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On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?). Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game.
Mid-High Diamond games are often won/lost by much larger margins than this can create. The amount of times where this trick will win a game at anything other than Pro level (and probably not even the current Pro scene, as they still make a good number of mistakes) will be negligible. If you lose by not using this trick, then you would have lost using it too.
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My experimental results seem to show the potential gain is larger than 7%.
Steps:
- Run yabot steppes of war
- choose basic mode
- reset as protoss (-r p)
- train worker
- box and 3:3 split
- rally first 2 probes to empty patches
- reset and leave rally at middle patch
- pylon on 9 @ 100 minerals adjacent to nexus
- chrono boost 11th probe and continue to pump probes until 18
- pause when 18th probe spawns
I got 2:58 with 685 minerals and 25 energy on my nexus
Now open up the map in galaxy editor f7 for data module data type behaviors select neutral>minerals change stats return delay from .5 to 0 this should simulate optimal micro if we understand this trick correctly.
Rerun the test with this map.
I got 2:56 with 770 minerals and 24 energy on my nexus
A little math gives us a relative percent difference of mineral per second rate here as ~12.8% which seems much higher than 7%. Probably not possible to reach that level of efficiency in practice but seems interesting.
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On September 13 2010 16:16 Sylvr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?). Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game. Mid-High Diamond games are often won/lost by much larger margins than this can create. The amount of times where this trick will win a game at anything other than Pro level (and probably not even the current Pro scene, as they still make a good number of mistakes) will be negligible. If you lose by not using this trick, then you would have lost using it too.
I wouldn't be surprised if within a few months professional players were able to use this trick for the first 5+ minutes, which would probably be several hundred extra minerals. You guys realize you can do the trick by just selecting all of your workers and holding down c, right? It can't take long for top players to hotkey all their works and just select them and hold c during even the slightest downtime.
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On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?). Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game.
Mid-high diamond players are still average. 7% minerals do not make a difference in those games.
Edit: Slyvr gets it...
On September 13 2010 16:16 Sylvr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?). Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game. Mid-High Diamond games are often won/lost by much larger margins than this can create. The amount of times where this trick will win a game at anything other than Pro level (and probably not even the current Pro scene, as they still make a good number of mistakes) will be negligible. If you lose by not using this trick, then you would have lost using it too.
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On September 13 2010 16:22 PJA wrote:
You guys realize you can do the trick by just selecting all of your workers and holding down c, right? It can't take long for top players to hotkey all their works and just select them and hold c during even the slightest downtime.
That doesn't work.
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On September 13 2010 16:16 Sylvr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?). Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game. Mid-High Diamond games are often won/lost by much larger margins than this can create. The amount of times where this trick will win a game at anything other than Pro level (and probably not even the current Pro scene, as they still make a good number of mistakes) will be negligible. If you lose by not using this trick, then you would have lost using it too.
I didn't say it would be game winning, just that mid-high diamond is where the greatest difference will occur. The difference between a person NOT doing this and a person who IS doing this is far greater than the difference between two people doing it but with different APMs. It is still negligible in both cases, but the point is that leaving this trick in doesn't even effect the group (pros) in the way that people are claiming it does (which they are using as justification).
7% minerals do not make a difference in those games.
You're right. But what I am saying is that that is the ONLY group where a 7% mineral gain can even occur (relative to the other player). If two pros were doing this I doubt one of them could even get a 1% income advantage over the other player, and so they may as well not be doing it.
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On September 13 2010 16:22 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 16:16 Sylvr wrote:On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?). Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game. Mid-High Diamond games are often won/lost by much larger margins than this can create. The amount of times where this trick will win a game at anything other than Pro level (and probably not even the current Pro scene, as they still make a good number of mistakes) will be negligible. If you lose by not using this trick, then you would have lost using it too. I wouldn't be surprised if within a few months professional players were able to use this trick for the first 5+ minutes, which would probably be several hundred extra minerals. You guys realize you can do the trick by just selecting all of your workers and holding down c, right? It can't take long for top players to hotkey all their works and just select them and hold c during even the slightest downtime.
You realize that people have been talking about holding down C for the entire thread and that it's been tested and confirmed to not work correctly right? Server latency eats up most of the .5 seconds between the Wait phase and the Return phase unless the actions are queued ahead of time. It's not the initial return that you get the noticeable acceleration, it's the subsequent trips that you queued with the Shift key since those are input internally and are not subject to latency.
Edit: At least, that's the theory that currently fits the data.
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Question about how it's actually done, don't think its specified in the OP:
Does it matter if you continue extending the queue past the point in which they are returning cargo? I.E. After they return the minerals if you keep extending the queue, will it mess up the process? Or as long as you start it when they have the return cargo command it's fine?
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On September 13 2010 16:33 Tump wrote:
Question about how it's actually done, don't think its specified in the OP:
Does it matter if you continue extending the queue past the point in which they are returning cargo? I.E. After they return the minerals if you keep extending the queue, will it mess up the process? Or as long as you start it when they have the return cargo command it's fine?
