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[Trick] Early Game +7% Mineral Boost - Page 31

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 29 30 31 32 33 53 Next
Jyxz
Profile Joined November 2009
United States117 Posts
September 13 2010 08:15 GMT
#601
I love broodwar, and having to play at 200 apm, but this is just stupid.. 100% flat out stupid... people say its good cause it makes the game harder lol? why not just play with someone punching you.. its a stupid exploit and i doubt the intelligence of people who think its good for the game, also what balancing that has been done has been done with this out of sight and out of mind.
This is Jimmy
shouri
Profile Joined May 2010
90 Posts
September 13 2010 08:18 GMT
#602
It's pretty sad the amount of people that want this removed... if someone is able to utilize this well enough against you for it to make a marginal difference he deserves the win more than you do anyways.
nam nam
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden4672 Posts
September 13 2010 08:19 GMT
#603
On September 13 2010 16:16 Sylvr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:
This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath


Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?).

Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game.


Mid-High Diamond games are often won/lost by much larger margins than this can create. The amount of times where this trick will win a game at anything other than Pro level (and probably not even the current Pro scene, as they still make a good number of mistakes) will be negligible. If you lose by not using this trick, then you would have lost using it too.


You are not looking at this from the big picture. There are hundreds of ways to improve your chances to win that in themselves may not win you the game but together they will. You can't say this won't make a difference because with that logic you would not do those other things as well, and that WOULD make a huge difference. I don't get you people.
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
September 13 2010 08:19 GMT
#604
I'm terrified as to what sockfolder's other post is.
waffling1
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
599 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-13 08:25:10
September 13 2010 08:21 GMT
#605
Then as quickly as possible spam C followed by right click and repeat.

Reword it to sooomething like:
"C, right click, C right click, (etc.)"

Right now, it sounds like ur saying:
( rightclick C C C C C rightclick ) -< repeat this., which is not what u are saying, and was the source of my confusion.

holding down C fills up your queue, so i don't think it's good, and not even worth mentioning at all. it only causes confusion. even if u hold down C, your mouse click is what's limiting you, and it's not like u can't spam click just as fast while spamming the C key. it would be just about the same thing.



Another question:
Why does it have to end on a right click? i ended it on cargo, and it just mines as if u never did the boosting.
nam nam
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden4672 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-13 08:23:46
September 13 2010 08:23 GMT
#606
On September 13 2010 17:15 Jyxz wrote:
I love broodwar, and having to play at 200 apm, but this is just stupid.. 100% flat out stupid... people say its good cause it makes the game harder lol? why not just play with someone punching you.. its a stupid exploit and i doubt the intelligence of people who think its good for the game, also what balancing that has been done has been done with this out of sight and out of mind.


The only good point you bring up is your last. If it impacts the game too much that it will need to be hugely re-balanced it should be fixed. Otherwise you come of like a butt hurt child trying to insult peoples intelligence... Grow up.
CadenZie
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)545 Posts
September 13 2010 08:24 GMT
#607
I can't do this and the other mining trick I was already doing It's too much...

The other mining trick for those who are curious is to have the new drone start mining a mineral patch that the old drone is about to return from at perfect timing (Rallying drones to specific patches)

I'm not fast enough to handle all of this lol
tehV
Profile Joined September 2010
28 Posts
September 13 2010 08:25 GMT
#608
On September 13 2010 16:20 Jaeger wrote:
My experimental results seem to show the potential gain is larger than 7%.

A little math gives us a relative percent difference of mineral per second rate here as ~12.8% which seems much higher than 7%. Probably not possible to reach that level of efficiency in practice but seems interesting.



Part of the difference could be the snowball effect of being able to get each probe out a bit earlier. You could eliminate this by just doing the first 6 probes. This should give the theoretical raw mining-rate difference.

waffling1
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
599 Posts
September 13 2010 08:28 GMT
#609
On September 13 2010 17:24 Cadenza wrote:
I can't do this and the other mining trick I was already doing It's too much...

