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On September 15 2010 08:09 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 08:00 Warrior Madness wrote:
The bandaid fix would be to make overlord speed available pre-lair, for 150/150. I just don't see the upcoming patch changes to be THAT significant in the long run. I don't remember the last time I played a T who centered their strategy around tanks. When I play T I usually transition into Thor, blueflame hellion - maruader (or marines), and it's a pretty powerful unit mix. That would be a shit fix. It would delay lair tech too much and be too expensive to be a viable early game choice. In fact, just getting a lair and making an overseer would be better every single time, while lowering minerals and gas and timing to be a viable early game research would overpower zerg and just make the game worse overall, as the other races no longer have any viable way of denying zerg scouting.
Buffing Zerg scouting would make the game worse overall ? They could get an undeniable scouting ? They could have the same scouting abilities as Terran or Protoss ? Clearly it would be broken ...
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[/QUOTE]
Buffing Zerg scouting would make the game worse overall ? They could get an undeniable scouting ? They could have the same scouting abilities as Terran or Protoss ? Clearly it would be broken ...[/QUOTE]
you can still proxy stuff though....
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On September 14 2010 11:35 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
well the sad part is that exactly that @Art_of_Kill forces terran to be the offender against zerg and toss while they always just have to defend.
because once u strike 200 psi and both have many expoes, zerg can remkae 50 roaches in 30 seconnds and toss can warpin units in 5 second while terran must build their units
in sc1 terran 200 psi was stronger than toss 200 psi but toss rebuilt faster, so after a battle toss had to rebuild and then wipe out terran
but in sc2 terran 200 psi is weaker and they rebuild alot slower in comparison to production facilities costs
thats why i hope they do something about this because in theory zerg and toss never has to attack the terran because they know they have an easy ride later game. so they can put larva max to half and that wouldnt change alot except for later game where u actually stop make units as z
its very shallow match up if u know lategame terran always lose. maybe u can balance it and say ok terran have to attack and that is balanced, sure but its not so interesting if we always see terran be the attacker. all races should be able to camp, timing attack and be somewhat equal in the late game, but its not like that at all with sc2 Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 23:06 MorroW wrote:i agree with every single thing OP said and sorry i dont have any advise for u, i dont know a safe way to fe anymore. in patch5 and before i could rax fe then 6-7 i could marauder fe and now i cant fe. i cant do anything and ive tried everything just like u its not really just the early game, later game i feel like toss can simply get far better economy because his units r very cost effective and lategame is just ridiculous, if u reach that toss always wins the only way terran has been able to win this entire beta stage is through early game, as we r getting worse bio and stronger mech we are now in a position where we lose against everything rather than everything being viable. demuslim is one of the best terrans in the world and if he comes here and says this, its not just that he has been winning because he been spoiled wins by imba. terran has been worst race and we r getting changes but demuslim were one of few terrans who fought the odds of the mus. if u dont understand the level of play i suggest u to just agree with what he says and if u disagree i suggest u to be silent and accept ur the one whos missing something, not demuslim On April 14 2010 17:19 3D.Strelok wrote:
In TvP now it's like that: if you perfectly know what protoss does ( maphack is on) you stay on 50% chances to win. It turns onto who is better. And if you miss what protoss does you have almost no chances to win. I really want to think it's not imbalance but thing that terran didn't find counters yet. u cant really know what toss is doing early game, if u spend 50 on a scan to see what his doing (assuming he built every single tech building near the nexus including with gateways) sure u know what he do, but u cant stop it because u just lost ur mule. if u dont scan u end up in a scenario where either u get a game rolling ur toss rolls over u because he countered ur build and u had no idea whats coming. simply think its ignorant to say its a 50% chance to win in a mu and this is if u know what toss is doing, a good toss wont let u know that and remember toss ALWAYS knows what ur doing. they r the ones with maphack not us so ur scenario is very unrealistic Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 23:21 MorroW wrote:On April 14 2010 23:15 Gretorp wrote:
in my experience, tvp has now become very very very boring. you go 4 rax to keep up with the protoss and stay on one base the entire game. tech appropriately such that you don't die to protoss tech since mass immortals and mass collossus are dealt with in 2 different gas/mineral routes(ghost and vikings). don't expand till you're about to run out of minerals, lift CC and expo when minerals start to run out. at end yo uwill still be on either 4 or 5 rax, a factory not producing anything, and a starport, interchanging its add on with the rax. if you go to expo anywhere during this phase, you lose positioning which you desperately need, and you are behind in units.
