EPTNo actually it was a list of whines. And then it got owned by a reality check.
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 825
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45327 Posts
No actually it was a list of whines. And then it got owned by a reality check. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
BeastyQt, DieStar, Insolence, ToD, Stephano and especially Nerchio are players who only got really good in the last months and you probably don't know them yet (in SC2). So yeah, there are new players coming up and you can see them in all the smaller EU cups but obviously they don't win big tournaments^^ | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
On April 22 2011 00:39 Tyree wrote: On streams, chat rooms, forums, message boards, many people want NASL to fail. I hope iNcontrol is fully aware of this, they dont want this to fail because they are anti SC2 or anti eSports but because they have a dislike for him for something he said in SOTG Episode __. If NASL was spearheaded by someone like Day9, someone who is beloved by 99% of the community, it would be considered "the little league that could" instead of all sorts of nasty things people have been saying. Yes NASL could do alot better and they have made some mistakes, but all this is just overblown to much bigger problem than it actually is, and that is because want to see you Geoff fail, it would bring alot of people satisfaction. If you told people on TL 5 years ago that the community was so spoiled by tons of tournaments, leagues and streams that they would enjoy fun mocking and shitting on a big league that is trying their best to launch in NA, they would have called you crazy. We have so much right now, (which was mentioned on this episode) that people dont care that if Geoff goes down in flames so will NASL, becuase there is tons of other tournaments to follow. If NASL was the only game in town, people would back it up 100% but alas times are different Yes you guys need to improve on various things, and the first season is beta of sorts NASL 0.8b version. But the negative comments are overblown, i can name you 2 big tournaments out there that aggrivated me and most of us far more than NASL has, MLG and IEM, with various delays, stream crashing etc (yes i know they are both live events). NASL has gotten more shit for bad sound and slight gamma problems than Assembly got when 2 of their casters blantantly said they couldnt wait till the games were over so they could go home and other BS. Geoff did overhype the shit out of the thing, but if there anything positive to say about that is that you managed to actually whip out a great frenzy for a tournament and build excitement, not everyone can do that. If anything you did too good of a job but could not follow it up. Good luck with NASL and just work hard it awesome post ... personally I am 100% enjoying having 5 great matches almost EVERY single night to watch if I feel like it ... a lot of the complainers are people who did not even buy the 25$ pass and are just complaining to complain.... NASL has had its rough spots and there are definitely a thing or two that bug the crap out of me but I am still excited to watch it every night its on ... all I ask is that they continue to give 100% and improve which I know they will | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On April 21 2011 09:18 Liquid`Tyler wrote: If it was chess, then you have full information, and the player who fails to capitalize is 100% at fault. SC2 is a game of limited information. And there are definitely times when there's no way to efficiently scout. There are times when you can't safely punish the opponent. So this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that IdrA and I like to play a safe style that prepares for everything. Either you go through great expense to get the information you need (like me rushing to obs in PvT or hallucinate in PvZ) or you judge that there's no efficient way to get information so you have to sit back and prepare for everything, while not optimally preparing for anything. If your opponent isn't also preparing for everything, then you're most likely behind. Is that what people consider "outplaying" someone is? Having a risk pay off and then playing it out "good enough" to not lose? If the guy playing safe reacts perfectly to all the information he has, and he does a good job of obtaining information, and his micro and macro are superior, and he has a better game plan, etc, but all of that isn't enough to catch up to the guy who's like "well I guess I'd automatically lose to strategies A, B and C, let's hope he's doing D" and then just barely wins against D, then who outplayed whom? I'm going to disagree even with the chess analogy. As a pretty high level and very competitive chess player I can tell you that the test example is a lot like a chess game even at fairly high levels. Let's imagine you're step by step getting a better and better position until you get a winning advantage, but then you blunder and draw or lose. You could argue you didn't outplay the opponent, but really both players had opportunity to blunder on every move, the moves that weren't blunders you consistently played better than your opponent and you just happened to get the unlucky roll of the dice that caused you to blunder that game and if anything your opponent might have been MORE likely to blunder as you're the stronger player. Contrary to most people's view of chess, even top, top, top players make inexplicable mistakes that cost them points in tournaments and matches. Complete information also does not equate to ability to conduct perfect analysis or even the expectation of it, the game is still played in a finite time constraint with finite available resources and an imperfect brain. | ||