The other mining trick for those who are curious is to have the new drone start mining a mineral patch that the old drone is about to return from at perfect timing (Rallying drones to specific patches)

I'm not fast enough to handle all of this lol


the general rule for timing this, is rally to a mineral patch that has a worker at the retuning phase (right up against the CC) at the moment the new worker begins. so if a patch has a worker returning mienrals, rally the drone to that patch at the time u start the drone.

but u can always adjust manually by taking a new worker and spamming a patch so that it mines that patch when the patch is ready. u still lose some time, it's better than boucning around more than once. and if u timed it pretty decently, the time loss will be less than bouncing once.
Tribune
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia60 Posts
September 13 2010 08:28 GMT
#610
itd be pretty good i think for certain rushs/cheeses, able to get those 6pool lings just a little faster, nice find
Looky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1608 Posts
September 13 2010 08:29 GMT
#611
this definitely makes 7 pool much stronger. i tried it out and made a huge difference

faster overlords and 150 mins right when the pool finishes
Sylvr
Profile Joined May 2010
United States524 Posts
September 13 2010 08:32 GMT
#612
On September 13 2010 17:19 nam nam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 16:16 Sylvr wrote:
On September 13 2010 16:08 Swede wrote:
This is only going to make a difference for the very best at the game so save your breath


Actually I would argue that is where there will be the least difference (once they're all doing it, and besides bronze players who won't use it at all). The biggest difference will be at the level where some people do it/some don't (mid - high diamond maybe?).

Which is why I think it's stupid. It will make zero difference to pro play, but it will fuck off more than half of the players where it DOES make a difference (half of TLers don't want it according to that poll, and this is TL). It's in Blizzard's best interest NOT to leave it in the game.


Mid-High Diamond games are often won/lost by much larger margins than this can create. The amount of times where this trick will win a game at anything other than Pro level (and probably not even the current Pro scene, as they still make a good number of mistakes) will be negligible. If you lose by not using this trick, then you would have lost using it too.


You are not looking at this from the big picture. There are hundreds of ways to improve your chances to win that in themselves may not win you the game but together they will. You can't say this won't make a difference because with that logic you would not do those other things as well, and that WOULD make a huge difference. I don't get you people.


If you're doing enough little tricks that their combined effect puts you over the threshold to win the game, then guess what... that means you're better than your opponent and you deserved to win. That's what the pro scene IS. When everyone's fundamentals are roughly equal, they have to rely on tactics, tricks, and sometimes dumb luck to get ahead. This method doesn't create an artificial skill difference, it creates a real one. People who are willing to do it deserve to reap its benefits.
kojinshugi
Profile Joined August 2010
Estonia2559 Posts
September 13 2010 08:33 GMT
#613
On September 13 2010 05:08 Black Gun wrote:
cool find, but i absolutely got no motivation to do anything like this. id really hate if this became standard and kind of "required" in higher lvl play....

do the good players really have to be separated from the bad players by who can better click the heck out of his keyboard/mouse?


No, the entire game should be automated so that you pick a "Build" and then your opponent clicks "Scout", and then clicks "Counter" and a dice roll decides who wins.

Of course good players really have to be separated from the bad players by being able to multitask better. Making macro more complex raises the skill cap for everything, because you have to micro better to have that extra second to keep up with more complex macro.

Can you afford the APM to do this early on? Will it hinder your micro? That's a choice, and if you're good enough to keep this up reliably while executing your build, and that 7% increase in minerals allows for a stronger build, then you deserve to win.
whatsgrackalackin420
Goggalor
Profile Joined August 2010
United States310 Posts
September 13 2010 08:34 GMT
#614
So what kind of difference are we talking about in game time wise?

Getting the first pylon up 1 second faster, and possibly a second or two saved on getting another worker out?

I don't see why people think something like this needs to be nerfed. If that second saved is what makes or breaks a game, then the person utilizing their amp in the first few minutes should be the winner. Otherwise, I simply don't think it will have that big of an effect since once you have 2 workers per patch the trick is useless.
We are a way for the cosmos to know itself - Carl Sagan
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
September 13 2010 08:38 GMT
#615
On September 13 2010 17:05 Fraidnot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 16:44 Klive5ive wrote:
Something to consider if you think this is stupid.
Any argument for taking this out can be used in exactly the same way to mineral patches being different efficiencies.