I've tried going mech pretty aggressively for the past week, and it is very hard to control gas when going mech. then i ran into a warp prism + 2 immortal and lol'ed at my defending tanks. and by lol'ed i mean QQed if u r 1base vs 1base he can make dts and force u to turn back, force u to build turrets and force u to waste at least 1 scan. u cant afford this on 1base and u cant get a raven either, u also cant really contain a toss with a turret and u cant assume hes going dt and get turrets every game. on top of that you also cant scout it. and as ur paying for all this shit just to survive he can expand and hes in a great shape. 1base vs 1base toss is stronger, its the truth Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:01 DeMusliM wrote:
I can tell we just had a huge influx of protoss players join this thread and fail to see the point.
A terran HAS to make a heavy tier 1-1.5 army just to survive the gateway push - with bunkers the whole lot, pumping every resource he has into this. Meanwhile the protoss can easily expo and out resource the terran - this is the problem - that the terran cannot survive early without getting some kinda force together, while the protoss can can tech even, while pumping out 4 warpgates and immortals while the terrans later tech units make little difference - (Immortals counter all ground terran has, and HT's counter anything that counters the immortal - see the problem late game?).
And i'm not even talking about late game, the problem for terrans right now is surviving the early game without being too far behind mid-late. People who fail to see this are enjoying the easy life of 4 warpgate rushing terrans and winning with relative ease.
I spoke with several top protoss players on Europe who all agreed that the MU right now is very heavily favoured towards the protoss - and the only way they lose is if they make a big mistake micro/macro wise or don't scout (pretty hard not to scout with a obs!). Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:02 MorroW wrote:On April 15 2010 01:44 deo.deo wrote:
haha, cant wait until the koreans really bite into the game. all those little whine threads will be shaken up completely. as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote:
Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War. this is basically how i was playing before patch 6 was out, it even raped colosus then the sad part atm is that it doesnt work now, sentry -2 dmg along with immortal and zea meatshield fucking hard rape this build or they can make fast colosus which also rape it. they can even go mass zea sentry and rape it too :/ Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 09:26 MorroW wrote:
the goal is just to create a build that survives and puts up a good fight against anything toss does. just like siege expo in sc1.
if u stop a massgateway u will be ahead and win the game, its a simple thought
the proper way how a rts game should be is that a counter to a safe expo is to expo urself to catch up rather than having a bunch of "C&C db style rock paper scissor" hard counters
im not sure if my build or any tvp build for that matter can defend all cheese yet by "scout and respond rule" but i know its the best so far, since everything else has been failing terribly lately. just watch my reps vs nightend where i desperately tried to play my old 1rax fe xd
so if it now happens to be that u can counter cheese with this build, it doesnt mean pvt is impossible. it just means ur not gonna win easily by going same 1robo3warpgate every game. hopefully this is the first step to counter fe with fe rather than counter fe with rush. if both fe i guess it will turn out to be anyones game. but if terran cant fe then terran cant win because stuff like dts or sentry with force field are just so strong 1base vs 1base that they can let u expand while terran is locked in (5sentry 2immortal and 3 zealot is never ever gonna let u down the ramp). thats why its so important that we need a fe build thats safe against all cheese
im not gonna release any reps and its best if i dont talk about this any more for now because im still not sure how good it is really. but i can imagine it being really strong and ive never lost with it where i executed it correctly yet (im low rating tho). but ill keep u guys posted of my build works or not (as in straight up play, not luck based. not as in win or lose... "without meta game abuse" as nony would say :>) LOL. Only reason I couldn't find more zerg whine is because morrow's post history mysteriously stops in around mid april. All the zerg whining took place in March and early April. Then roach armor and supply got nerfed along with 2x nerf of hydras and a bunch of other things. I only had to check 3 threads to find whine similar to zergs' whine though. I distinctly remember morrow doing lots of crying instead of just "playing the game", as is usually morrow's advice to zerg players nowadays. Protoss 1base vs Terran 1base is imbalanced =) You can't go raven ^^ "Need ways to FE safely". hahaha. Guess what, zerg needs ways to FE safely too!