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javy_
United States1677 Posts
On April 22 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote: Wow relax there. You make us all sound like monsters, when the fact is that ppl bought it. It's all and good you want to support esport and such but don't forget they still sell a product. When you buy a product you want it to do what it is supposed to deliver, if not you will complain. Would you not complain when your tv constantly falls out? (extreme example here) or that the sound is messed up? I really don't want to sound to negative here but acting like ppl aren't allowed to complain is just silly. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism and I would think everyone encourages this. But the issue here is that a lot of people are just flat out bitching and whining and making threats, albeit empty ones, towards iNcontroL. Just read the chat during the game and you'll see that a good chunk of the text consists of vulgarities being thrown at iNcontroL or Gretorp. This does absolutely nothing and does not help or improve the league. It's amazing the sense of entitlement people have when they are receiving a free product. I'm specifically talking about the people who have not paid for the HD stream but act as if they are entitled to something more. I've been watching the free 480p stream and it is by far the best quality stream at that resolution and I've rarely had any lag issues. I just wish that instead of bashing the keyboard like a baboon, people would take a second or two to state their criticisms in a proper manner. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On April 22 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote: Wow relax there. You make us all sound like monsters, when the fact is that ppl bought it. It's all and good you want to support esport and such but don't forget they still sell a product. When you buy a product you want it to do what it is supposed to deliver, if not you will complain. Would you not complain when your tv constantly falls out? (extreme example here) or that the sound is messed up? I really don't want to sound to negative here but acting like ppl aren't allowed to complain is just silly. Complaining is fine. It's annoying when the stream lags or you get spoiled by mistake. I get annoyed too. But people are acting like this means the whole of NASL is a doomed and worthless endeavor, and that the idea that such a new thing might have problems is actually offensive. But I want to touch on something you said - your television analogy. This is a common mindset I've seen here - that we're all just consumers buying a product. I don't think that's what we are, or what we should be. I think we should see ourselves as members of the community, supporting (with our dollars and our time) an ambitious endeavor being worked on by some of our most respected members. We need to accept that this isn't some giant broadcasting corporation doing this. It's a few folks in a studio in LA, and they've never done this before. There are going to be mistakes, some of them huge, and as a community, we need to be supportive of them through those mistakes, and hold them in perspective with what they're trying to do. Getting on the internet and venting about the stream being down or getting spoiled is fine, it's at least 1/4 of what the internet is for. But we continue to see posts and threads DAYS later about how awful the NASL is, how it's doomed, how Incontrol and Gretorp are horrible casters, how the whole production is just atrocious. It's overblown, it's melodramatic, it reeks of a sense of entitlement, and it needs to stop. | ||
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netisopl1
Canada36 Posts
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
As for all the adolescent piece's of shit that bitch nonstop, they can just go fuck themselves. | ||
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ImHuko
United States996 Posts
I think with the NASL, all of the problems is editing etc, you can do it completely live and avoid nearly every mistake that has happened, just don't get it. Live would bring probably double the viewers daily, no spoilers, etc. If a player is participating in a tournament for 100k, they can put up with shitty scheduling or times. Ever since first show I have been saying what Tyler said. If you have insanely good audio but pretty shitty video (GSL) people would enjoy it much much more than shitty audio and decent quality. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On April 22 2011 03:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: No actually it was a list of whines. And then it got owned by a reality check. Well I listed mine as a joke. