|
On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. Indeed. I seriously don't see how extra queens are going to work, yes you may be able to hold off reapers for a while, but then what? You have these defensive queens, wich aside from transfusion don't really do anything. (since with a good amount of queens, you already have enough creep tumors. So ye cool, what now, the Terran even has more mapcontrol and the zerg is in even a more defensive position. This is a big issue, a big part of reapers is that they give the T complete mapcontrol for as long as they are alive. And you are suggesting something that makes that even worse? And then what, your lair is incredibly delayed, Oh hay cloaked banshee's, yes you can make spore crawlers, but then what? take a third? Okay, now i'm even more spread out. And in all this time Terran has been able to do whatever he wants, since there is no threat at all from the zerg. And if he counters with roaches/speedlings, it is gonna be delayed because of all those mins that went into queens, and T will be able to react. That is just my reasoning why mass queens just doesn't seem like a good idea, but that might be just me.
There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases.
Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army.
|
1) This build is OLD. I saw lzgamer doing it in a game showed at the day9 sc2 countdown party.
2) This build is too strong. As a terran player I think that I can say that it's even imbalanced. Even IF you scout it as a zerg, then you will have a very hard time holding it. I'm 100% sure that dimaga and idra saw this build before and the fact that they still don't know how to hold this shows how imbalanced it is. IF the zerg can hold it then he is behind on his opponent and unless the terran makes a big mistake, the zerg will lose.
|
On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army.
Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere.
In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions.
The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was
And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map.
|
IMO, the problem is not so much about the strength of this reaper build. As the last idra morrow game showed, the biggest issue is how many different viable openings T have compared to Z.
So if you want to be prepared against reapers, you have to do X. But then T can quite easily fake and do something completely different, something that rapes X (like marauder hellion>>what you do vs reapers)
This basically illustrates what I've been feeling while playing Z for months: just too little viable strats, always having to react to what T player dictates. Adding viable openings to Z would probably help more than nerfing reapers imo..
|
On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map.
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine.
|
On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine.
So weird that the 2 best zergplayers never found out about this... "just make an extra queen".
|
On August 23 2010 19:04 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. So weird that the 2 best zergplayers never found out about this... "just make an extra queen".
One of those best zerg players doesn't do anything that hurts his macro, ever. Every notable game of IdrA's I've seen is just him dragging out the game until he has 180 food of Hydra/Roach, then winning or losing depending on how the upcoming battle turns out. It's just not in his style to do something like "just make an extra queen", or rather, to do anything that doesn't involve massing units all game long.
I'm not sure who the other one you're refering to is.
|
On August 23 2010 19:04 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. So weird that the 2 best zergplayers never found out about this... "just make an extra queen".
Not to mention Idra gets an extra queen every game immediately the first one is done...
|
On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map. Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine.
The issue with getting extra queens is that past the 'critical mass' of Reapers they deal with Queens very easily. In the three games MorroW massed a large number of Reapers and really put the Queen that Idra had in trouble. A second Queen would have been in as much trouble as the first.
|
On August 23 2010 19:09 maJes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map. Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. The issue with getting extra queens is that past the 'critical mass' of Reapers they deal with Queens very easily. In the three games MorroW massed a large number of Reapers and really put the Queen that Idra had in trouble. A second Queen would have been in as much trouble as the first.
I was refering specifically to early reapers.
At that point in the game, he already had a roach warren out. IdrA made plenty of mistakes that game, did a lot of pointless chasing off of creep, etc etc. Either his attention was elsewhere or he really wanted those reapers dead, but it was a mistake nonetheless.
|
On August 23 2010 19:07 Vokasak wrote:
One of those best zerg players doesn't do anything that hurts his macro, ever. Every notable game of IdrA's I've seen is just him dragging out the game until he has 180 food of Hydra/Roach, then winning or losing depending on how the upcoming battle turns out. It's just not in his style to do something like "just make an extra queen", or rather, to do anything that doesn't involve massing units all game long.
I'm not sure who the other one you're refering to is.
