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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 16 2010 06:38 Slayer91 wrote: The reason why you HAVE to right click after shift C in the real technique is return cargo stops them from automining so holding down C doesn't work sorry folks. Ahh... it does... that sucks...  | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On September 16 2010 02:10 FabledIntegral wrote: Well say he drops down 4 mules on a gold (say 3 orbitals, one had 100+ energy). Idk how much the mule brings in, but assuming around 40 per trip, if each got 1 more trip from the trick, that's 160 minerals in quite a short time frame, isn't it? 90 seconds for 160 minerals, constantly checking back every time the mule finishes mining a cycle? r u 4 rela? Please get realistic. This isn't an actual scenario, this is theorycraft. Unless you plan on going fast orbital -> floating a 200 energy orbital to the high yield immediately. Which again isn't realistic. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 16 2010 06:52 KawaiiRice wrote: 90 seconds for 160 minerals, constantly checking back every time the mule finishes mining a cycle? r u 4 rela? Please get realistic. This isn't an actual scenario, this is theorycraft. Unless you plan on going fast orbital -> floating a 200 energy orbital to the high yield immediately. Which again isn't realistic. Where in the world do you get 90s? It should take no longer than ~10 s if you can get it down properly for all four mules. Notice I said 3 orbitals? So all 4 are called down immediately. Don't tell me you don't ever float to having two mules on the same orbital. I'm saying there are situations where it could still be viable midgame. A few seconds for a generous return. Players in BW split their workers when transferring to their third all the time for a quick few seconds, and I'm sure splitting didn't generate a net income of 160 minerals. | ||
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ZeusWTFrudoin
United States35 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On September 16 2010 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote: Where in the world do you get 90s? It should take no longer than ~10 s if you can get it down properly for all four mules. Notice I said 3 orbitals? So all 4 are called down immediately. Don't tell me you don't ever float to having two mules on the same orbital. I'm saying there are situations where it could still be viable midgame. A few seconds for a generous return. Players in BW split their workers when transferring to their third all the time for a quick few seconds, and I'm sure splitting didn't generate a net income of 160 minerals. Don't you just get 1 extra trip per mule by mineral boosting? So all that boosting only = an extra 160 minerals. (Correct me if I'm wrong but I've been under that assumption) And yes, I DO float energy on my orbitals because my multitask is bad and I can't spare it to do something like mineral boost midgame. Also, splitting workers to expos in BW was fine/easier/incomparable because you didn't have to do it every time they finished mining a block. | ||
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mizore
40 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:26 FabledIntegral wrote: In fact it'd be much more tolerable just having all workers and spamming "return cargo" early game. Does that work just as well? Oh so you're just bitter than you can't hold down shift and spam right click and c. Gotcha. Btw mules only return 30 so in your proposed situation it'd only be 120 minerals that you wouldn't even see up front. Is it optimal? Yes. So is a lot of other useless theorycraft. That 10~ seconds that you propose using could be put to so much better use on literally anything. Last time I checked, nobody has played the perfect game of sc2 yet. There's more pressing things to worry about midgame. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 16 2010 07:04 KawaiiRice wrote: Don't you just get 1 extra trip per mule by mineral boosting? So all that boosting only = an extra 160 minerals. (Correct me if I'm wrong but I've been under that assumption) And yes, I DO float energy on my orbitals because my multitask is bad and I can't spare it to do something like mineral boost midgame. Also, splitting workers to expos in BW was fine/easier/incomparable because you didn't have to do it every time they finished mining a block. Forgive me if I've interpreted this incorrectly, but you don't have to do it everytime they finish mineral boosting a block. You only have to do it once. Hence "queuing it up." I agree it would be impossible if you had to babysit it. But from the youtube video he only had to queue it up a single time and it continued to do it for a very long time after. And I'm assuming as well that it would only be a single extra trip from the mule, which is where I also got the number 160, assuming it's a single extra trip of around 40 (in reality I have no idea how much a gold mule returns per trip). If I've incorrectly interpreted it then I take everything back. On September 16 2010 07:05 mizore wrote: Oh so you're just bitter than you can't hold down shift and spam right click and c. Gotcha. Btw mules only return 30 so in your proposed situation it'd only be 120 minerals that