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On April 21 2011 19:06 rotegirte wrote: I am sorry, but I am curious to see yet one streaming service that even provides 1 and 2. It's like asking NASL to set up a whole new industry standard of content delivery backend. Not to mention how to jump without some sort of timeline. I guess the bottom line is that on demand video sucks. TSL2 had torrents on TL.net's tracker and it was awesome. Now TSL3 has video on demand via youtube, and it's not as awesome. At least their web interface at http://www.pokerstrategytsl3.com/vods is spoiler free, but you can still see the length of the video. You're still stuck with the shitty youtube video player, which has nowhere near the options of something like VLC's video player. And you can only access the video in places that you can access youtube, which is less convenient for some people than having the file and being able to access it anywhere you can watch a video file. --- NASL's first season shouldn't have been hyped at all. This is standard knowledge for any experienced folks in the scene. Before you talk and hype and make promises, it is a million times better to JUST DO IT and let your work speak for itself. Once you're making a good product, then you can start promoting it. If your product's success depends on people blindly following hype and unsubstantiated promises, then you have a piece of shit product. So yeah, you can go for all the marbles by promoting it before you have it, and if it turns out you do have a great product, then you benefit from your premature promotion, and everything is great. Or you can avoid that unnecessary risk, because if you have a great product, things will work out. You can see a million bad examples on TL if you look for them. Someone starts a blog "hey I want to do a weekly show, how much interest is there for this and this and this" or they say "I'm gonna start a weekly show, here are all my hopes and dreams for it, and I'm just gonna blog my process as I get started." NO! Do the show how you want to do it. Do it the best you can. Take feedback once you have something and improve. Generate interest by putting your product out there, not by asking people what product they want and promising to make it. Don't get people excited about something that you might not 100% commit to. Do it or don't do it. Either way, don't go public about it until you've done it. (A few good examples: pretty much everything JoshSuth does. Of course, now he's working for complexity, so it's like, his job and stuff, but still! He just did stuff and put it out there and that got him a job! And now he continues to do stuff! Also, the fucking State of the Game podcast. I don't know how JP started it with WoW or whatever, but he had to start over with SC2. So he just did it and posted it. And now he's doing that with SC Center and numbers are rising for that.) So, how do you promote it without promoting it so that your first broadcast doesn't have only 5k people? Well, NASL actually knew the answer to that. Clash of the Titans. It's a little preview for your product. I think IPL is doing the same thing with this first $5k tournament. They announce "a series of tournaments" and throw $5k at a quick 16 man invitational. If that product is good and they then announced a $100k prize (I have no idea what IPL's future plans are -- I'm just saying this is what NASL could have done) then they will have a hell of a lot more people than 5k lined up. Problem was with Clash of the Titans, it actually wasn't a preview for their product. It was worse than their product, so they kind of disowned it, but then it ended up kind of being a preview for their product anyway. And all business outside of the ESPORTS world works similarly, although the previews for products might not be in public. You make a product, you show it to investors or buyers, you sell them on it and then the promotion starts for its public debut. Or you get people who have made good products before that say "here's our new idea and here's our past work" and you pretty much know what you're gonna get. Once you've earned that status, you can do that. If djWHEAT or Day[9] announced that they've decided to start work on a new show, then that's fine. We know they'll do it and do it well. So, most people at NASL know this now. Geoff 100% knows this. He probably knew it 6 months ago and just got too excited. I probably would've done the same in his position. I'm not trying to give feedback to them at this point, especially since they can't go back in time anyway. But there are people who don't understand why people are so critical of NASL. Well, the people who can't understand the negativity toward NASL probably didn't buy into the hype as much, probably never got the sense that NASL was really proud and in some sense arrogant before they even began their work. They somehow felt like NASL actually was a from-the-community startup, and not an alien entity that plucked people out of the community and decided a bunch of things and did a bunch of things privately and without any community input. Unprecedented rules with team requirements and team limits and public video applications and $250 deposits etc, an oddly rigid player schedule for an online tournament, an announcement event that wasn't a product preview but then kind of was, a launch web site that wasn't a preview of the real site but then kind of was, the theme of "korea isn't unique! we're bringing esports to north america", the theme of "we're professionals and we need the players to be professionals too" while unprofessional debacles were happening and their base of operations was another league's web site's forums, a teaser video of their studio and their crew practicing (implying that AV was gonna be all set, 24 hour drill for editing would be routine, everyone would be comfy in the studio for day one, etc), not broadcasting live implying that everything