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On August 23 2010 11:12 Sieziggy wrote:
I'm just curious to see what the fix will be. Think they'll scrap reapers all together? Or simply remove the speed upgrade / nerf their nade spam?
I imagine right now they wish they could remove it, but it's too late. If they had started the beta a month earlier they could have fixed this. It's a terrible unit and adds almost nothing to the game and takes a way a lot. If you were teaching Game Design 101 this would be a prime example of what not to do.
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I wanna say that 1 base muta (aka, you expand more or less when the mutas pop) should beat mass reapers, but I don't really know how all the timing works out. I know 1 base muta +a few spines at your ramp is one of the stronger builds against an early hellion/marauder push (otherwise need 2-4 spines at the expo + some army to hold, though someone of Idra's caliber could probably make do with less).
Problem being that a Z is likely committed to a FE build by the time they see the reapers unless they freak out after seeing a single reaper/tech lab go down, which is obviously silly.
If I had to guess at the "official" solution, I'd say it'll be a slight range decrease for Reapers (obviously Zerg buffs are out of the question, lul).
And for extra doom and gloom, just imagine if someone actually had good enough micro (insert Flash comment here) and was attacking on two (or more!) fronts at once with the damn things instead of running them all around in one control group.
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Reaper openings are good for the game, much more interesting to see than mmost other things. So I really wouldn't mind to see it stay, if terran is too good, nerf terran in general (reduce mule harvest rate for example, it'll hurt a terran a bit no matter what he does) not just this 1 cool build :/
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I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 2 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could to defend against it, and still was drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke.
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Can someone give a link to a thread detailing and discussing the 3 rax into 5 rax build Morrow was doing? I looked in the strategy forum but could not find any.
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The stupid thing is that even when the Z anticipates and reacts to a build like this, it will still be hard as hell to hold off. I really don't think Z has a similar build to put that much pressure on terran that is really not counterable. Yes it is POSSIBLE to hold off, but it's really stupid that even when you react to it perfectly, and see it coming from a mile away, it's still extremely threatening...
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Interesting to hear Dimaga helped MorroW out and really a great display of sportsmanship. I guess Dimaga really is the nicest person in the world :D
And I do agree reapers are very hard to deal with. The only redeeming quality of that opening is it almost forces the terran to do a bio build after (if it gets held off). I think all zergs would agree they would MUCH rather face bio than mech at this point. If the reapers were made a little less powerful I it seems fine to stay in the game imo. If I had to fix it, I would make their range = to a roach, or lower movement speed so they couldn't infinitely kite the roaches.
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On August 24 2010 10:34 nybbas wrote:
I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 3 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could immediatly to defend against it, and still has drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke.
It is difficult, very difficult to micro them well and macro at the same time.
You try to use reapers to beat IdrA and Dimaga.
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On August 23 2010 23:24 Snowfield wrote:
I mean, MorroW never won wiith reapers alone. and in the one game idra got mutas, idra won.
Anyone want to explain what happened in that game? did morrow fuck up?
Its just so little that has to be changed for this to be balanced, i really hope blizz dont go overboard.
In the two games Idra lost to reapers, he made no mutalisks.
You could say that Morrow waited too long. He focused too much on building a large number of them. However, what won the game was Idra doing the correct response: mutalisks.
The defense against reapers requires good micro to hold it off. That often buys enough time to get to mutalisks which absolutely shuts down any reapers running around on the map (as well as hellions and marauders). It forces the Terran to go anti-air. It gives Zerg map control.
Responding to reapers with mass roaches is a wrong move. While roaches do not easily die to reapers, they can still be kited and killed. A few roaches is fine to buy time for mutalisks, but going mass roaches won't kill the faster reapers and sets the Zerg up to be slaughtered as the Terran easily switches to marauders.
What also really hurt Idra in Game 3 was that he was not macroing well when he was microing his units. He hit 1000 minerals at one point causing Day[9] to be flabbergasted.