You can only queue return cargo commands if the worker has cargo so as soon as he drops it off at the townhall your c button is no longer adding that command to the queue and you should stop otherwise you'll just queue up a bunch of gather commands and the worker will pause at the mineral line at the end of its queue.
Also the mechanism only works per worker. One of the first things I tried was taking my scouting worker and grabbing minerals in the opposing player's base then selecting that worker along with one on my mineral line and trying to queue up both of them together sort of like hold position lurkers. Unfortunately it doesn't work.
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Ok can someone explain why selecting all the probes and spamming the return cargo hotkey won't work compared to the individual micro.
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me and a friend tried it in tvt and i converted my increased mining rate into a much faster second gas to keep the tricks effects large for a longer window of time. I gathered 6500 he gathered 5400. Seemed to make a very large difference when you do it with every spare moment and do it well.
try using only c, if you just hit c it doesnt change anything about the scvs pathing and if you hold shift and hit c they stand at the cc.
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On September 13 2010 16:41 zor.au wrote:
Ok can someone explain why selecting all the probes and spamming the return cargo hotkey won't work compared to the individual micro.
Because the return cargo command isn't available to input until after the return delay. In order the bypass the .5s return delay you must queue up the return cargo command during an earlier return trip where you are allowed to input the command.
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Something to consider if you think this is stupid.
Any argument for taking this out can be used in exactly the same way to mineral patches being different efficiencies.
Everyone KNOWS that some patches mine faster than others.
How many actually bother to learn the patches on every map in order of speed?
Furthermore who works out how to create mining pairs first on the faster mineral patches before allowing the workers to saturate every mineral patch?
So Blizzard should just go and patch it so every mineral patch is exaclty the same distance from the base right? So we don't have to learn this pointless thing just to slightly boost mining.
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Although this is fascinating and all, i do think blizzard should fix this.
Why would we want it to become standard to sit and spam click on as many workers u can muster up the motivation/energy to do for every game u play? I mean theres not gonna be a limit, if u really care u can spam basicly all your workers constantly early game. Perhaps even keep doing so into late-earlygame, if ur aiming for that 350+ apm that is.
This robotlike spamming is exactly what blizzard intended to not bring from BW when they made SC2. Hence automining, smartbuilding, etc. I honestly dont want this mass spam trick to be an important factor for eco advantage on high level play from now and ever after. Id prefer if other factors would make for that advantage.
And also, its a buff to mule usage thats really uncalled for =P
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if this remains in the game its going to get boring really fast... like REALLY FCKING FAST. Its not a clever tactic when there is no penalty for doing it, it should be removed 100%
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On September 13 2010 16:50 Ovi wrote:
This robotlike spamming is exactly what blizzard intended to not bring from BW when they made SC2. Hence automining, smartbuilding, etc. I honestly dont want this mass spam trick to be an important factor for eco advantage on high level play from now and ever after. Id prefer if other factors would make for that advantage.
I think exactly the contrary : I'm happy that a trick who needs APM and multitask appeared. Happy to see a little bit of mechanic in SC2 t_t
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On September 13 2010 16:44 Klive5ive wrote:
Something to consider if you think this is stupid.
Any argument for taking this out can be used in exactly the same way to mineral patches being different efficiencies.
Everyone KNOWS that some patches mine faster than others.
How many actually bother to learn the patches on every map in order of speed?
Furthermore who works out how to create mining pairs first on the faster mineral patches before allowing the workers to saturate every mineral patch?
So Blizzard should just go and patch it so every mineral patch is exaclty the same distance from the base right? So we don't have to learn this pointless thing just to slightly boost mining.
I'd wager the pros memorize the ones that mine faster... sure maybe this only affects 300-500 people but can you say how it will change the game? I think any conclusions now are premature.
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On September 13 2010 16:41 zor.au wrote:
Ok can someone explain why selecting all the probes and spamming the return cargo hotkey won't work compared to the individual micro.
I explained this 3 posts up from yours.
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This is the kind of mechanic that makes games good. You need to have a high skill cost action that will increase output marginally. This will help seperate the pros from the hos.
Pros:
* Gives something useful to do in early game (before 2 workers per mineral patch)
* Increases skill level required to be best of the best
* High cost - low reward mechanic that is not as valuable as basic skills (unit placement, build timings, etc)
* You will be punished if you do this and screw up an easier part of play - this is the risk aspect.
* Includes a mechanical aspect of sc2 that requires mostly practise as opposed to knowledge. This is a different aspect of skill, making the skill cap for sc2 higher.
Cons:
* Gives pros bigger advantage over newbs...
* People will complain that sc2 is too hard...
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just tried this in some random ladder 1's. I cant say they were game changing. But definitely a difference.
And i can only get it going on like 4-5 before, along with scouting, building, gas timing etc i get overwhelmed so i stop at like 9 supply.
Still i cant say how much it helps but my mineral timing is all slightly faster. I can que up one extra probe than i normally could by 10 supply. Im sure with faster hands this could be even bettered.
Probably makes about 100 min or so difference by 10 supply if done at well which is quite big. for me its making about 40-50 min difference by 10 supply. So i guess at higher levels this is game changing if done correctly.
**Props on figuring this out.
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EPT