will be smooth and crisp, turning down an outpouring of support/volunteers with a "nope we've got all the crew we need, but we'll let ya know" Those are some of the components of the perfect storm leading up to week one that made people want to criticize NASL for failing to be completely awesome. In retrospect, everything that happened before NASL started broadcasting makes almost no sense. If they had an awesome debut week, it'd make sense. All along it was like "trust us, gonna be awesome. oops, sorry, yeah that rule actually isn't so great, we'll change it, but trust us, gonna be awesome. oops yeah, the production value is gonna be way better than that, trust us, it's gonna be awesome." and then it wasn't awesome. And unforeseen new problems happened (broadcasted spoilers, wrong map versions). For some idiots on the internet, this is enough reason to eternally hate NASL. For people with an ounce more of rationality, it's enough reason to write scathing criticisms. As for me, it just made my first experience underwhelming. If that's all you heard was that a new league was happening, and then you saw they had a bumpy start, and you heard them apologize for all the bumps and saw that they immediately started fixing things as best they can, then you probably can't understand where other people are coming from. I will say that their willingness to listen to the community and improve is absolutely wonderful. In some ways that's a more important quality than having a good start. NASL will easily maintain enough interest so that when they have improved everything and have a great product, the masses will know and will watch. So yeah, I guess it's a wag of the finger for what NASL has done up to this point, but a tip of the hat to what they're doing now. However it is regrettable to think of the new faces whose first experience watching SC2 was week one of season one of the NASL. It certainly will not go down in history as one of the best presentations of competitive SC2. | ||
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t3tsubo
Canada682 Posts
Concise and eloquent as always Mr. Chilltoss | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
On April 22 2011 04:56 ImHuko wrote: Ever since first show I have been saying what Tyler said. If you have insanely good audio but pretty shitty video (GSL) people would enjoy it much much more than shitty audio and decent quality. Yep, I hope they don't stop improving the audio until it sounds amazing. It's huge. And I'd add that for video, frame rate is huge. Dropped frames are terrible. If everything is smooth and the audio sounds great, then it has a very professional feel. Just like GSL, as you say. I understand that dropped frames can be on jtv's end, or even on the viewer's end. If there's some compromise like "we can eliminate 99% of dropped frames by dropping to 2000kbps" then I really really hope they'd drop to 2000kbps (perhaps not mid-season, since they promised 3000kbps and idiots would get upset). Or just make the video 2000kbps and the audio 1024kbps rofl (stream FLAC? lol. im joking). nah but really, 320kbps? no but seriously, 128kbps. | ||
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Saishuuheiki
United States188 Posts
As it stands now, I think it is still definitely worth it even if it maintained the current production level. The fixed-up product is definately on par with the output from the GSL. And even though it costs twice as much as the GSL, it lasts twice as long so that is more than fair. While it is true that there are sometimes problems watching it live, those are not necessarily their fault. I have little doubt that many people's internet connection can't reliably keep the bandwidth needed to stream without buffering. This is what I believe causes many people's video to freeze while audio continues. If this is a serious bother to you, just wait a day or two and watch the VODs when they're put on the main site. Sure you may not be able to immediately discuss it with your friends or on the forums, but conversely you can see ahead of time which games people thought were worth watching. I can't speak for everyone, but I find that I no longer have the time to watch all the games and merely watch those of players I like or match-ups I want to learn from. | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
Day9's stream is smooth as silk (30 fps or more, it looks like) and his audio, of course, is pristine. I'd pretty much rather watch the Daily just on that basis, even if the content is slightly less interesting than tournament games  | ||
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
On April 22 2011 05:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 21 2011 19:06 rotegirte wrote: I am sorry, but I am curious to see yet one streaming service that even provides 1 and 2. It's like asking NASL to set up a whole new industry standard of content delivery backend. Not to mention how to jump without some sort of timeline. I guess the bottom line is that on demand video sucks. TSL2 had torrents on TL.net's tracker and it was awesome. Now TSL3 has video on demand via youtube, and it's not as awesome. At least their web interface at http://www.pokerstrategytsl3.com/vods is spoiler free, but you can still see the length of the video. You're still stuck with the shitty youtube video player, which has nowhere near the options of something like VLC's video player. And you can only access the video in places that you can access youtube, which is