you wouldn't even see up front. Is it optimal? Yes. So is a lot of other useless theorycraft. That 10~ seconds that you propose using could be put to so much better use on literally anything. Last time I checked, nobody has played the perfect game of sc2 yet. There's more pressing things to worry about midgame. I said a gold expo and estimated on 40. And yeah, I'm bitter I now have to perform some senseless bullshit at the beginning of the game that adds utterly zero depth in itself. And if you think that "10 s you propose could be put to better use on literally anything," for 160 minerals (or even the 120 you incorrectly attempted to correct me on) then you're full of it. There are many situations I can see it much more beneficial to do other things, but what you say is full of grade A horseshit. | ||
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sockfolder
United States9 Posts
Regardless, for those such as myself that do enjoy this trick, I made a map that lets you practice it. It is like a very mini YABOT with the following features: 1) Tracks your % of successful mineral boosts in the top left 2) Timer in the top right 3) Type "-r" to reset the map and "-v" to end the map 4) Missed boosts causes workers to glow red and show "Miss!" You can find the map here: http://static.sc2mapster.com/content/files/452/324/BoostingPractice0_2.SC2Map Open this map in the editor to play it. If you don't want a random race, select the race in the player options. It isn't as clean as YABOT, but it is enough to help you see how well you can execute this trick while keeping up with your build order. As a final comment, I think it will be very difficult to fix this trick (and related ones) without giving the universal 7% mining increase. The 0.5 sec delay on the mining just causes too many issues. As proof of this, I present a little mini-trick that also improves mining speed (though much less effectively). This trick requires a small unit that may be guarding your base, such as marine, zealot, sentry, zergling etc. Place that unit very close to the minerals basically on top of your mining workers, and either hold position or patrol there. If you place it correctly, the worker will bounce away from the minerals, thereby reducing its distance to the CC and speeding up mining. This works because during the 0.5sec delay, the worker's collision becomes enabled for some reason. It is too hard and insignificant to be useful, but it is funny. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
Also, MULEs are 30 per trip, so 4 MULEs with 1 extra trip each is 120 minerals on regular patches, or 128 if you're on a High Yield base (which I believe was the initial scenario). | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 16 2010 12:37 Sylvr wrote: Hey Sock, can you please please please add something to the OP about how the Holding/spamming C on your workers does not work? For some reason, I'm still reading this thread and it's annoying to see the question asked twice per page as though they've just made the most brilliant discovery of the century. Also, MULEs are 30 per trip, so 4 MULEs with 1 extra trip each is 120 minerals on regular patches, or 128 if you're on a High Yield base (which I believe was the initial scenario). What? That's only 8 extra minerals for 4 trips. Gold mules bring in more than just 2 more than blue mules per trip don't they??? | ||
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QuothTheRaven
United States5524 Posts
On September 16 2010 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote: What? That's only 8 extra minerals for 4 trips. Gold mules bring in more than just 2 more than blue mules per trip don't they??? For the record, a MULE on a gold mineral patch brings in 42 minerals per trip, up from the standard 30 minerals per trip. Also, you did misinterpret Kawaii's statement: he said that splitting workers was fine in BW since you only had to do it once, which is also what you said. | ||
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Tictock
United States6052 Posts
I am a little disappointed so many people dislike this trick. To me, it is a relatively enjoyable 'minigame' during a phase of the game when you normally do nothing at all. The value of the trick decays rapidly almost exactly when you have to do other things, and there is nothing else worthwhile at the beginning of the game. You might enjoy this trick more if you focus less on spamming really fast, and more on keeping track of which workers will return when so you can select them earlier/faster. I think the reason why some people dislike this and think it should be patched is that they feel it's beyond their micro to do (which it really shouldn't be) and gives their opponents who do use it an advantage. Honestly I think this trick is great as it adds something to do in the opening game which has a direct benefit to your opening play. However, I think this trick is debatable in how much it actually changes opening game play. Consider first how far into the game you will be able to pull this off. I'd guestimate that after about 2 min your not going to have the time to keep pulling this off, as your going to be starting to build alot more and start scouting. You could argue for longer, but honestly you wont be able to use it on as many workers after the 