Everyone KNOWS that some patches mine faster than others.
How many actually bother to learn the patches on every map in order of speed?
Furthermore who works out how to create mining pairs first on the faster mineral patches before allowing the workers to saturate every mineral patch?

So Blizzard should just go and patch it so every mineral patch is exaclty the same distance from the base right? So we don't have to learn this pointless thing just to slightly boost mining.

I'd wager the pros memorize the ones that mine faster... sure maybe this only affects 300-500 people but can you say how it will change the game? I think any conclusions now are premature.

Yeah of course the pros do. If you watch Jaedong in BroodWar he always has his drones in pairs on the best mineral patches. Often in ZvZ you'll see the expo has 4 drones on 2 patches.

This is my point. There's already a mining advantage to be gained that is pretty boring and even super high level foreigners haven't bothered to do it.
Surely if you want to moan you should moan about that too. There's a bigger advantage to be gained from that technique than the 7% from this new one.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
Kadoka
Profile Joined October 2008
United States82 Posts
September 13 2010 08:39 GMT
#616
Just played four test games. Using slowest game speed and only 7 probes, I was able to get 400 minerals 4 seconds faster than normal using the trick.

On faster (standard game speed) using 11 scvs, it took me 5 seconds longer than usual to get to 2,000 minerals using the trick. Just a couple missclicks and all my intense scv microing left me off with a worse economy than I would have had if I had left it alone. And there's no way I could build, scout and micro while trying to keep track of all my workers command lists.

But it should be treated like spam. I wouldn't spam my workers unless there was absolutely nothing else to focus on in the game. You have to do it 100% perfect, or you'll end up slowing them down.
asdf
CadenZie
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)545 Posts
September 13 2010 08:39 GMT
#617
I think that slight boost is actually just the right boost I've been needing in ZvT...
I just beat 5rax reaper expand against a 1600 point Terran for the first time ever I always barely didn't have enough before...

...Or maybe he just messed up and it's a coincidence;)
Although if I think about him doing the trick and me not doing it... omg!
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-13 08:59:23
September 13 2010 08:42 GMT
#618
On September 13 2010 17:25 tehV wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 16:20 Jaeger wrote:
My experimental results seem to show the potential gain is larger than 7%.

A little math gives us a relative percent difference of mineral per second rate here as ~12.8% which seems much higher than 7%. Probably not possible to reach that level of efficiency in practice but seems interesting.


Part of the difference could be the snowball effect of being able to get each probe out a bit earlier. You could eliminate this by just doing the first 6 probes. This should give the theoretical raw mining-rate difference.

Mathematically Zerg should gain most from this trick early on since faster minerals allows faster subsequent drones so the advantage compounds (up to 12 supply and then larvae cuts you off).
But still it's only going to be 10% or so.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
September 13 2010 08:50 GMT
#619
I think this will help zerg players a lot. I see this really working out in every strategy I play.

5rr: faster expansion, because you can expand before the 5 roaches are running out. Having an expansion and a decent defence force.
15 hatch: Being able to use sockfolding twice within the first 5 minutes of the game will be devastating.
7 pool: I don’t know but I guess you can get an expansion or an extra hatchery in base because of sockfolding.


@ all whiners. Come on. Sockfolder should get a statue. When I read this, I was thinking by myself: “This is something the elitist on TL will love”. Seems I am wrong. Or we finally found a way to track all who should not be posting here.
@ all whiners who claim to have 200 apm but think this is “stupid”. HAHAHAHA.


Only when sockfolding becomes a balance issue it should get fixed. Props to OP.
I had a good night of sleep.
waffling1
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
599 Posts
September 13 2010 08:51 GMT
#620
On September 13 2010 17:39 Cadenza wrote:
I think that slight boost is actually just the right boost I've been needing in ZvT...
I just beat 5rax reaper expand against a 1600 point Terran for the first time ever I always barely didn't have enough before...

...Or maybe he just messed up and it's a coincidence;)
Although if I think about him doing the trick and me not doing it... omg!


only thing is, terran can do it too, and we're back on even footing..
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