On August 23 2010 21:11 Bommes wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that it's quite funny how MUCH zerg are whining about reapers, although it failed like half of the time in the tournament, while there was no protoss at all in the play-offs, but I don't see any protoss whining about imbalance.
I'm not saying that terran is fine, there are WAY too many good openings and it has to be nerfed (most likely some tweaks for reapers and banshees), but it's just absurd how the community dramatizes the zerg balance atm. Just wait some time and don't blame every single situation which might look difficult to solve on balance. Because zerg itself is such a difficult race it takes a lot longer and more practice to see solutions how to counter the diverse openings. But it's not necessary to spam every single thread on TL, because Idra lost against a terran, with a discussion about TvZ imbalance.
I think it is two reasons. The Zerg race is very frustrating to play (I switched away from it) because it is still undeveloped. Because of this, many Zerg players are cranky (I was cranky when I played Zerg. Idra, as a famous example, is extremely cranky). The other reason is the general ego thing. When someone loses a game, they didn't really lose. It is because a race is "imbalanced", the other player "cheated", or something else. This is why some Zerg players have ridiculously claimed they are the 'elite players' merely because they play Zerg. 99% of all losses have to do with the player, not the design of the race.
But since I have yet to meet a Zerg player that wasn't frustrated with his race, I think there is a major design flaw in the Zerg that is the root of the frustration (I think it is the two dimensional units). This is why, statistically, the races could be 'balanced' in wins and losses yet Zerg players could be frustrated and unhappy. It points that the flaw is not so much in the balance but in something else. If Zerg was well developed, then Z vs Z would not be a horrible match-up in both viewing and playing. We will know when Zerg is fixed once Z vs Z becomes interesting to watch and fun to play.
On August 23 2010 17:38 dogabutila wrote:Many high level players have bad micro? Really?
I wish you would quote what I actually say instead of saying 'bunch of BS' and placing up strawmen to attack. It would help discussion.
While macro has been the focus for SC 2, micro has not been discussed. People confuse micro with kiting units (which is an extremely basic form of micro). Because of how fast Starcraft 2 is, it is extremely difficult to micro very well and macro very well. This is why when many people use reapers, they discover their minerals skyrocket. Even good players.
Idra is a good player. However, his macro turned into bronze league during the third game because he was focusing so much on microing against the reapers. Idra is known for having rock solid fundamentals and even playing extremely consistently. Yet, in a high profile tournament finale, his fundamentals completely slipped. What happened?
What I think what occurred is that most players have trouble doing extreme micro with extreme macro at the same time. Idra clearly couldn't do both in that game. For many Terran players during the tournament, going reapers cost them games because they slipped up on one of the two ends.
Let me ask a question. It is much better for someone like Morrow to split up his reapers and attack with two armies. Why group them all up in one control group? Why not attack from two fronts? The answer why Morrow didn't do this is because he couldn't. It is challenging enough to micro well with one group of reapers and macro well back at your base let alone with multiple reaper armies. In time, perhaps, people will build up the skills in order to do so. If this occurs, then opponents need to build up the micro skills needed to defend against multiple reaper armies at once.
Let me ask another question. Why are reapers being focused and not the final game where Morrow used the air tight timing attack of hellions and marauders against Idra especially when reaper openings lost the game for many Terran players?
The answer is that reaper openings, which win some of the time, is extremely annoying to Zerg. But the hellion and marauder opening is not that annoying. So why is the reaper opening so annoying? It is because it shifts the game to intense micro skills of both players. It can be overwhelming for many players.
