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On August 23 2010 14:55 phungus420 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
Excellent points, and yes idrA wasn't playing his A game. In many ways it looked like he wanted to loose, his GG in game 1 was very premature, we've all seen games turn around from where idrA was. I still contend that the transition from 5 rax reaper into an expanding biomech build is too easy though, if you put that much pressure on your opponent it just seems like you should take a bigger econ hit then the Terran takes from the build.
I'm sorry but did you bother to watch the replay? Morrow was 28 workers ahead of Idra when he gg'd.
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United States83 Posts
On August 23 2010 14:59 aznhockeyboy16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga. zerg is not the race that requires the least micro skill. you can tell the difference in a fight vs. bio between dimaga's baneling use and idras. dimaga would kill the entire bio ball, and have like 5 banelings and 15 lings, and idra would lose with like 5 marauders left over. what do you mean Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals? why is helping another player shameful? but yes, a poor player will have no ability to continuously pressure a zerg, while also getting up the expo, and not losing reapers, and being able to stop the zerg from pushing back. besides, since zergs have been able to stop mech as of late, it's still way too early to say that it's imbalanced, but zerg don't have a proper response yet.
Concerning Dimaga, I mean if it was true he was trying to get Morrow to do a certain build in the finals in order to influence Blizzard. I don't think it is the right thing to do. And I don't think Blizzard will be influenced anyway. Blizzard will look and see two Zerg players in the top three, and they would see that the final games were hard fought (except for the last one but that didn't use any reapers).
About the zerg race requiring least micro, I am not referring to player skill. I am just pointing at how the units are designed. Zerg units are just two dimensional and are pretty bland. A good micro player cannot do as much with those units. Whereas a good micro player can do so much more with Terran units (such as reapers). And it is THIS that is the 'imbalance'.
I think the solution is to give the Zerg (and even Protoss) some more micro-intensive abilities or units. I also think the mirror matches bring to light this issue. Which is the most interesting and dynamic of the mirror match ups? T v T. Which is the most boring? Z v Z. More micro intensive units or abilities would flesh the non-Terran races out.
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Funny you would say that because baneling wars are very micro intensive.
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I do find it quite amusing that 3 weeks ago many people here were saying that there was no use making more than 1-2 reapers and that they were useless outside of the first harass. Naturally the metagame is still evolving. It does seem to hilight yet again how flexible and robust Terran is turning out to be though, while there seems to have been fewer changes in Z/P strategies since the release.
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There's an easy way to manage reapers effectiveness for Blizzard though. Just change less cliffs to be jumpable if they want to make them worse.
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On August 23 2010 14:55 phungus420 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
Excellent points, and yes idrA wasn't playing his A game. In many ways it looked like he wanted to loose, his GG in game 1 was very premature, we've all seen games turn around from where idrA was. I still contend that the transition from 5 rax reaper into an expanding biomech build is too easy though, if you put that much pressure on your opponent it just seems like you should take a bigger econ hit then the Terran takes from the build.
Are you saying Idra didnt want to win? absolutely rediculous. A high prestige tournament and $5k on the line and you think he didnt want to win? hahaha he never likes to lose.
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On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
One of the most clueless posts i've ever read in the sc2 forums and that's saying ALOT. You know NOTHING about starcraft why are you even here?
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I Would love to see some new strats from zerg players to counter this mass reaper strat.... Maybe some burrowed banelings could work... there are no real units that properly counter reapers on zerg's T1 (lings, roaches or banelings).
There was a big difference between Morrow's Reaper micro against idrA compared to the semi-finals. Maybe that is Dimaga's advice to Morrow that ppl is talking about... The fact is that idrA was using 2, (and sometimes 3) control groups to kill those reapers while Morrow was using just 1.
I don't really know if Reapers are OP or not... time will tell... but it's SO stressfull for a zerg.. I think i would have cried if i was on idrA's position xD
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I've got a pretty safe build I use for all terran openings that adapts really well. I feel like idra somewhat has the same build, but he could streamline it a little to get a few more roaches out earlier and not rely so much on lings. I also felt like idra was needlessly chasing reapers off of creep. I think the key is to just stay on the creep and ward the reapers away.
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On August 23 2010 11:25 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:21 elderbre wrote:
It may be for amateurs like you and me, but in a professional competition it's within fairplay and code of conduct, this is the same as any sport, and I think we want to consider e-sports also a part of sports. It should only be GG if you felt it was a GG, saying GG when you felt the game was bad is rather false and unnecessary imo. I mean does it really hurt a player if his opponent doesn't GG? he probably won't or at least shouldn't care since he's won anyway. edit: sorry for slight off topic, i'll shuttup about it now
Ehh, how about no?
Thats like saying tennis players shouldn't always thank their opponent after the game. Only if they feel there is something to thank for.
saying GG is just a way of showing respect. It's not the actual word GOOD game that the focus should be on but rather the act of respect like in any other professional (e) sport.
