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On August 23 2010 13:00 dartoo wrote:
@WCH Yeah that might work quite well too. Lol,almost everyone is going to be doing this on the ladder. I remember when HD posted his worker rush video,I went through 8-9 games with people scv rushing,and were shocked when it failed.
Wonder if a terrans in korea have done this strat against zergs...
all types of reaper openings can be seen in korea. most of these "innovative" strats originate on the asian servers
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On August 23 2010 13:00 dartoo wrote:
@WCH Yeah that might work quite well too. Lol,almost everyone is going to be doing this on the ladder. I remember when HD posted his worker rush video,I went through 8-9 games with people scv rushing,and were shocked when it failed.
Wonder if a terrans in korea have done this strat against zergs...
you have no idea how aggressive korean terrans are..?
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On August 23 2010 12:50 SC2Phoenix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote:
Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. Theirs so many other examples to prove you wrong but its not even worth it. Actually, there's no way to prove my example wrong since I said they serve overlapping roles. That doesn't mean they serve identical roles. I should have clarified - safe to yank the Reaper and let the Hellion serve its role. More balanced time on harassment and no cliff gimmicks.
I'm sure every T in the forum will disagree however...
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IMO this Reaper's build is really an intricate thing. Perhaps it's really hard to stop especially in high level of play, but if it will be nerfed, then the question is how?
If Reaper is off the equation against Z then then early game T will be left only with Hellion which is not that hard to counter IMO. And macro wise, if T can not stop Z from expanding then it's GG for T.
Well, I'm not a high level player so I don't have a good understanding of the game yet :D So I don't know. Currently I'm as Terran player really struggling against Zerg :D
Well, grats for Morrow anyway, although I would love to see Zerg won that
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Dimaga #1 Terran in Europe. ^^
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@sk:There is a certain degree of overlap, but best of luck trying to take down a pylon with 3 hellions,and retreating fast.
@Rlag,:Most of the replays I watch are from EU/NA. If they are so aggressive then the korean zergs are doing something zergs arent doing here.
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you don't need to gg at a lan event if you just go and shake hands after. it doesn't make much sense to say gg at all in game at a lan.
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if this turns out to be imbalanced maybe a good nerf would be the range of the reaper building attack
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Let them remove the D8 charges and replace them with researchable mines 
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thanks for the spoiler 
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On August 23 2010 11:18 Onlinejaguar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:11 GhoSt[shield] wrote:On August 23 2010 11:02 Mouth wrote:
he even says that the reaper build is imba and should be nerfed soon. good interview and another good WoC. Pretty amazing he learned that build last minute and used it pretty well (unless I misunderstood and dimaga showed him that build well in advance of the lan) OR the reaper opening is extremely easy to learn as you only need to learn the basic BO and then remember to make scvs and learn how to reaper micro. On top of that you get taught the build by very impressive T and Z players who have practiced with each other so much on mTw that they have learned the build inside out. Seems fairly ezpz, not impressive to me. I agree the strat seems a bit easy. Against most zerg its going to own them straight up. Players like IdrA and Dimaga are sooooo skilled yet can only stop it "IF" the Terran player makes a few mistakes and they play it perfectly. It really is very clear that reapers are imbalanced in TvZ.
In other words:
To beat a skilled Zerg player such as Idra in a tournament such as this requires an ability that 99% of Terrans don't have. Morrow deserves credit and a ton of it.
In addition, Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
Let's see how this Reaper harass works for everybody in the weeks to come, because we all know it'll be abused from this point forward. I'd invite anybody here to tell me if they are Terran and if they can just simply ROLL fantastic Zergs because of how "easy" it is with Reapers.
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Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
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On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
just wait for the patch when reapers are nerfed
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On August 23 2010 14:24 zalu wrote:
...Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
It's obvious that the 5 rax reaper build, in conjunction with all the other openings Terran has is imbalanced. Morrow knows this, and freely admits it, there isn't any issue though. As mentioned, he's a top tier player who was playing for thousands of dollars in the first major tourney for SC2, and he took idrA, who is arguably the best SC2 player right now; people complaining about him "cheesing" are being rediculous, it's not Morrow's responsibility to balance the game.
To clarify, the problem with 5 rax reaper is that it transitions into a bio/mech expansion build so easily. Zerg has nothing like this. 6 pool is about as strong as 5 rax reaper in terms of agression, but it's truly all in, and fast roach isn't viable at the pro level. Basically Terran can go fast mass helions -> delayed expansion mech, 5 Rax Reaper -> expansion bio/mech, MM -> fast expand bio/mech (also a fast expand Mech timing push is insanely strong as well, though it's unlike the previous BOs as it doesn't put heavy pressure on the opponent). Zerg's only opening that puts a similar level of opening pressure on Terran is 6 pool, which is a true do or die all in; that's where the problem lies. Once you get to mid game the MU seems balanced, but the early game needs some tweaking.