i love you man, thats what i thought all the time, too 
in my opinion, the (4-5!?) roach nerfs just were too hard.
they were mentioned as the new zerg-backbone in the midgame.... well, nowerdays, they arent even a backbone in the earlygame. i know, you can mass them and defend against several strategys, but they arent anywhere near cost efficient... well, even our banelings are more cost efficient (though they are suicide units).
i dont get that at all. against terran you need to get your expo up, and harass with mutas (both, roach and hydra are just crap in mid, even that patch wont help us using hydras, cause of that horrific movement speed) but why does terran have so much anti air? strongest turrets alongside with high dps marines and splash thors? you need that time, your mutas would buy to get a third up to safely tech into ultra or brood. but thats simply not possible.
i mean, i have no problem with facing a good terran, with nice controle micro and building placement, where i have a really hard time to do any damage, but as it is like this, he just crushes my mutaforce without any problems.
so we have to exactly scout what the opponent has, because we lack of an allround unit... oh wait... thats what the roach was designed for... but sadly cannot keep up with it after all those nerfs
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As soon as the reapers build time is increased, I think the TvZ MU is going to be alot better. Whenever I see terrans open with hellions etc instead of this 5 rax reaper, then it becomes a really nice game which seem pretty balanced. I still think the damage of the ultralisks is abit insane but thats not the biggest issue right now.
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This thread needs more IdrA rage.
It was beautiful while it lasted, and now I hunger for more.
Can't wait for players like IdrA, Dimaga and Cool to completely own the scene when Blizz finally fixes Zerg (or they switch to Terran  )
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On September 15 2010 11:43 Subversion wrote:This thread needs more IdrA rage. It was beautiful while it lasted, and now I hunger for more. Can't wait for players like IdrA, Dimaga and Cool to completely own the scene when Blizz finally fixes Zerg (or they switch to Terran )
IdrA is owning the scene pretty hard in the current state to be honest
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On September 15 2010 07:53 StupidFatHobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 23:31 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 23:29 Sqq wrote:
The problem with mistakes is its so unforgiving when you do them with Zerg, but with Terran you can do rather huge mistakes and its still very forgiving. whats your point? my point is that there are players who say its imba always and there are players who sometimes say "i did a mistake" and sometimes say "ok something is wrong here". and there are TONS more players that just scream imba at everything. madfrog and ret did so well in previous games so they have this beautiful mind set of improving their game while other mediocre players are just pissing me off with their bs He clearly stated his point. His point is that one fuckup as Z and the game is over, but you can fuck up ten times as T and still win. If you think that's balanced you should probably play Z for a while since your perspective is so severely biased. Unfortunately I fear a switch to Z would permanently end your career!
Scrubs like you have no right to berate a clearly amazing player. People like you are the reason top players don't bother posting on TL, because of all the shit they get from no name scrubs.
Scrubs like me can tell scrubs like you to shut up, so please: Shut up!
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On September 15 2010 07:27 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 07:12 Lefnui wrote:On September 15 2010 06:37 teamsolid wrote:
I think whoever wins the GSL is gonna be pretty widely regarded as top SC2 player in the world. Agreed. Small, online foreigner tournaments are pretty meaningless in comparison. so far GSL has shown skill level far inferior to IEM. Hopefully itll change in ro32 but the top Gamescon players will have a very solid claim for being the best as well.
I do not agree that GSL has shown a far inferior skill level. And the tournament has 64 players, not 16 as in Gamescom. There has been some players in GSL that hasnt really showed a high amount of skill, but then again there has been many more who have showed skill level on par or higher than that of the standard in IEM. Remember that Nazgul and Jinro didnt manage to qualify for GSL, and I am pretty sure that they would have qualified for a western tournament of the same size.