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Funny you would say that because baneling wars are very micro intensive.
True, but the current zvz is a macro game now either roach/muta/ling, or roach/hydra/infestor. People have found a way to get roaches/defense fast enough and in numbers to nullify any number of banelings.
On the GG protocols, i do it, even when i'm upset, just cause i'm nice. In high level tournaments and stuff, it should be mandatory like in proleague as the accepted way of surrender. It does give a more professionalism to the game, and helps make it not 2 kids fighting over a snickers. Leaving the game and/or watching all your buildings get killed is more humiliating to me than just conceding.
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On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote:
A whole bunch of BS.
Many high level players have bad micro? Really?
Zerg requires the least micro skill? Really?
Really, terran is the only micro intensive race?
Reapers are not significantly hard to use. It doesn't take amazing gosu micro to use them against zerg. It takes more micro to use them against protoss because of stalkers.
What game have you been playing?
T players in beta were abusing reactor pushes because they were way too fast. After that got nerfed they were still trying to MMM, and one can remember the objections they had to using mech. "marines are necessary against mutas" To an extent this was true, but they said that even mixing in tanks would be death. Thor buffs // splash was pretty necessary. However the turrets were probably overbuffed. Everything that was whined about from T perspective was buffed or nerfed respectively. Roaches were significantly too strong, but they got over nerfed. Nydus play was fine, but apparently it was too hard to counter, so now they are fragile as shit and take forever to build. Collos destroyed MM so they got a range nerf. Storm was too powerful against MMM as well so that got significant nerfs.
Then T players found out, oh we can use emp and reapers too. And hellions arnt as bad as we thought.
It's not that micro skill has been improving. It's that people are becoming more familiar with the game // units. Way back when, even when zerg was OP with the roaches and other stuff some of the more foward looking pros said that terran would be the strongest race. Since then they had nothing but buffs and the other races were nerfed.
Now you wonder why issues exist?
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On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote:
lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame.
Why should IdrA "gg" if it wasn't a good game? That's just stupid. Would be better to write "bg" in that case.
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On August 23 2010 11:26 MisterPuppy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote:
Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. so do colossus and high templar, but they also have many differences.
And yet they wont add in lurker because it will overlap the banelings role?
banelings dont overlap nearly as directly...
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Jesus, the reaper already takes like a minute to be built. No more nerfs to it. >:[
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On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining.
how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot..
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On August 23 2010 17:51 ZergSecks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote:
lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame. Why should IdrA "gg" if it wasn't a good game? That's just stupid. Would be better to write "bg" in that case.
I'll bring up Chill's example.
Imagine a football/basketball/whatever game, after the game every player will shake hands with the opposing team. One asshole decides that no, it wasn't a good game so he just storms off.
Doesn't that just show how much of an immature prick he is? Rather than "Oh well, he thought it was a bad game". Considering the high regard for e-sports here, a lot of folks seem to have forgotten the very basics of behaving yourselves within sports.
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On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot..
Indeed.
I seriously don't see how extra queens are going to work, yes you may be able to hold off reapers for a while, but then what?
You have these defensive queens, wich aside from transfusion don't really do anything. (since with a good amount of queens, you already have enough creep tumors.
So ye cool, what now, the Terran even has more mapcontrol and the zerg is in even a more defensive position. This is a big issue, a big part of reapers is that they give the T complete mapcontrol for as long as they are alive. And you are suggesting something that makes that even worse?
And then what, your lair is incredibly delayed, Oh hay cloaked banshee's, yes you can make spore crawlers, but then what? take a third? Okay, now i'm even more spread out.
And in all this time Terran has been able to do whatever he wants, since there is no threat at all from the zerg.
And if he counters with roaches/speedlings, it is gonna be delayed because of all those mins that went into queens, and T will be able to react.
That is just my reasoning why mass queens just doesn't seem like a good idea, but that might be just me.
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On August 23 2010 18:33 vyyye wrote:
I'll bring up Chill's example.
Imagine a football/basketball/whatever game, after the game every player will shake hands with the opposing team. One asshole decides that no, it wasn't a good game so he just storms off.
Doesn't that just show how much of an immature prick he is? Rather than "Oh well, he thought it was a bad game". Considering the high regard for e-sports here, a lot of folks seem to have forgotten the very basics of behaving yourselves within sports.
I would have no quibbles about shaking hands but saying the words GG wouldn't always be appropriate, perhaps some other thing like *shake hand* i'd be fine with that.
It doesn't make you more mature if you say gg and still think the other guy played like a douche it just makes you more reserved.
Also most times just say gg as a mechanical reaction so it really loses its impact and meaning. A handshake is just a formality without the connotations of gg attached.
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EPT