With Zerg units, they do not reward greater micro skill as units from other races. This is not the fault of the player, it is the fault of the 'swarmy' philosophy Blizzard has in how two dimensional Zerg units were designed. How exactly can an ultralisk reward high micro skill? Or a hydralisk? It is nothing compared to say a reaper or a ghost or a banshee. This isn't to say there isn't ANY Zerg units that reward micro, there are. Zerglings, banelings, mutalisks, and queens being the big ones. The problem is that Zerg has much less than other races. This is why, even though there have been no balance changes since Phase II Beta started, it "feels" like Terran is getting stronger and stronger. But what is really going on is that as people's micro skill improves, Terran units better reward that skill. Reapers are a good example of a unit that was considered "worthless" earlier on but now is seen as 'overpowered'. The next unit up is going to be the ghost. Before, no one talked much about it. But in a few weeks, I bet people are going to start declaring the ghost 'imbalanced' because people are learning how to micro well with it.
This is why I think the solution to the "imbalance", which is actually more general in nature, is to give Zerg more micro intensive abilities and units. Even if Terran was nerfed, Z v Z matchups would still suck. Instead of having an equalization of misery, it is better to flesh out and better the Zerg (and even the Protoss).
Zerg requires the least micro skill? Really?
Yes, because clearly hydralisks and ultralisks and roaches require intense micro abilities to be effective. Units like reapers are just attack move. (sarcasm) Keep in mind I am not attacking a player, I am attacking the bland unit design for Zerg. I played Zerg all through the beta and finally got frustrated at how two dimensional the units were.
Really, terran is the only micro intensive race?
If you quoted me properly, you would know that I said that Terran has the most options available to reward micro play. Zerg clearly has the least. And it is this that I believe is the true cause of the "imbalance". In other words, increasing hydralisk attack speed or slowing down reaper build time isn't going to fix anything. Z v Z will still be horrible. Terran will still have the most options at the table.
Reapers are not significantly hard to use. It doesn't take amazing gosu micro to use them against zerg. It takes more micro to use them against protoss because of stalkers.
Are you saying the tournament players had bad micro? Many Terran players lost to Zerg using reaper openings. Even Morrow lost a game doing it.
T players in beta were abusing reactor pushes because they were way too fast. After that got nerfed they were still trying to MMM, and one can remember the objections they had to using mech. "marines are necessary against mutas" To an extent this was true, but they said that even mixing in tanks would be death. Thor buffs // splash was pretty necessary. However the turrets were probably overbuffed. Everything that was whined about from T perspective was buffed or nerfed respectively. Roaches were significantly too strong, but they got over nerfed. Nydus play was fine, but apparently it was too hard to counter, so now they are fragile as shit and take forever to build. Collos destroyed MM so they got a range nerf. Storm was too powerful against MMM as well so that got significant nerfs.
Then T players found out, oh we can use emp and reapers too. And hellions arnt as bad as we thought.
It's not that micro skill has been improving. It's that people are becoming more familiar with the game // units. Way back when, even when zerg was OP with the roaches and other stuff some of the more foward looking pros said that terran would be the strongest race. Since then they had nothing but buffs and the other races were nerfed.
Now you wonder why issues exist?
People were very familiar with the units even back when Phase II started (after months and months of playtime, far more than the retail has been out at this point). But even when Phase II started, people on this very forum were making their 'suggestions' to Blizzard and were saying things like to scrap the reaper because "no one uses it". Lo and behold, a few weeks later, the reaper is now "overpowered". The game hasn't changed. However, people's micro skill with the units have improved. I expect the ghost to be the next Terran "overpowered" unit as players are beginning to learn how to micro the ghost better than ever.
Also, Zerg wasn't 'overpowered' so much as they were never 'finished'. Ultralisks, a key top tier unit for the Zerg, were considered a joke throughout the entire beta. Everyone laughed at the 'infested terran' ability that got swapped to all sorts of different areas, such as the overseer, until finally being placed on the infestor to cast while burrowed.
I think Zerg still needs some work. I would still be playing Zerg if their units actually had depth to play with.
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I first saw it being used to great effect from LZgamer. I was kind of hoping he would get to beat idra with it on a big stage since idra hates him so much.
