EPTDjWheat's content is abso-fucking-lutely amazing. I started out just watching WOC w' Chill as co-host but then I started watching LO3 (live on 3) and Epilectic Gaming and call and brawl... Holy shit man this guy really knows his shit, and if he doesn't he actually LISTENS to people who do know what they're talking about. It's excellent stuff and you MUST watch it if you're in to gaming at all (especially Weapon of Choice for strictly SC2 nerds). Day9's shows are amazing as well but Wheat's are different but just as entertaining as Day9 dailies.
Interesting MorroW interview with DjWheat - Page 8
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MacroNcheesE
United States508 Posts
DjWheat's content is abso-fucking-lutely amazing. I started out just watching WOC w' Chill as co-host but then I started watching LO3 (live on 3) and Epilectic Gaming and call and brawl... Holy shit man this guy really knows his shit, and if he doesn't he actually LISTENS to people who do know what they're talking about. It's excellent stuff and you MUST watch it if you're in to gaming at all (especially Weapon of Choice for strictly SC2 nerds). Day9's shows are amazing as well but Wheat's are different but just as entertaining as Day9 dailies. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
The point of "mass queens" is NOT to win against the Reapers, but rather keeping them busy while not losing defensive units to the aggression (and thus having to rebuild them = wasted resources). Having these solid and long-lived defenders like Spine Crawlers and Queens will buy the Zerg enough time to build up lots of economy and / or to get Mutalisks out quickly. If you manage that you practically win against the squishy Reapers, because they cant shoot back. If the Terran "answers" this threat by getting Marines, Thors or Vikings he is watering down the Reaper aggression so that it becomes useless. In all cases it is a win for the Zerg because they survived the aggression and the Terran has to figure out what to do with the surviving Reapers. The logical tech switch for Terrans is obviously Marauders because they can demolish a base rather fast and with their high hp they can survive decently, but since you are already getting Mutalisks to counter Reapers you have a good head start of useful units to counter them. Obviously Mutalisks arent great against Marauders, but they can always put pressure back on the Terran to force him to build defenses. With your high number of Queens you already have a good supply of heals for your Mutas, so the advantage is on your side. | ||
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nybbas
United States71 Posts
On August 24 2010 18:31 Rabiator wrote: The point of "mass queens" is NOT to win against the Reapers, but rather keeping them busy while not losing defensive units to the aggression (and thus having to rebuild them = wasted resources). Having these solid and long-lived defenders like Spine Crawlers and Queens will buy the Zerg enough time to build up lots of economy and / or to get Mutalisks out quickly. If you manage that you practically win against the squishy Reapers, because they cant shoot back. If the Terran "answers" this threat by getting Marines, Thors or Vikings he is watering down the Reaper aggression so that it becomes useless. In all cases it is a win for the Zerg because they survived the aggression and the Terran has to figure out what to do with the surviving Reapers. The logical tech switch for Terrans is obviously Marauders because they can demolish a base rather fast and with their high hp they can survive decently, but since you are already getting Mutalisks to counter Reapers you have a good head start of useful units to counter them. Obviously Mutalisks arent great against Marauders, but they can always put pressure back on the Terran to force him to build defenses. With your high number of Queens you already have a good supply of heals for your Mutas, so the advantage is on your side. Idra should have hired you to give him some pointers, seeing how you have it all figured out. If mass speedlings/roaches aren't going to counter this, what makes you think an even squishier extra queen will? Reapers can micro against them just as well, and murder them, even faster than they can roaches. Then fast tech to a spire, while doing all of this? tell me how are we getting queens out, and teching a lair at the same time? are you playing the same game? Basically you are banking on the terran doing absolutely nothing but building reapers, not teching or expanding AT ALL himself, and somehow the queens... (and did you really suggest crawlers?!) are going to hold them off better than roaches and speedlings, to magically afford a spire... have you EVER played as zerg? | ||
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
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nybbas
United States71 Posts
On August 24 2010 18:27 AdamFox wrote: Yeah, it was an extremely interesting interview. I knew of the flame that Morrow got, especially for his TSL2 placement. But, in SC2 he's been extremely powerful and extremely crafty. I think this kid has what it takes to become one of the top SC2 players in the world, if he tries hard enough. I love IdrA and his complaints aren't unfounded, but Morrow is an excellent player who's shown results from beta and especially now... So even IdrA can't deny him of that (even though that reaper shit was/is lame). DjWheat's content is abso-fucking-lutely amazing. I started out just watching WOC w' Chill as co-host but then I started watching LO3 (live on 3) and Epilectic Gaming and call and brawl... Holy shit man this guy really knows his shit, and if he doesn't he actually LISTENS to people who do know what they're talking about. It's excellent stuff and you MUST watch it if you're in to gaming at all (especially Weapon of Choice for strictly SC2 nerds). Day9's shows are amazing as well but Wheat's are different but just as entertaining as Day9 dailies. I definitely agree with you that Morrow is a good player, and anyone who criticizes him for using the tools that are given, unbalanced or not, is an idiot. They are not playing this game for fun, they are playing to win, to make a living. If you don't use every tool at your disposal, within the boundaries of the game, you are just a moron. | ||