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On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
..... jesus dude the whole reason idra lost was because of the reapers. game 4 idra lost because he thought it was going to be reapers. that would have been stopped dead in its tracks if idra knew 2 or 3 minutes before hand. even morrow himself says that build is imbalanced.
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On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
Excellent points, and yes idrA wasn't playing his A game. In many ways it looked like he wanted to loose, his GG in game 1 was very premature, we've all seen games turn around from where idrA was.
I still contend that the transition from 5 rax reaper into an expanding biomech build is too easy though, if you put that much pressure on your opponent it just seems like you should take a bigger econ hit then the Terran takes from the build.
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On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
zerg is not the race that requires the least micro skill. you can tell the difference in a fight vs. bio between dimaga's baneling use and idras. dimaga would kill the entire bio ball, and have like 5 banelings and 15 lings, and idra would lose with like 5 marauders left over.
what do you mean Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals? why is helping another player shameful?
but yes, a poor player will have no ability to continuously pressure a zerg, while also getting up the expo, and not losing reapers, and being able to stop the zerg from pushing back. besides, since zergs have been able to stop mech as of late, it's still way too early to say that it's imbalanced, but zerg don't have a proper response yet.
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MorroW's reapers probably aren't imbalanced. Like others pointed out, the reapers really only did serious damage to IdrA in one of the three games. Granted, in the blistering sands game, it caused IdrA's macro to slip, but if IdrA had a little more APM, then that wouldn't have happened.
But, I think people can get quite a bit better at microing reapers than that. Like, oGs.Ensnare's reaper control makes it look really imbalanced.
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On August 23 2010 14:24 zalu wrote:
In other words:
To beat a skilled Zerg player such as Idra in a tournament such as this requires an ability that 99% of Terrans don't have. Morrow deserves credit and a ton of it.
In addition, Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
There has been no balance changes since Phase 2 of the Beta began. Yet, in that time there is more and more concern that Terran is overpowered. What is going on?
Reapers are a microcosm of what is going on. When the beta began, reapers were considered "horrible" and people called for reapers to be removed from the game because no one uses them. Now, they are 'overpowered'.
As players get more comfortable with the units and races, micro skill is improving. Terran units reward micro play such as reapers (as well as stimming infantry, banshees, siege tanks and other units). Protoss units don't really have that high need of micro (with the exception of high templars and stalkers). You cannot do that much with a zealot or an immortal. With Zerg, there is less need for micro. Aside from zerglings and mutalisks, there is very little to micro. Ultralisks, hyralisks, and roaches somewhat are essentially attack move.
The fix to the 'imbalance' issues is to give races, especially the zerg, some micro intensive units or abilities. Since Terran has all the micro intensive units, it is no wonder why their units can dance around other units if a player has good micro.
The most micro intensive units for the Zerg are zerglings, mutalisks, infestors, and banelings. Note how these are the favored units for high level Zerg play. Why? Because they reward micro skill.
Let's see how this Reaper harass works for everybody in the weeks to come, because we all know it'll be abused from this point forward. I'd invite anybody here to tell me if they are Terran and if they can just simply ROLL fantastic Zergs because of how "easy" it is with Reapers.
I've been using reaper openings for weeks. In team games, there are many Terran players who always have been using reaper openings. They only work if the player is so stupid that he sits there and lets his harvestors get killed by a few reapers. In 1v1, they only work if the player cannot micro against them. They are pretty easy to shut down. And they are a death sentence if a player keeps using them (as we saw many Terran losses during the tournament because they chose to go reapers).
If players aren't using reapers all the time by now, they likely never will. Reaper use is too risky as they take so much concentration and the slightest mistake is 'gg' for you.
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On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote:
lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame.
they way i understood it (and remeber MorroWs english like most europeans isnt perfect) and i think chill pointed a bit in that direction, was that MorroW and idrA had a bit of a gruge, idrA calling MorroW a bad player, MorroW calling him a untalanted (which one who started it is unclear, might been morrow might been idrA), however then in sc 2 artosis made an practice match between them and idrA won/lost (dont remeber which) MorroW took it badly since they allready was shakey ground.
IF IM WRONG I APOLOGISE BUT THIS IS TH WAY I UNDERSTOOD IT FROM THE INTERVIEW.
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EPT
