarson in the Zotac quarter finals, 3-4 vs Kiwikaki, 1-3 vs TLO in the SCcastCup and so forth. I mean he plays about three or four Tourneys per week but usually he just reaches the quarter-/semi-finals.
Sen (who is also commonly used as a reference for a Zerg that overcomes the imbalance) lost to Bratok in the Go4sc2 Quarterfinals aswell
Madfrog as a Progamer (thus I assume he plays a lot) did not even qualify for IEM (losing to Aures) in the Euroqualifier whereas 5 Swedish Terrans succeeded. Of course Morrow is a gifted player and so is Sjow, but are players like Merz or Jimpo that much superior to the likes of Haypro, Lalush or Madfrog?
Of course the statistics could have looked a bit better if Mondragon would play 6 hours a day, if Ret would not have retired for a few months or if Kolll would be active (btw. Morrow, do you know if Kolll intends to play SC2 seriously in the forseeable future?) but the same argument can be applied for the other races too, a player líke Androide would be easily another top-Terran etc.
I like how you call SjoW gifted then question me, when I beat SjoW (and Jimpo too for that matter) in a bo3 fair and square in the IEM to qualify for the final tournament.
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On September 15 2010 03:30 ensis wrote:
ok,
another really splendid argument seems to be, that the winratio seems to be pretty equal in ladder.
yeah, it is, but what does it tell?
it says that a 1k diamond terran has the same ratio as a 1k zerg. but that only means, that he wins just as much, and not is equally skilled.
there are skilled terran players, no doubt. but here comes the reason why every tournament is featuring a high amount of terrans in upper stages. a terran with less skill can defeat a protoss or zerg with more skill. again, therefore they are ranked the same in ladder. but a terran of similar skill ownz the hell out of every toss or zerg with similar skill level. and thats why tournaments are dominated by terran.
this also would implie that there are more terrans in the upper ranks like 1.3k-1.8k, which you can easily check on the sc2-ranks page.
just an example
take that 1k terran. if we assume that the game was balanced, then that 1k terran was as skilled as the equally rated protoss. this would go all the way through. that means in every league there would be the same amount of terrans as the distribution of the races would imply.
is this the case? no!
there are way more terran players on the top, even though protoss is as far as i know the most played race.
so take that 1k terran again. now we assume, that the game was imbalanced in terrans favor. this would make this 1k terran win vs. his 1k toss and zerg brothers. now he is 1.2k. does he have another win ratio? no!
but that would also imply that more terrans were to be found in the higher ranks.
is this the case? YES!
I went to sc2 ranks to look at a few numbers, and here's what I found.
First, we're going to assume that players of Diamond skill level (whether it be top or bottom of Diamond) are capable of hitting diamond league and aren't stuck in Platinum.
Next, we look at how many pages of players you get when you search for Diamond players in North America by race.
Zerg: 78
Protoss: 116
Terran: 281
Based on those numbers alone, there are more than twice as many Terran players that Protoss players, and about 3.6 Terran players for each Zerg player. Doesn't it make sense that in a league with similarly skilled players, there are naturally more high-point Terran players than Zerg players? Absolutely. As cuppatea said, it's nearly impossible to keep track of every player entering the tournaments sofar. But from the breakdown of Diamond league players, there's an obscene amount of Terran players, it's only natural that they're the ones flooding these tournaments and winning for the Terran race.
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EPT
