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On September 13 2010 07:00 Ryzu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:55 Pandain wrote:On September 13 2010 06:51 iEchoic wrote:Another problem with this is that it's going to be very easy to exploit. You could write up a macro to queue these actions with any software that comes with any razer/logitech product and zip through your scvs doing this really easily. On September 13 2010 06:47 Sylvr wrote:On September 13 2010 06:42 iEchoic wrote:On September 13 2010 06:39 Sylvr wrote:
Why do idiots assume that this trick is mandatory? ...This trick is only going to be useful at high levels of play. It has no downside, only an upside. It's mandatory if you want to compete (which I do) . It just made the game less fun for me. Video games are for fun. If things like this are tedious to you, then I think you aren't as competitive as you think you are. I am competitive, but I don't take pride in out-clicking my opponent. I'm a thinking human being, and this is a strategy game, I'm not a robot mashing the big red button on hungry hungry hippos. Alright, but pretty sure those are illegal(I would hope so at the very least.) Congragulations, even businesses are doing better now! And this a RTS, but this is also an Real time strategy GAME. If you want to be competitive you should be able to master the game inside and out, and to the best of your ability be able to mine the best. Downsides? Oh my gosh, you can't be lazy for the first 3 minutes of the game! You actually have to do stuff! The way I see it this is another trick that can help differentiate the pros from the Joes, and will help increase the skill gap that will make SC2 live on. You may be right, and it may be a trick that can differentiate the 'pros from the joes,' but while you're making that argument, you're completely ignoring the direction Blizzard has taken from BW to SC2 in reducing button-mashing nonsensical things like this. I would be shocked if this weren't a bug, and even more surprised if it doesn't get patched.
Probably most of the tricks and amazing aspects of BW(muta stacking, (vulture micro?), dropship loading/unloading to its potential) were unintentional.
On September 13 2010 06:58 mahnini wrote:
someone please name an BW mechanic that was similar to this other than splitting workers because i honestly can't think of one.
I would just say making sure your workers mine when they pop out.
On September 13 2010 06:59 habermas wrote:
Select all workers, hold 'c' has the same effect and requires like 50 times less apm.
Also, what?
Is this confirmed? Just select workers and hold C?
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On September 13 2010 06:58 mahnini wrote:
someone please name an BW mechanic that was similar to this other than splitting workers because i honestly can't think of one.
actually back in bw there were maps that required worker ai fixing for optimal mining (most obviosuly longinus, top left and midright).
you could also have 2 scvs share 1 closer mineral patch (which is also in sc2) with some good timing.
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People on this forum are apparently unable to realize that something can cause a game to take more skill and still be a bad game design decision. The typical argument so far is "this increases the skill cap, therefore it's a good addition". I have a list of some other things that would greatly increase the skill gap:
1) None of your units have any AI. Every time an SCV returns minerals, he sits at the CC, waiting for you to return him to mine
2) Whenever you want to create a unit, you must solve a partial differential equation first.
3) An on-screen keyboard prompts you to play Fur Elise while macroing
If any of these things were implemented, this game's skill cap would go through the roof. It would be the most skill-intensive game ever created. But guess what? It would blow.
High skill cap != good design.
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On September 13 2010 06:59 habermas wrote:
Select all workers, hold 'c' has the same effect and requires like 50 times less apm.
Tried that actually, doesnt work probably due to input lag and whatnot.
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On September 13 2010 07:01 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:58 mahnini wrote:
someone please name an BW mechanic that was similar to this other than splitting workers because i honestly can't think of one. Why does it have to be similar to a BW mechanic? I think SC2 should make it's own high level mechanics such as sockfolding. Like almost every caster has "coined" (HD started saying this in his old BW casts), Starcraft is a game of seconds. Anywhere you can shave seconds puts you ahead of other players. Look at Jaedong in any ZvZ matchup. They can go identical build orders and do everything the same. The thing is that Jaedong will optimize anywhere he can. He'll have 6 zerglings out and across the map 3 seconds before his opponent.
people are making the comparison and i'd like to see where they are getting it from.
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On September 13 2010 07:03 Pandain wrote:
I would just say making sure your workers mine when they pop out.
That took almost zero effort compared to this. It's not really comparable.
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On September 13 2010 06:55 wxwx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:30 Fantistic wrote:On September 13 2010 06:25 wxwx wrote:boring repetitive crap. I spend my mining time chatting with friends/opponent, grabbing a drink, or whatever.. And now you're saying I can't anymore? Probably not gonna GL HF anymore too. That would put me back 20 minerals.  IMO this is bad for the game.. This isn't really micro, since you have nothing to micro against. It's basically just routine spamming that anyone can do with practice. There's no split-second decision making or reaction micro... It's just a predetermined clicking routine... Might as well award minerals to the player who types the alphabet backwards while droning... That's "keyboard skill" too am i right?  Let me summarise this: "I'm lazy." This Fantistic guy is probably button mashing @ his mineral line, thinking to himself how 'hard-working' he is while he moves his mouse across the desk at the speed of light. We're talking about a videogame. In the end, he's playing this game in his free time, with his ass in a chair.
we're also not talking about mr. casual who's playing 2v2's and rushing BC's every game. we're talking about Sen and Tester and Huk and TLO who need every second they can get.
