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United States73 Posts
On September 13 2010 07:18 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:15 Fantistic wrote:On September 13 2010 07:07 Pandain wrote:On September 13 2010 07:04 iEchoic wrote:
People on this forum are apparently unable to realize that something can cause a game to take more skill and still be a bad game design decision. The typical argument so far is "this increases the skill cap, therefore it's a good addition". I have a list of some other things that would greatly increase the skill gap:
1) None of your units have any AI. Every time an SCV returns minerals, he sits at the CC, waiting for you to return him to mine
2) Whenever you want to create a unit, you must solve a partial differential equation first.
3) An on-screen keyboard prompts you to play Fur Elise while macroing
If any of these things were implemented, this game's skill cap would go through the roof. It would be the most skill-intensive game ever created. But guess what? It would blow.
High skill cap != good design. Yeah, but that game would be lame and too hard and no one would want to play it. Skill cap is good for a game, don't take it to the utmost extreme. Also, I didn't imagine this outcry about this. I thought people would love this. Hmm.... thread in the making. I want to remind people this is not a strategy, it is a macro trick. A lot of us do love this but, where there are supporters, there are there are always going opposition. Supporters being players who want to an extra advantage over their opponents. Opposers being players who are lazy and can't be bothered to implement a simple feature in order to get ahead or scared of having to put in more effort to be equal to their opponent. Casuals, this is SC2. It's already been noobified and made much easier than BW. If you want to relax then play CoD or FarmVille. This post is retarded. If a player doesn't want an APM sink but wants to spend more time doing more interesting stuff (managing your base, your army, scouting etc.) he's instantly a 'casual CoD/farmville' player? I don't care about this feature/bug personally, but jesus christ dude, are you for real? Some players will like having APM sinks, some players won't. Being one of the former or latter won't instantly make you a 100% casual player who's only able to play mindless FPS games. Really, it's true.
I don't think the OP was suggesting that they were "casual CoD/farmville" players. He's merely suggesting that they can play those games instead if they want an easier game. It's not really questionable that farmville and CoD are easier games than starcraft 2.
I'm loving the find, this should give me something better to do than just drawing boxes.
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On September 13 2010 07:25 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:19 Fantistic wrote:On September 13 2010 07:18 vyyye wrote:On September 13 2010 07:15 Fantistic wrote:On September 13 2010 07:07 Pandain wrote:On September 13 2010 07:04 iEchoic wrote:
People on this forum are apparently unable to realize that something can cause a game to take more skill and still be a bad game design decision. The typical argument so far is "this increases the skill cap, therefore it's a good addition". I have a list of some other things that would greatly increase the skill gap:
1) None of your units have any AI. Every time an SCV returns minerals, he sits at the CC, waiting for you to return him to mine
2) Whenever you want to create a unit, you must solve a partial differential equation first.
3) An on-screen keyboard prompts you to play Fur Elise while macroing
If any of these things were implemented, this game's skill cap would go through the roof. It would be the most skill-intensive game ever created. But guess what? It would blow.
High skill cap != good design. Yeah, but that game would be lame and too hard and no one would want to play it. Skill cap is good for a game, don't take it to the utmost extreme. Also, I didn't imagine this outcry about this. I thought people would love this. Hmm.... thread in the making. I want to remind people this is not a strategy, it is a macro trick. A lot of us do love this but, where there are supporters, there are there are always going opposition. Supporters being players who want to an extra advantage over their opponents. Opposers being players who are lazy and can't be bothered to implement a simple feature in order to get ahead or scared of having to put in more effort to be equal to their opponent. Casuals, this is SC2. It's already been noobified and made much easier than BW. If you want to relax then play CoD or FarmVille. This post is retarded. If a player doesn't want an APM sink but wants to spend more time doing more interesting stuff (managing your base, your army, scouting etc.) he's instantly a 'casual CoD/farmville' player? I don't care about this feature/bug personally, but jesus christ dude, are you for real? Some players will like having APM sinks, some players won't. Being one of the former or latter won't instantly make you a 100% casual player who's only able to play mindless FPS games. Really, it's true. My point: SC2 isn't a game for relaxation. SC2 wasn't a game for relaxation yesterday either, when this feature was unknown.
Exactly.
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Im not sure but correct me if I'm wrong...I tried this with gas and it seems to work as well with the Shift-Clicking Back to Extractor technique...It seems to be faster I dont know if im right, though it is a lot harder to do
Nonetheless, its a great find will help out with increasing the skill cap of this game and overall the game itself making it better :D
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On September 13 2010 07:02 wxwx wrote:
just wanted to add something.. i am your decent player but not top/pro level.
i find a lot of tricks really cool, like keeping charge on void ray.. extending zealot charge range.. block expo with worker. After finding out about these I remember loading up the game and trying them right away.
These are so much more admirable/elegant than being able to click on mineral patches..
I am that same decent player (I think^^). I'd even say I am not that decent - just mediocre.
And if you are not topnotch - the mechanic doesnt matter to you.
Is your worker at the place where it has to build the building at _exactly_ the time you have the money for it? Do you have 120 minerals when you build a pylon/overlord/supply depot, becaue you issued the move command too late? Sorry - you just gave all the advantage away you had from this trick. It therefore doesnt even affect newbies - they have alot of other things to improve. They dont gain anything for doing this - therefore they dont need to learn it.