less convenient for some people than having the file and being able to access it anywhere you can watch a video file. --- NASL's first season shouldn't have been hyped at all. This is standard knowledge for any experienced folks in the scene. Before you talk and hype and make promises, it is a million times better to JUST DO IT and let your work speak for itself. Once you're making a good product, then you can start promoting it. If your product's success depends on people blindly following hype and unsubstantiated promises, then you have a piece of shit product. So yeah, you can go for all the marbles by promoting it before you have it, and if it turns out you do have a great product, then you benefit from your premature promotion, and everything is great. Or you can avoid that unnecessary risk, because if you have a great product, things will work out. You can see a million bad examples on TL if you look for them. Someone starts a blog "hey I want to do a weekly show, how much interest is there for this and this and this" or they say "I'm gonna start a weekly show, here are all my hopes and dreams for it, and I'm just gonna blog my process as I get started." NO! Do the show how you want to do it. Do it the best you can. Take feedback once you have something and improve. Generate interest by putting your product out there, not by asking people what product they want and promising to make it. Don't get people excited about something that you might not 100% commit to. Do it or don't do it. Either way, don't go public about it until you've done it. (A few good examples: pretty much everything JoshSuth does. Of course, now he's working for complexity, so it's like, his job and stuff, but still! He just did stuff and put it out there and that got him a job! And now he continues to do stuff! Also, the fucking State of the Game podcast. I don't know how JP started it with WoW or whatever, but he had to start over with SC2. So he just did it and posted it. And now he's doing that with SC Center and numbers are rising for that.) So, how do you promote it without promoting it so that your first broadcast doesn't have only 5k people? Well, NASL actually knew the answer to that. Clash of the Titans. It's a little preview for your product. I think IPL is doing the same thing with this first $5k tournament. They announce "a series of tournaments" and throw $5k at a quick 16 man invitational. If that product is good and they then announced a $100k prize (I have no idea what IPL's future plans are -- I'm just saying this is what NASL could have done) then they will have a hell of a lot more people than 5k lined up. Problem was with Clash of the Titans, it actually wasn't a preview for their product. It was worse than their product, so they kind of disowned it, but then it ended up kind of being a preview for their product anyway. And all business outside of the ESPORTS world works similarly, although the previews for products might not be in public. You make a product, you show it to investors or buyers, you sell them on it and then the promotion starts for its public debut. Or you get people who have made good products before that say "here's our new idea and here's our past work" and you pretty much know what you're gonna get. Once you've earned that status, you can do that. If djWHEAT or Day[9] announced that they've decided to start work on a new show, then that's fine. We know they'll do it and do it well. So, most people at NASL know this now. Geoff 100% knows this. He probably knew it 6 months ago and just got too excited. I probably would've done the same in his position. I'm not trying to give feedback to them at this point, especially since they can't go back in time anyway. But there are people who don't understand why people are so critical of NASL. Well, the people who can't understand the negativity toward NASL probably didn't buy into the hype as much, probably never got the sense that NASL was really proud and in some sense arrogant before they even began their work. They somehow felt like NASL actually was a from-the-community startup, and not an alien entity that plucked people out of the community and decided a bunch of things and did a bunch of things privately and without any community input. Unprecedented rules with team requirements and team limits and public video applications and $250 deposits etc, an oddly rigid player schedule for an online tournament, an announcement event that wasn't a product preview but then kind of was, a launch web site that wasn't a preview of the real site but then kind of was, the theme of "korea isn't unique! we're bringing esports to north america", the theme of "we're professionals and we need the players to be professionals too" while unprofessional debacles were happening and their base of operations was another league's web site's forums, a teaser video of their studio and their crew practicing (implying that AV was gonna be all set, 24 hour drill for editing would be routine, everyone would be comfy in the studio for day one, etc), not broadcasting live implying that everything will be smooth and crisp, turning down an outpouring of support/volunteers with a "nope we've got all the crew we need, but we'll let ya know" Those are some of the components of the perfect storm leading up to week one that made people want to criticize NASL for failing to be completely awesome. In retrospect, everything that happened before NASL started broadcasting makes almost no sense. If they had