Anyways, what I mean is that the general level of this large tournament is very high and therefore winning it will be considered a much larger achievement than winning IEM or MSL.
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Wow OP... that info seriously explains a lot. Just another set of stats that prove the same point over and over and over...
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Interesting discussions really, even more interesting seeing the opinions of professionals and extremly high skilled players.
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He clearly stated his point. His point is that one fuckup as Z and the game is over
Yes I'm pretty sure that was clearly established.
If you think that's balanced you should probably play Z for a while since your perspective is so severely biased.
Except he wasn't talking about balance.
Unfortunately I fear a switch to Z would permanently end your career!
luls. w/e, continue on being bad :/.
so far GSL has shown skill level far inferior to IEM.[/quote]
Yes
Buffing Zerg scouting would make the game worse overall ? They could get an undeniable scouting ? They could have the same scouting abilities as Terran or Protoss ? Clearly it would be broken ...
Huuur duuuurrf.
Look. Zerg is my main, recently finally chose to pick it over random (cuz p is so gay to play lol). I think zerg needs a buff. Now understand there is a difference between making the game more balanced, and more fun to play, and simply changing it.
The suggestion that I quoted to is not a buff to zerg. It is a nerf. The increase in overlord speed from 100/100 to 150/150 is not offset by moving it down to t1 because its price and research time, combined with other necessary t1 gas usage such as ling speed would be too high a price time, combined with its confliction with making an overseer, to be viably researched before lair anyway.
The timing window for this ability does not exist in t1 assuming significant gas investment and sizable research time in a standard bo. Moreover, the ability cannot exist as a reactive ability because the timing of the research would mean that in the timing window before this ability can come into play, the opponent can already guarantee a lethal force. And thats only assuming IF the timing is lower then lairtech+overseer by a significant margin.
The only way overspeed can be a viable skill t1 is if it existed as a "tech placement upgrade", an upgrade not to create choice or balance an abilities power by requiring an investment, but to simply delay it until a specific timing window. Think warpgates, except overspeed would need a faster research time as well.
If you think having 3-4 flying scouts with 200 hp moving at roughly the speed of a voidray t1 is equal to a scan which delays 270 minerals for no significant mineral or gas cost and little upgrade time, then you are flat our retarded. Sorry.
And if you think Protoss t1 has better scouting then Zerg t1, then you're simply playing a different game :/.
tl;dr- Overspeed cannot exist in T1, it will either be useless or overpowering.
The only way overspeed can be balanced for t1 is if it gives some increased scouting, but not uncounterable, on a upgrade with fast research times, and a noticeable but not prohibitive cost in gas and minerals. This can be accomplished by simply lowering the speed, which would also double as a nerf for zerg come t2, or as I would suggest, another scouting ability, maybe changelings.
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Zerg players just need to know how to play zerg. It's called strategy the main reason why zergs are so bad is because the players using zerg have no tactics and it shows even the zergs on the higher levels are struggling. If you wanna defeat your opponent than your going to need a strategy, but zerg players don't know how to play and haven't developed a concept for using tactics.
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On September 15 2010 15:35 Rasky wrote:
Zerg players just need to know how to play zerg. It's called strategy the main reason why zergs are so bad is because the players using zerg have no tactics and it shows even the zergs on the higher levels are struggling. If you wanna defeat your opponent than your going to need a strategy, but zerg players don't know how to play and haven't developed a concept for using tactics.
just gonna jump in before this guy gets warned and stuff and flamed.
he is being sarcastic.
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On September 15 2010 15:35 Rasky wrote:
Zerg players just need to know how to play zerg. It's called strategy the main reason why zergs are so bad is because the players using zerg have no tactics and it shows even the zergs on the higher levels are struggling. If you wanna defeat your opponent than your going to need a strategy, but zerg players don't know how to play and haven't developed a concept for using tactics.
it's so narcissistic when terrans say this. "Other races suck at tactics but we have them down pat. Why is this? ummm.." Yeah, you have it figured out, but all these people playing another race don't. That's totally believable.