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ohh, looking forward to watching this
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2010 13:00 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 10:34 nybbas wrote:
I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 3 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could immediatly to defend against it, and still has drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke. It is difficult, very difficult to micro them well and macro at the same time. You try to use reapers to beat IdrA and Dimaga.
Perfect response, yeah I'll use it to beat Idra, thats how you win an argument right there.
I am probably on the shit end of diamond (then again from some of the diamond players I have played, maybe a little better) I guarantee any decent C or higher ICCUP player would be able to micro the reapers and throw down an extra command center and build scvs. This is nothing like microing mutas while managing your macro in BW....
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On August 24 2010 02:10 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:12 Sieziggy wrote:
I'm just curious to see what the fix will be. Think they'll scrap reapers all together? Or simply remove the speed upgrade / nerf their nade spam? I imagine right now they wish they could remove it, but it's too late. If they had started the beta a month earlier they could have fixed this. It's a terrible unit and adds almost nothing to the game and takes a way a lot. If you were teaching Game Design 101 this would be a prime example of what not to do.
I wouldn't at all say balancing SC2 is at all "game design 101," but that said yeah they need to be removed. Terran has simply TOO many openers/options compared to all the other races. Reapers definitely need to just be removed -- T already has a higher unit count than p/z, so it'd just push things into a more manageable number.
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On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining.
Wow, are you that biased about your own race? You call QQ on everything and even Terrans at higher levels agree this strat is OP.
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On August 24 2010 11:51 BondGamer wrote:
Can someone give a link to a thread detailing and discussing the 3 rax into 5 rax build Morrow was doing? I looked in the strategy forum but could not find any.
I hope you dont find it.
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10387 Posts
On August 24 2010 12:50 imPERSONater wrote:
Interesting to hear Dimaga helped MorroW out and really a great display of sportsmanship. I guess Dimaga really is the nicest person in the world :D
I don't think being nice/sportsmanship was the ulterior motive here lol..
On August 24 2010 13:00 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 10:34 nybbas wrote:
I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 3 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could immediatly to defend against it, and still has drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke. It is difficult, very difficult to micro them well and macro at the same time. You try to use reapers to beat IdrA and Dimaga.
with MBS and Automine, I don't think its that hard to macro and micro well. Certainly nowhere near the level of Sair/Reaver
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you guys act like he had never made a reaper before in his life lol, i'm sure hes done different variations of reapers hundreds of times, the only thing he learned was the basic build timings / what to do with the reapers ( WHICH DIMAGA TOLD HIM ). That is not hard to do in 10 or 20 games, as long as you have the skill to execute it.
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On August 24 2010 15:29 drewbie.root wrote:
you guys act like he had never made a reaper before in his life lol, i'm sure hes done different variations of reapers hundreds of times, the only thing he learned was the basic build timings / what to do with the reapers ( WHICH DIMAGA TOLD HIM ). That is not hard to do in 10 or 20 games, as long as you have the skill to execute it.
You act like Idra has never seen a reaper in his life, and just didn't know the proper technique to defend against it. If getting speedlings, and speed roaches as fast as the game allows isn't the counter, then what is?! Dimaga told him what to do with the reapers? meaning... shoot stuff? the micro game with reapers is pretty rudimentary... (Tarson loses all his reapers to Idra due to really bad micro, not because Idra played better that game)
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On August 23 2010 12:03 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 12:01 Redmark wrote:
In many situations when people don't shake hands and just leave the media makes a huge deal out of it (I remember it happening a few times in football or something). Not unique to Starcraft really. Shaking hands is different to GG, GG means good game, shaking hands does not mean GG or anything like it.
Its not different. Both are means of showing respect to the other player. Its as simple as that.
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Can someone give me a list of what is considered op with terran? I've lost track. Or better yet, what units and strategies that are allowed without people getting angry at you?
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EPT