It's just a small edge to really really competetive players who have pristine mechanics. It will never affect my gameplay 
@iEchoic:
About your macroing with keyboards argument:
It affects other aspects of the game also. How do you inject larva for multiple hatcheries? I personally just go to the hatch - select the queen via hotkey press V and select the hatch. Then go to the next one.
Now look at this Video - (the way to do it is in the description). Imagine someone creating a macro for this with his keyboard. It's an advantage. He hits one button - I have to do it manually.
According to you defenition it adds nothing to the game. It's just a mechanical difficulty. And the keyboard is giving an advantage.
There are a lot of examples where having superior mechanics gives you an advantage.
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This reminds me of LCancelling in ssbm... No reason NOT to do it, but it's still an integral part of the game even though it's a mechanic thing that requires no decision making, and consequently still seperates the good players from the bad.
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To all the people calling this mindless and pointless and suggesting that other random stupid things could be substituted as a "trick", think about it this way:
Your workers are not as good at optimizing mining in the same way that your army is not as good at optimizing a battle. I think everyone can agree that a battle with your army in which you are manually arranging your position and picking what targets your units attack is more effective (if you're doing it right) than an Attack-Moved army.
Same principle.
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I just tried the shift right clicking the minerals (without C)
It does make the SCV return immediately, but it will not queue for multiple trips.
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I just tried this out and it works. Nice find! A 7% advantage (if correct) is quite a lot in a game where the smallest advantage makes the biggest difference.
Very useful in the early game when there is only one worker per patch. I guessing the delay at the mineral patch before returning to the hatch/CC/nex is to get the return timing in sync with a second worker sharing the same patch, so if my understanding is correct it isn't efficient use this when mining is optimal (2 workers per patch) or it'll create havoc in the mineral line. Both workers will eventually catch up with one another at the mineral patch and the A.I. for one worker will seek out a a free patch to mine.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
obviously this isnt something you want to be doing when the game really kicks off but it could help you start your build order a little quicker. i mean that can actually help quite a bit especially in mirror so its not completely useless. good find.
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On September 13 2010 07:36 Sylvr wrote:
To all the people calling this mindless and pointless and suggesting that other random stupid things could be substituted as a "trick", think about it this way:
Your workers are not as good at optimizing mining in the same way that your army is not as good at optimizing a battle. I think everyone can agree that a battle with your army in which you are manually arranging your position and picking what targets your units attack is more effective (if you're doing it right) than an Attack-Moved army.
Same principle.
This is where it comes down to game design. Microing an army is 'fun'. Telling workers to come back to base 10 milliseconds faster is not 'fun'. There's a big difference there. If this was fun I'd be all for it.
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On September 13 2010 07:36 Seth_ wrote:
I just tried the shift right clicking the minerals (without C)
It does make the SCV return immediately, but it will not queue for multiple trips.
I also got the same result. The fact that it won't queue means that, if you're using this method, you have to do it once for each SCV on each trip. Doing it with just my 6 SCVs (no production) for 4 minutes, I had a 4.4% increase in mining efficiency, but there were a few mistakes / missed shift+clicks in there, which can probably account for the lost efficiency.
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never gonna get good at this game 
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"Only requires actions when you have them to spare (very early game)."
I don't play SC2, but I noticed in Brood War top pro's would have crazy APM, but spend it on just spend it on a few things. They mostly spam unnecessarily to look cool or whatever. I think you can find more time to use this technique than you would think, if you really tried.
Will Blizzard patch the delay, or just leave this technique in for APM players ?
Great thread, this will maybe revolutionize plays like muta micro revolutionized brood war
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Maybe that'll give APM spammers something constructive to do at the start instead of artificially increasing their APM!
Nice find, must perfect it!
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7% - thats pretty big early game.
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On September 13 2010 07:42 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:36 Sylvr wrote:
To all the people calling this mindless and pointless and suggesting that other random stupid things could be substituted as a "trick", think about it this way:
Your workers are not as good at optimizing mining in the same way that your army is not as good at optimizing a battle. I think everyone can agree that a battle with your army in which you are manually arranging your position and picking what targets your units attack is more effective (if you're doing it right) than an Attack-Moved army.
Same principle. This is where it comes down to game design. Microing an army is 'fun'. Telling workers to come back to base 10 milliseconds faster is not 'fun'. There's a big difference there. If this was fun I'd be all for it.
So watching the probes' asses for 2 minutes is more fun than telling them to do something. I find turtle terran vs turtle terran extremely boring, we should take out any option to turtle from the game.
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The only time you would have time for this is when you have 6-12 workers. The cashflow during this time will be minimal, and +7% of minimal cashflow is miniscule. Not worth the effort.
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I really hope Blizzard patches out the worker delay glitch, I can't stand repetitive mindless tasks...
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I don't know what people think that competitive games are.
Yes, they are about winning - but they are also about wanting to win. There exist many activities which require more skill than Starcraft BW and Starcraft 2. This is an undeniable fact. Fucking flash games where you mash a button really fast require more skill than these games. So why? Why do you play Starcraft?
I thought I knew, but apparently I don't. I must be a casual gamer, guess I should play Farmville.
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EPT