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On September 13 2010 07:03 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:00 Ryzu wrote:On September 13 2010 06:55 Pandain wrote:On September 13 2010 06:51 iEchoic wrote:Another problem with this is that it's going to be very easy to exploit. You could write up a macro to queue these actions with any software that comes with any razer/logitech product and zip through your scvs doing this really easily. On September 13 2010 06:47 Sylvr wrote:On September 13 2010 06:42 iEchoic wrote:On September 13 2010 06:39 Sylvr wrote:
Why do idiots assume that this trick is mandatory? ...This trick is only going to be useful at high levels of play. It has no downside, only an upside. It's mandatory if you want to compete (which I do) . It just made the game less fun for me. Video games are for fun. If things like this are tedious to you, then I think you aren't as competitive as you think you are. I am competitive, but I don't take pride in out-clicking my opponent. I'm a thinking human being, and this is a strategy game, I'm not a robot mashing the big red button on hungry hungry hippos. Alright, but pretty sure those are illegal(I would hope so at the very least.) Congragulations, even businesses are doing better now! And this a RTS, but this is also an Real time strategy GAME. If you want to be competitive you should be able to master the game inside and out, and to the best of your ability be able to mine the best. Downsides? Oh my gosh, you can't be lazy for the first 3 minutes of the game! You actually have to do stuff! The way I see it this is another trick that can help differentiate the pros from the Joes, and will help increase the skill gap that will make SC2 live on. You may be right, and it may be a trick that can differentiate the 'pros from the joes,' but while you're making that argument, you're completely ignoring the direction Blizzard has taken from BW to SC2 in reducing button-mashing nonsensical things like this. I would be shocked if this weren't a bug, and even more surprised if it doesn't get patched. Probably most of the tricks and amazing aspects of BW(muta stacking, (vulture micro?), dropship loading/unloading to its potential) were unintentional. Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:58 mahnini wrote:
someone please name an BW mechanic that was similar to this other than splitting workers because i honestly can't think of one. I would just say making sure your workers mine when they pop out. Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:59 habermas wrote:
Select all workers, hold 'c' has the same effect and requires like 50 times less apm. Also, what?
Is this confirmed? Just select workers and hold C?
I'm pretty sure the pause is at the CC, not the minerals, so mashing C won't help.
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Has anybody even addressed the fact that this affects racial balance?
Different races benefit differently from an early 7% boost.
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On September 13 2010 07:04 iEchoic wrote:
People on this forum are apparently unable to realize that something can cause a game to take more skill and still be a bad game design decision. The typical argument so far is "this increases the skill cap, therefore it's a good addition". I have a list of some other things that would greatly increase the skill gap:
1) None of your units have any AI. Every time an SCV returns minerals, he sits at the CC, waiting for you to return him to mine
2) Whenever you want to create a unit, you must solve a partial differential equation first.
3) An on-screen keyboard prompts you to play Fur Elise while macroing
If any of these things were implemented, this game's skill cap would go through the roof. It would be the most skill-intensive game ever created. But guess what? It would blow.
High skill cap != good design.
Yeah, but that game would be lame and too hard and no one would want to play it.
Skill cap is good for a game, don't take it to the utmost extreme.
Also, I didn't imagine this outcry about this. I thought people would love this. Hmm.... thread in the making. I want to remind people this is not a strategy, it is a macro trick.
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On September 13 2010 06:58 mahnini wrote:
someone please name an BW mechanic that was similar to this other than splitting workers because i honestly can't think of one.
I remember a game of Jangbi where they showed his fpvod at the start, and he was basically doing something similar to this (same effect anyway): When this probe was returning to his minerals to mine he would click just in front of the minerals, and when it got there he would click on the minerals. This circumvented the deceleration of the probe and allowed it to begin mining faster. Obviously he couldn't do it to all of his probes so I guess it may have been for a certain troublesome mineral patch or something.
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If this trick was required in order to mine minerals, I would understand the complaining. But it is not. I doubt anyone will be able to pull this off effectively except the people that put in the absolute most effort and are in the absolute top level of players. I would guess that doesn't really include the people complaining. So, keep your shirts on and realize that there are ENDLESS amounts of similar macro and micro tricks that can be done in SC2, which you are unable to do. Why do you cry when you find out there is another one?
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On September 13 2010 06:55 TaimalaiX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:51 iEchoic wrote:
I am competitive, but I don't take pride in out-clicking my opponent. I'm a thinking human being, and this is a strategy game, I'm not a robot mashing the big red button on hungry hungry hippos. Clearly you're new to Hungry, Hungry Hippos. It's all about timing.