an awesome debut week, it'd make sense. All along it was like "trust us, gonna be awesome. oops, sorry, yeah that rule actually isn't so great, we'll change it, but trust us, gonna be awesome. oops yeah, the production value is gonna be way better than that, trust us, it's gonna be awesome." and then it wasn't awesome. And unforeseen new problems happened (broadcasted spoilers, wrong map versions). For some idiots on the internet, this is enough reason to eternally hate NASL. For people with an ounce more of rationality, it's enough reason to write scathing criticisms. As for me, it just made my first experience underwhelming. If that's all you heard was that a new league was happening, and then you saw they had a bumpy start, and you heard them apologize for all the bumps and saw that they immediately started fixing things as best they can, then you probably can't understand where other people are coming from. I will say that their willingness to listen to the community and improve is absolutely wonderful. In some ways that's a more important quality than having a good start. NASL will easily maintain enough interest so that when they have improved everything and have a great product, the masses will know and will watch. So yeah, I guess it's a wag of the finger for what NASL has done up to this point, but a tip of the hat to what they're doing now. However it is regrettable to think of the new faces whose first experience watching SC2 was week one of season one of the NASL. It certainly will not go down in history as one of the best presentations of competitive SC2. Tyler, please quit gaming, go to law school and run for president. The country needs your awesome, chill, eloquence and rationality. + Show Spoiler + jk about wanting you to quit gaming, but seriously dude you're amazing. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 22 2011 05:52 Pyo wrote: Tyler, please quit gaming, go to law school and run for president. The country needs your awesome, chill, eloquence and rationality. + Show Spoiler + jk about wanting you to quit gaming, but seriously dude you're amazing. If you want to vote for someone, and you don't really give a shit, vote Liquid'Tyler in 2012. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On April 22 2011 05:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I guess the bottom line is that on demand video sucks. TSL2 had torrents on TL.net's tracker and it was awesome. Now TSL3 has video on demand via youtube, and it's not as awesome. At least their web interface at http://www.pokerstrategytsl3.com/vods is spoiler free, but you can still see the length of the video. You're still stuck with the shitty youtube video player, which has nowhere near the options of something like VLC's video player. And you can only access the video in places that you can access youtube, which is less convenient for some people than having the file and being able to access it anywhere you can watch a video file. --- NASL's first season shouldn't have been hyped at all. This is standard knowledge for any experienced folks in the scene. Before you talk and hype and make promises, it is a million times better to JUST DO IT and let your work speak for itself. Once you're making a good product, then you can start promoting it. If your product's success depends on people blindly following hype and unsubstantiated promises, then you have a piece of shit product. So yeah, you can go for all the marbles by promoting it before you have it, and if it turns out you do have a great product, then you benefit from your premature promotion, and everything is great. Or you can avoid that unnecessary risk, because if you have a great product, things will work out. You can see a million bad examples on TL if you look for them. Someone starts a blog "hey I want to do a weekly show, how much interest is there for this and this and this" or they say "I'm gonna start a weekly show, here are all my hopes and dreams for it, and I'm just gonna blog my process as I get started." NO! Do the show how you want to do it. Do it the best you can. Take feedback once you have something and improve. Generate interest by putting your product out there, not by asking people what product they want and promising to make it. Don't get people excited about something that you might not 100% commit to. Do it or don't do it. Either way, don't go public about it until you've done it. (A few good examples: pretty much everything JoshSuth does. Of course, now he's working for complexity, so it's like, his job and stuff, but still! He just did stuff and put it out there and that got him a job! And now he continues to do stuff! Also, the fucking State of the Game podcast. I don't know how JP started it with WoW or whatever, but he had to start over with SC2. So he just did it and posted it. And now he's doing that with SC Center and numbers are rising for that.) So, how do you promote it without promoting it so that your first broadcast doesn't have only 5k people? Well, NASL actually knew the answer to that. Clash of the Titans. It's a little preview for your product. I think IPL is doing the same thing with this first $5k tournament. They announce "a series of tournaments" and throw $5k at a quick 16 man invitational. If that product is good and they then announced a $100k prize (I have no idea what IPL's future plans are -- I'm just saying this is what NASL could have done) then they will have a hell of a lot more people than 5k lined up. Problem was with