Both idra and dimaga lost to those 5rax reaper builds, several times.
|
On August 23 2010 15:02 Macavity wrote:
As players get more comfortable with the units and races, micro skill is improving. Terran units reward micro play such as reapers (as well as stimming infantry, banshees, siege tanks and other units). Protoss units don't really have that high need of micro (with the exception of high templars and stalkers). You cannot do that much with a zealot or an immortal. With Zerg, there is less need for micro. Aside from zerglings and mutalisks, there is very little to micro. Ultralisks, hyralisks, and roaches somewhat are essentially attack move.
Just wanted to point out that void rays, phoenixs, and colossi all reward protoss micro. Protoss is not a 1a race... Also sentries(forcefield ^^)
|
On August 23 2010 14:48 phungus420 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:24 zalu wrote:
...Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
Once you get to mid game the MU seems balanced, but the early game needs some tweaking.
Seems reasonable enough.
|
On August 23 2010 19:12 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:09 maJes wrote:On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote:
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map. Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. The issue with getting extra queens is that past the 'critical mass' of Reapers they deal with Queens very easily. In the three games MorroW massed a large number of Reapers and really put the Queen that Idra had in trouble. A second Queen would have been in as much trouble as the first. I was refering specifically to early reapers. At that point in the game, he already had a roach warren out. IdrA made plenty of mistakes that game, did a lot of pointless chasing off of creep, etc etc. Either his attention was elsewhere or he really wanted those reapers dead, but it was a mistake nonetheless.
I don't know how you can say this with a straight face? Every action has a consequence, some are bigger than others. Chasing further out off the creep may make your roaches vulnerable, but it means that the reapers have a little more distance to cover before poking back in. This can buy a good multitasking player a little more time to get a structure underway while denying as much scouting as possible or to relieve a little pressure on the economy. It also allows a person to spread the creep tumor with less fear that the reapers will just run in and creep deny while the tumor is still visible.
The problem I am having with your posts is that you speak in absolutes... and that is an unwise thing to do in a game such as SC2. You speak of expanding creep and using queens to defend as if it is such a huge problem solver when in reality, it is at best a band aid solution and at worst it can delay a whole host of other options. If queens could be spawned from thin air for 150 minerals then sure, you can speak of 150 minerals as being a strictly mineral cost, it is however an opportunity cost in that it delays all manner of upgrades. Imagine if stim upgrades delayed production capacity at your barracks, would you still just say, always research stim straight away even before your first unit was produced? Queens are hopeless off creep unlike lings, they are also slower than reapers on creep so having more is at best a deterrent, but a good micro player can hit one queen and retreat before taking a hit.
It's also naive to speak of mistakes as though they were unforced errors, everything is easy to see in hindsight.
|
On August 23 2010 15:35 delayed reflex wrote:
I do find it quite amusing that 3 weeks ago many people here were saying that there was no use making more than 1-2 reapers and that they were useless outside of the first harass. Naturally the metagame is still evolving. It does seem to hilight yet again how flexible and robust Terran is turning out to be though, while there seems to have been fewer changes in Z/P strategies since the release.
Reapers are still useless besides the first harass vs zerg. When the zerg gets a couple of roaches reapers become close to useless (everything is relative, but they are definately not cost effective). IMO reapers should be changed instead of nerfed, so that they became a better mid/late game unit against protoss and terran, and slightly nerfed early game vs zerg.
|
cool and interesting stuff
|
thanks for this. watching now.
reapers -_-
|
On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote:
Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other.
Except hellions are shut down by ONE spinecrawler without drops on most maps.
|
On August 23 2010 19:30 groms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 15:02 Macavity wrote:
As players get more comfortable with the units and races, micro skill is improving. Terran units reward micro play such as reapers (as well as stimming infantry, banshees, siege tanks and other units). Protoss units don't really have that high need of micro (with the exception of high templars and stalkers). You cannot do that much with a zealot or an immortal. With Zerg, there is less need for micro. Aside from zerglings and mutalisks, there is very little to micro. Ultralisks, hyralisks, and roaches somewhat are essentially attack move.
Just wanted to point out that void rays, phoenixs, and colossi all reward protoss micro. Protoss is not a 1a race... Also sentries(forcefield ^^)
Phoenixes do, but VRs and Colossi don't have a very high micro ceiling. I'm not really sure that this is relevant in this thread, though.
|
Thanks for the WoC and the interview DjWheat. You always have the great stuff  Interested in seeing how this imba reapers thing will evolve
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