***** (Five stars!)
I think some people are missing the point. This is a mechanic that drops off quite a bit in the mid to late game. Once you get some scouting out, an army moving around, multiple unit producers, the time for this is far less. Not to mention it also has a drop off point once bases become saturated with workers.
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ppl are overreacting IMO
not really worth it beyond the 12+ food count unless you have superman clicking speed/accuracy
i can barely juggle 10 for very long w/o a misclick and i definitely cant juggle 10+ while building drones/scouting/executing my build
you can have your 1070 minerals, i'll take my 1000 and b satisfied
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Why are (some) people treating this as a bug that needs to be/will be patched? This is simply a technique to improve the mining efficiency of your workers by controlling them manually rather than letting the AI automatically return them to the base.
We expect that in a battle the player who micros his units will fare better than the one who simply a-moves.
It could be argued that this technique subtracts from the game, but this is not a bug. I would guess that the delay is due to the unit AI calculating where the worker should go next or something, not something you can just patch out.
I would guess that such a technique would have been possible in starcraft 1, except that the queue system was 'inferior' so it would be infeasible for practical use.
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Has anyone theorycrafting, besides the OP actually tried doing it with more then 2 workers?
After running through it 4-5 times, I managed to get a 10 Nexus (Adjacent to my starting nexus) at 1:45 cut down to...
A 10 Nexus at 1:44
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On September 13 2010 06:55 TaimalaiX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:51 iEchoic wrote:
I am competitive, but I don't take pride in out-clicking my opponent. I'm a thinking human being, and this is a strategy game, I'm not a robot mashing the big red button on hungry hungry hippos. Clearly you're new to Hungry, Hungry Hippos. It's all about timing.
Definitely. If you push too fast, the hippo never closes it's jaw and you end up with leakage. If you push too slow, you risk falling behind. I discovered that the key is to not to mash the button, but to hold on for about 1/4 of a second to ensure your hippo consumes it's food.
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On September 13 2010 07:04 iEchoic wrote:
People on this forum are apparently unable to realize that something can cause a game to take more skill and still be a bad game design decision. The typical argument so far is "this increases the skill cap, therefore it's a good addition". I have a list of some other things that would greatly increase the skill gap:
1) None of your units have any AI. Every time an SCV returns minerals, he sits at the CC, waiting for you to return him to mine
2) Whenever you want to create a unit, you must solve a partial differential equation first.
3) An on-screen keyboard prompts you to play Fur Elise while macroing
If any of these things were implemented, this game's skill cap would go through the roof. It would be the most skill-intensive game ever created. But guess what? It would blow.
High skill cap != good design.
Easy to play, hard to master.
Think about that line for a bit and realize why your straw-man is so flimsy.
Someone is going to complain no matter where they add/leave in these little quirks. In the end, they're all the same.
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On September 13 2010 07:07 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:04 iEchoic wrote:
People on this forum are apparently unable to realize that something can cause a game to take more skill and still be a bad game design decision. The typical argument so far is "this increases the skill cap, therefore it's a good addition". I have a list of some other things that would greatly increase the skill gap:
1) None of your units have any AI. Every time an SCV returns minerals, he sits at the CC, waiting for you to return him to mine
2) Whenever you want to create a unit, you must solve a partial differential equation first.
3) An on-screen keyboard prompts you to play Fur Elise while macroing
If any of these things were implemented, this game's skill cap would go through the roof. It would be the most skill-intensive game ever created. But guess what? It would blow.
High skill cap != good design. Yeah, but that game would be lame and too hard and no one would want to play it. Skill cap is good for a game, don't take it to the utmost extreme. Also, I didn't imagine this outcry about this. I thought people would love this. Hmm.... thread in the making. I want to remind people this is not a strategy, it is a macro trick.
A lot of us do love this but, where there are supporters, there is always going to be an opposition.
Supporters being players who want to an extra advantage over their opponents.
Opposers being players who are lazy and can't be bothered to implement a simple feature in order to get ahead or scared of having to put in more effort to be equal to their opponent.
Casuals, this is SC2. It's already been noobified and made much easier than BW. If you want to relax then play CoD or FarmVille.
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Sigh...
The argument people have against this is that it adds a mechanic which is tedious and menial in nature.
It's NOT that the people against it are lazy, and hate APM, and think everything should be done for them. It's that they don't think you should need to micromanage a feature which already exists.
Let's imagine for a second that the queen DOES auto-inject larvae. Except, the queen auto-injects larvae with a .5 second delay in comparison to when it is physically possible. Now imagine that if you want the queen to inject that .5 of a second faster, you need to spend 30 keystrokes every injection.
Mining is automated so that you can play the game. Would Starcraft be a good game if you had to manually send every worker to and from a mineral patch? Of course it wouldn't. That's why mining is done for you.
It is NOT that everyone has a problem with micromanagement, it's that people don't feel they should have to intensively babysit already automated tasks.
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EPT