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TheDna
Germany577 Posts
On August 24 2010 18:31 Rabiator wrote: The point of "mass queens" is NOT to win against the Reapers, but rather keeping them busy while not losing defensive units to the aggression (and thus having to rebuild them = wasted resources). Its not the reapers being the problem if you amss queens. You will loose horrible vs the marauder push specially because they are totally awesome vs queens. Building mass queens will even be a worse resource waste. This is also the reason roaches are so bad defending the reapers, the marauder push will simply totally own you. | ||
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jamesltl
Malaysia159 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On August 24 2010 12:50 imPERSONater wrote: Interesting to hear Dimaga helped MorroW out and really a great display of sportsmanship. I guess Dimaga really is the nicest person in the world :D And I do agree reapers are very hard to deal with. The only redeeming quality of that opening is it almost forces the terran to do a bio build after (if it gets held off). I think all zergs would agree they would MUCH rather face bio than mech at this point. If the reapers were made a little less powerful I it seems fine to stay in the game imo. If I had to fix it, I would make their range = to a roach, or lower movement speed so they couldn't infinitely kite the roaches. it was more like dimaga had 3 good reasons to help me: 1: he wanted to world to see how terran is imba 2: if idra lost then it wouldnt make dimaga look as "bad" to lose against me 3: dimaga had a zvt for 3rd place and i dont think he could found a better practice partner than me to prepare for it so he tells me more in detail how i should tech switch depending on what zerg does and more in detail, while i already knew the base structures of the build from talking to demu artosis and other ppl. so yes we teamwork so i can win finals and he can win 3rd place nobody is just manner and helps someone in the finals for no reason, he cheered for zerg user but wanted terran to win for other reasons :D regarless the reasons im still very happy to have madfrog haypro dimaga and other zergs just be there for me before the finals and just help me if u 1base muta seems good vs mass reaper, but terran scouts it and switch to marine ghost on 1base and they can own u hard :D reapers create more issues in this game than solving, they are mostly just cool but dont really make gameplay better at all. if u ask me it would help if they got nerfed for the early stages and lets say get a new upgrade for late game like spider mines (im not saying they should get spider mines im just saying they should get some purpose to be built in later game) or whatever to make them viable there. they can jump up and down cliffs but that doesnt mean its a brilliantly designed unit, infact its pretty much the most obvious and straight forward unit in the game with so few dynamics | ||
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Nakama
Germany584 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Sieziggy
United States53 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On August 24 2010 22:15 MorroW wrote: it was more like dimaga had 3 good reasons to help me: 1: he wanted to world to see how terran is imba 2: if idra lost then it wouldnt make dimaga look as "bad" to lose against me 3: dimaga had a zvt for 3rd place and i dont think he could found a better practice partner than me to prepare for it so he tells me more in detail how i should tech switch depending on what zerg does and more in detail, while i already knew the base structures of the build from talking to demu artosis and other ppl. so yes we teamwork so i can win finals and he can win 3rd place nobody is just manner and helps someone in the finals for no reason, he cheered for zerg user but wanted terran to win for other reasons :D regarless the reasons im still very happy to have madfrog haypro dimaga and other zergs just be there for me before the finals and just help me if u 1base muta seems good vs mass reaper, but terran scouts it and switch to marine ghost on 1base and they can own u hard :D reapers create more issues in this game than solving, they are mostly just cool but dont really make gameplay better at all. if u ask me it would help if they got nerfed for the early stages and lets say get a new upgrade for late game like spider mines (im not saying they should get spider mines im just saying they should get some purpose to be built in later game) or whatever to make them viable there. they can jump up and down cliffs but that doesnt mean its a brilliantly designed unit, infact its pretty much the most obvious and straight forward unit in the game with so few dynamics holy shit that PM in your sig o_0 fucking psycho! | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On August 24 2010 22:48 Sieziggy wrote: So MorroW, from your perspective, what would be the best Zerg response to this build until Blizzard patches it? my guess would be making a spine in the natural getting about 4 queens that can stall reapers and win extra time and spread creep really quickly. i guess its better to save time letting them attack ur queen than wasting low numbers of zerglings. also these few roaches are tough but still they will only win time until u get many roaches but they will still die so yea, i believe some extra queen(s) for the healing power. and meanwhile ur taking all blows with this either tech to lair and get speed roach or simply mass up lings, but ithink getting lair and roaches is best. so basically how idra plays, but instead of getting all these roaches and lings early on try to hold it off with queens roach spine. massing up lings to get a good surround is only gonna work vs failing terrans and against better terrans they save a little time but u mostly just lose alot of money on the lings that die in 2 attacks its really hard to say tho but tbh extra many queens along with roaches should really be effective to heal and survive alot without taking too much damage before speed is done on roach and then ur in good shape. but the thing is terran see this and switch to 5rax marauders get stim and shells and can just destroy u, i think more zergs should try to put overlords on the map so they can see what terran is making in a healthy time the entire situation is just really dirty tho and im not gonna try to say "just do this nps" because im sure all these top zergs has tried everything | ||