Clash of the Titans, it actually wasn't a preview for their product. It was worse than their product, so they kind of disowned it, but then it ended up kind of being a preview for their product anyway. And all business outside of the ESPORTS world works similarly, although the previews for products might not be in public. You make a product, you show it to investors or buyers, you sell them on it and then the promotion starts for its public debut. Or you get people who have made good products before that say "here's our new idea and here's our past work" and you pretty much know what you're gonna get. Once you've earned that status, you can do that. If djWHEAT or Day[9] announced that they've decided to start work on a new show, then that's fine. We know they'll do it and do it well. So, most people at NASL know this now. Geoff 100% knows this. He probably knew it 6 months ago and just got too excited. I probably would've done the same in his position. I'm not trying to give feedback to them at this point, especially since they can't go back in time anyway. But there are people who don't understand why people are so critical of NASL. Well, the people who can't understand the negativity toward NASL probably didn't buy into the hype as much, probably never got the sense that NASL was really proud and in some sense arrogant before they even began their work. They somehow felt like NASL actually was a from-the-community startup, and not an alien entity that plucked people out of the community and decided a bunch of things and did a bunch of things privately and without any community input. Unprecedented rules with team requirements and team limits and public video applications and $250 deposits etc, an oddly rigid player schedule for an online tournament, an announcement event that wasn't a product preview but then kind of was, a launch web site that wasn't a preview of the real site but then kind of was, the theme of "korea isn't unique! we're bringing esports to north america", the theme of "we're professionals and we need the players to be professionals too" while unprofessional debacles were happening and their base of operations was another league's web site's forums, a teaser video of their studio and their crew practicing (implying that AV was gonna be all set, 24 hour drill for editing would be routine, everyone would be comfy in the studio for day one, etc), not broadcasting live implying that everything will be smooth and crisp, turning down an outpouring of support/volunteers with a "nope we've got all the crew we need, but we'll let ya know" Those are some of the components of the perfect storm leading up to week one that made people want to criticize NASL for failing to be completely awesome. In retrospect, everything that happened before NASL started broadcasting makes almost no sense. If they had an awesome debut week, it'd make sense. All along it was like "trust us, gonna be awesome. oops, sorry, yeah that rule actually isn't so great, we'll change it, but trust us, gonna be awesome. oops yeah, the production value is gonna be way better than that, trust us, it's gonna be awesome." and then it wasn't awesome. And unforeseen new problems happened (broadcasted spoilers, wrong map versions). For some idiots on the internet, this is enough reason to eternally hate NASL. For people with an ounce more of rationality, it's enough reason to write scathing criticisms. As for me, it just made my first experience underwhelming. If that's all you heard was that a new league was happening, and then you saw they had a bumpy start, and you heard them apologize for all the bumps and saw that they immediately started fixing things as best they can, then you probably can't understand where other people are coming from. I will say that their willingness to listen to the community and improve is absolutely wonderful. In some ways that's a more important quality than having a good start. NASL will easily maintain enough interest so that when they have improved everything and have a great product, the masses will know and will watch. So yeah, I guess it's a wag of the finger for what NASL has done up to this point, but a tip of the hat to what they're doing now. However it is regrettable to think of the new faces whose first experience watching SC2 was week one of season one of the NASL. It certainly will not go down in history as one of the best presentations of competitive SC2. If I wasn't at work, I would write a very long and lucid reply that is sympathetic to your perspective but respectfully argues that some of your criticism of the NASL is a little unfair. | ||
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quentel
349 Posts
On April 22 2011 03:36 ShooTouts wrote: awesome post ... personally I am 100% enjoying having 5 great matches almost EVERY single night to watch if I feel like it ... a lot of the complainers are people who did not even buy the 25$ pass and are just complaining to complain.... l I paid my $25, as well as help convince a new-to-RTS acquaintance of mind do so as well, and I complain like a broken record during the cast. ^_^ The audio is atrocious for a pre-recorded, supposedly edited product. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2594 Posts
Also, thank you generally for taking the time to be a part of the community. I suppose since is your team's forum it's to be expected, but it really is a wonderful resource to read your input. | ||
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