*edit* too slow tyrantPotato. It's pretty poor sarcasm when it is completely indistinguishable from things we frequently see people say in all seriousness. If he thinks that is over the top enough to be obvious.. well I wish it was
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On September 15 2010 15:35 Rasky wrote:
Zerg players just need to know how to play zerg. It's called strategy the main reason why zergs are so bad is because the players using zerg have no tactics and it shows even the zergs on the higher levels are struggling. If you wanna defeat your opponent than your going to need a strategy, but zerg players don't know how to play and haven't developed a concept for using tactics.
I'm glad you've found the underlining reason as to why Zerg players are failing to achieve the same success as Terran or Protoss players. Through many hours of practice, theorycrafting, number crunching, and saving puppies, who would have thought that the reason Zergs lose is because they don't have a strategy!
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On September 15 2010 15:42 MamiyaOtaru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 15:35 Rasky wrote:
Zerg players just need to know how to play zerg. It's called strategy the main reason why zergs are so bad is because the players using zerg have no tactics and it shows even the zergs on the higher levels are struggling. If you wanna defeat your opponent than your going to need a strategy, but zerg players don't know how to play and haven't developed a concept for using tactics. it's so narcissistic when terrans say this. "Other races suck at tactics but we have them down pat. Why is this? ummm.." Yeah, you have it figured out, but all these people playing another race don't. That's totally believable. *edit* too slow tyrantPotato. It's pretty poor sarcasm when it is completely indistinguishable from things we frequently see people say in all seriousness. If he thinks that is over the top enough to be obvious.. well I wish it was
yeah. well i only assume its sarcasim. but your right. this isnt even half as bad as some of the posts that appear on TL.
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i dont really care, if top-level-players post here. not as long as they spout some shit like morrow does, like telling that reaper micro is really hard.
just for instance. every player, that ever played stalker or roaches against zealots will state, that its not that freaking hard, in addition those fuckers can jump cliffs.
though i really appreciate it, when people like qxc or naruto just stood up and made a thread here, clearly saying, that THEIR OWN RACE is imbalanced. or drewbie stating in a interview, that he also thinks that terran is imbalanced and helped him of course raising high. big respect to them.
and it´s already stated in this thread, that there are way too many over-modest progamers, who just won´t speak their mind. take madfrog at iem.
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On September 15 2010 16:38 ensis wrote:
i dont really care, if top-level-players post here. not as long as they spout some shit like morrow does, like telling that reaper micro is really hard.
just for instance. every player, that ever played stalker or roaches against zealots will state, that its not that freaking hard, in addition those fuckers can jump cliffs.
though i really appreciate it, when people like qxc or naruto just stood up and made a thread here, clearly saying, that THEIR OWN RACE is imbalanced. or drewbie stating in a interview, that he also thinks that terran is imbalanced and helped him of course raising high. big respect to them.
and it´s already stated in this thread, that there are way too many over-modest progamers, who just won´t speak their mind. take madfrog at iem.
the problem with Morrow saying reaper micro is hard is that he admittedly learnt the build like 2 days before he won a large-money tournament with them, in a convincing manner. So either he's the new Boxer-Jaedong Hybrid, or that micro just inst that hard
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didnt even knew that, but should prove this even more
and lol @ret quote^^
btw. @idra rage
well i hated idra back in sc1 he always flamed good and skilled players, but back then, the game was pretty balanced.
right now, i love idra, because he just is the pro-voice of the community
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On September 15 2010 07:27 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 07:12 Lefnui wrote:On September 15 2010 06:37 teamsolid wrote:
I think whoever wins the GSL is gonna be pretty widely regarded as top SC2 player in the world. Agreed. Small, online foreigner tournaments are pretty meaningless in comparison. so far GSL has shown skill level far inferior to IEM. Hopefully itll change in ro32 but the top Gamescon players will have a very solid claim for being the best as well.
Yeah, so far GSL has shown a lesser average skill level as IEM.
But cool, check and tester would have each won easily the IEM if they played it, so average doesn't mean a lot.
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EPT