2 min mark so it's usefulness drops pretty fast after then. Next, how many workers can you actually get to do this at one time? Maybe 7? This isn't even so much APM as it is Que length and the time it takes to issue the commands to each worker. I havent tested this myself but some of my friends (with much better apm than me) did and said that after about the 6th worker your first one has finished the command que. So all said and done this gets you about 7 workers mining 7% faster for about 2 min of the game, that really doesnt add up to much, and certainly isn't game changing. Pretty much in any game that lasts longer than 5min this will get overshadowed rather quickly. I'm going to quickly look at the math using my assumptions here: a Worker returns 5 minerals per trip, looking at the timing, it looks like with regular mine they make a full trip in a bout 5 second, this trick looks like it knocks off a full second from that time. So assuming you can get 7 workers doing this trick perfectly for the full 2 minuets that world be 6 extra trips (120/5 = 24, 120/4 =30) which does add up to a whopping 210 extra minerals. But thats ideal conditions and does not account for the ramp up time it takes to get all your workers to do this (not to mention you start with only 6 workers) and would likely require you to focus entirely on doing this trick. A more realistic calculation would probably be for 5-6 workers over 1.5 min, which comes out to only 4 extra trips (90/5 =18, 90/4 =22.5) or 120 extra minerals for 6 workers, and 100 for 5. I think those numbers should help convince most people that this trick is very worthwhile, but again, due to the fact that you have to pull it off flawlessly (miscuing can easily negate the benefit, and even harm you, though it should be easy to do flawlessly) and that the extra minerals only add up over the time you do use the trick, this doesn't feel game changing. Still I would expect this to become fairly standard much like the peon micro shown in the WC3 video in one of the early posts here. PS: I'm very serious about this not being useful after the 2 min mark, you might think "well an extra trip for mules, or mining at an expo faster", but it really comes down to the idea of "useful actions" at a certain point it's not worth spending the time to use this trick there are just too many other things to do than get the slightly faster minerals. This extends to the usefulness of using this on MULE's as Mule's wont start getting dropped until a point in the game where your apm is better spent elsewhere. *note, feel free to critique my assumptions here, they should be fairly accurate though Edit: Looking back at the OP, I notice that data listed there shows only a half second improvement in mining time when using this trick, just half all my "extra minerals" to account for that change, notice this change makes this trick seem much less significant | ||
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Freezy3
New Zealand68 Posts
Very nice find and very nice first post too nonetheless. | ||
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demonik187
United States575 Posts
On September 16 2010 14:27 Freezy3 wrote: I've heard that it's going to be fixed, so I wouldn't get too attached. Very nice find and very nice first post too nonetheless. Do you have any legit source of this information? | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On September 13 2010 21:14 shawabawa wrote: How about just calling it "microing workers". Not everything needs a ridiculous name Destiny Sockfold. | ||
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shawabawa
United Kingdom417 Posts
With not worker micro, not even splitting, I got the pool down at 43 seconds. On fastest speed doing by best at mineral boosting I got it to like 41 seconds. In a custom game on "slowest" speed, I managed to get it down to 39 seconds. Not a huge difference but 4 extra seconds of zerglings before they get their first unit can make a huge difference, especially if it's vs Terran and you can break in before the wall. Of course only pros will be able to get it down to 39 seconds in real time probably (or maybe I just suck  ) | ||
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Danze
Australia219 Posts
On September 16 2010 19:45 shawabawa wrote: I tried testing how much time I could shave off using this doing a 6-pool With not worker micro, not even splitting, I got the pool down at 43 seconds. On fastest speed doing by best at mineral boosting I got it to like 41 seconds. In a custom game on "slowest" speed, I managed to get it down to 39 seconds. Not a huge difference but 4 extra seconds of zerglings before they get their first unit can make a huge difference, especially if it's vs Terran and you can break in before the wall. Of course only pros will be able to get it down to 39 seconds in real time probably (or maybe I just suck )Indeed mate, indeed. Considering the amount of time warp gates and and reaper build times are supposedly being increased to, 4 seconds on top of that = huge. | ||
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Plaaguu
United States406 Posts
Thanks for the post! I'm gonna try it out the next time i play :D | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
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