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Looonski
United States15 Posts
I think e-sports and online games in general have a bad enough stigma towards "nerd rage", and I think having pro gamers act this way doesn't help develop the scene in a positive way at all. That said I like Idra's play style, and his dedication to the sport, just not his entitled/cocky attitude and the way he behaves at tournaments. Sure, he's won a some tournaments, but the SC2 competitive scene is still so small. Before he starts walking around like he is unstoppable he needs to actually BE unstoppable. This was the biggest tournament so far, and what does he do? He rage quits early from a few games and then acts like a 5 year old on the main stage afterward. I wasn't sure whether he was going to burst into tears or into flames during that post game interview. All in all I hope Idra is sitting back in Korea drinking a few beers and relaxing. He needs to blow off some steam and get his shit together. I hope he comes back with more passion to win then ever, and hopefully a more humble attitude... | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
The top tier zerg players will find a way to beat it eventually.. it just may come with sacrificing something they are used to doing... like FE. | ||
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Sieziggy
United States53 Posts
On August 24 2010 23:00 MorroW wrote: but the thing is terran see this and switch to 5rax marauders get stim and shells and can just destroy u, i think more zergs should try to put overlords on the map so they can see what terran is making in a healthy time the entire situation is just really dirty tho and im not gonna try to say "just do this nps" because im sure all these top zergs has tried everything Yeah, that seems to be the crux of the problem. Not only does the opening knock the zerg off their macro game, but it pushes them into a very predictable army comp. Even if they try to get cute with you, you're in their base non-stop so it's pretty hard to be sneaky. = / | ||
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Mentymion
Germany259 Posts
I hope you can answer some of my questions because I never ever got a chance to ask the pros about it.^^ So besides the TvZ Balance etc. I would like to know what you think of the TvP Balance in general. Yesterday I saw the IEM game of Lucifron vs HasuObs and Hasu was absolutly demolished by mass marauders + shells. HasObs tried everything...Storm, Colossis, Phoenixes but it didn' t work for him. I think he even raged quitted after the second game. So iam really like to see your opinion of EMP's , Marauders and so on.^^ | ||
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Sieziggy
United States53 Posts
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Ovi
164 Posts
On August 24 2010 23:19 n0xi3 wrote: The top tier zerg players will find a way to beat it eventually.. it just may come with sacrificing something they are used to doing... like FE. well the thing is when T does this mass rax reaper into FE build it forces the zerg to play a certain way if the game isnt gonna end right there. If both players play flawless from there on the terran will always come out on top ECO and tech wise (as in having 5 rax with addons ready when opponent has been forced to go roaches to fend of the reapers, not that the zerg necessarely is gonna keep making roaches though). Like morrow said himself, the build provides map control (zerg really cant move outside of his base), pressures and potentially cripples the zerg, and then the FE with the nice marauder transition (or transition into whatever necessary) if zerg has gone the path hes pretty much forced to do. Because once reapers hit that critical number, they pretty much kill endless amount of lings. 3 rax into fe also works, i mean deny scouting overlord with building 1 marine and u could be able to make the zerg way overreact while u instead actually go for a faster FE, etc. We have seen some games where the terran hasnt necessarely come out on top after this opening, but that has always been because of some major mistake like unecessarily going into a zerg main at a bad moment with the reapers getting trapped etc. You dont even necessarely need to kill any drones (chances are you will though), the damege still is being done by the zerg just doing what he needs to do to survive the early game. However it might also come down to the maps. Obviously maps with cliffs really close to main and natural and with alot of cliff area is extra good for the tactic. going FE as a zerg on LT vs this 5 rax reaper build.. i seriously cant see how the zerg can come out of that even close to even if the terran handles it correctly. And every map for some reason have their watch towers on a cliff or next to a cliff. I think the solution is to change the reapers in the way morrow suggested, basicly making them less good early game but with some upgrade or so for mid or lategame usage. This, combined with balancing maps so that they dont necessarily look like LT. | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
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Xiphiasar
United States78 Posts
I'll try to make 5rax FE reapers work in platinum, in case Blizz patches them in the future. | ||
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