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8748 Posts
On April 06 2011 22:30 Malinor wrote:
They fucked up because they underestimated the interest for their own product by a large margin. As everyone else, I am hoping that they have learned their lesson for real this time.
This is true. But were their expectations reasonable? There's no way for us to know. It is so hard to predict. If they were reasonably expecting and prepared for a 20% increase and got a 100% increase, what could they do? Thy can't waste money and time on being ready for a 100% increase in traffic.
I feel like it is inherently hard to predict and prepare for, like a trade company that sailed ships hundreds of years ago, back when ships would sink and you'd lose a whole ship and crew, and the cargo. Part of the business is knowing that you can't prepare for everything and doing the best you can when things go wrong.
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8748 Posts
On April 06 2011 19:41 Novalisk wrote:
I didn't like the part where Tyler hinted that the NASL will give you your money's worth more than the GSL.
More games=/=more quality content. As a player you might want more games to study, but a spectator(majority of the viewerbase judging by a recent poll) will likely want a better viewing experience, which the NASL has yet to show.
I didn't hint at anything. I meant simply what I said.
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If the SOTG people think that Dallas wasn't MLG's fault maybe all the MLG people they work with think the same.(even though they publicly said it was their fauilt). So that means next time they will do their best to set up the internet, hope it works and make no/little changes to anything else.
Hope there won't be much delay between games next time.
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i was surprised that day9 and idra did not mention ghosts and templars when discussing mass infestor as an idea to fix zerg. That's the no. 1 reason i don't feel comfortable relying on infestors without a meaty army core, T and P can nullify them at a cost that is orders of magnitude lower of what you need to invest into them.
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On April 06 2011 22:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
But the test would need to be about consistency. There was no lag on Friday night when every sc2 pc was in use and streams were running. Then on Saturday there was lag all night. How long will you test it for to determine that you can run your whole 3 day event without problems? When are you going to do this test? Wednesday and Thursday? So you need yo set things up even earlier, pay for more labor and hotel rooms and days at the venue, and then if it fails what do you do?
ummm what stream on friday night?
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I think maybe part of what may be missing here is a critique of the overall business model of MLG as it relates to SC2.
While console games don't require internet, there are a lot more things that can go wrong with SC2, which should have been obvious to MLG when they first picked up the game. Since they can't control the venue's internet or number of viewers, maybe they shouldn't use a model that's soooo fragile with respect to those items?
For example, GSL, NASL, etc are all fixed locations with the internet permanently set up for testing & I'm sure that helps to alleviate these issues.
The argument that "the internet issues are out of MLG's control" strikes me as a bit hollow because MLG should know that internet issues are out of their control. If they want to grow, why are they choosing so many different venues, where they have no way to test the internet (except for maybe 1-2 days) & no way to control it? It seems like they should re-evaluate whether SC2 works in the model where they drive around the country in trucks.
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8748 Posts
On April 06 2011 16:05 Gotmog wrote:
Why are people assuming that SC2 has been made by some Entity and that by definition it is perfect ?
Since the release zerg has been UP, with small 2 week timing (before 2rax), when T couldn't play a macro game vs Zerg nor pressure.
Every single unit has been used, drops, nyduses, Hive tech, rushes, burrow, bling drops, infestors, parasites...
Larger maps, which were stated to be the main problem are now implemented, they didn't help...
I don't know what else are we waiting for...any new tactics that pop up will quickly be dealt with (such as some weird timings, or july's aggressive style which won't work soon i am sure of it....T/P are so good defensively).
SC2 needs work...so stop saying stuff about figuring it out or how it's a new game etc...
Lol the quote of me in your sig makes me think Z is short for Zerg and not just a variable like it is supposed to be
Zerg still make mistakes when they lose. The only strat the best zergs can play well is "standard play." Greg is unfamiliar with the history of ZvP in sc1 where zerg was favored for ever until bisu came along with a wacky build and breathtaking execution and revolutionized the matchup. Until I see zergs doing ZvP every which way with the same level of refinement and execution that protosses have, I won't comment on balance.
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On April 06 2011 23:12 dementrio wrote:
i was surprised that day9 and idra did not mention ghosts and templars when discussing mass infestor as an idea to fix zerg. That's the no. 1 reason i don't feel comfortable relying on infestors without a meaty army core, T and P can nullify them at a cost that is orders of magnitude lower of what you need to invest into them.
This is because they weren't talking about the units in a vacuum, they were talking about developing a strategy through which a zerg could be taking in far more gas than is normally plausible. Since neither of them has experience using this strategy, they can't comment on when these units become an issue, how much of an issue they are, and how threatening the builds which get ghosts or templar are to the build they were discussing. You really can't just use unit costs and abilities as a reason to get or not to get a certain type of army without considering timing.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:08 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 22:30 Malinor wrote:
They fucked up because they underestimated the interest for their own product by a large margin. As everyone else, I am hoping that they have learned their lesson for real this time.
This is true. But were their expectations reasonable? There's no way for us to know. It is so hard to predict. If they were reasonably expecting and prepared for a 20% increase and got a 100% increase, what could they do? Thy can't waste money and time on being ready for a 100% increase in traffic. I feel like it is inherently hard to predict and prepare for, like a trade company that sailed ships hundreds of years ago, back when ships would sink and you'd lose a whole ship and crew, and the cargo. Part of the business is knowing that you can't prepare for everything and doing the best you can when things go wrong.
On top of that, people need to understand that venues are usually booked about a year in advance. MLG probably had the Dallas Convention center well before they started SC2 in the fall and certainly before they knew how big it would become. I don't think there was any way for MLG to fully prepare and test the site before getting it, especially since their other games are all on LAN and they previously used Octoshape for all streams.
By the time we found out how popular SC2 was, it was probably too late for them to change venues even if they could. It's an extremely large operation so they've got fairly limited options, plus changing would have cost them a lot of money in the contract cancellation.
That said, I think there's a lot better way to handle stream and website servers than what MLG is currently doing. They're trying to keep it all in house and use Akamai directly from the site and that's just not possible anymore, especially if they plan on providing a better quality stream in the future. Like someone else posted in the other thread, they need to rethink their production plan. It's like a car manufacturer building a faulty car because one of their parts suppliers made a defective product. Ultimately, that falls on the car manufacturer to find a solution and keep building a quality car.
They're probably locked in with sponsors, so it's not so easy for them to just use a provider like JTV or Ustream since they have a quota on specific commercials to air. Still, they don't need to send 8 streams out, they can just do the 4 HQ ones and then redo them at a different location for the SQ streams. Or they could use a provider for the SQ ones, cut commercials into the broadcast, and then keep the HQ streams the way they are. I'm curious how difficult it would be to bring in a separate source just for streams and games. It might increase stability, and bandwidth really isn't an issue for either side.
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It looks like the latest episode hasn't been posted yet. Is this correct or did I just miss it?
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For Day[9] - Plural of Moose is "Moose"
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I still feel akward hearing all Non zerg players calling that everything is fine.
Atleast if some pro zerg were in the same idea, but there ain't any..
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8748 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:13 johnkub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 22:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
But the test would need to be about consistency. There was no lag on Friday night when every sc2 pc was in use and streams were running. Then on Saturday there was lag all night. How long will you test it for to determine that you can run your whole 3 day event without problems? When are you going to do this test? Wednesday and Thursday? So you need yo set things up even earlier, pay for more labor and hotel rooms and days at the venue, and then if it fails what do you do? ummm what stream on friday night?
Site was down due to outside traffic, not the venue. Two issues: venue Internet and your own networking equipment being able to handle things on site, and your web site being able to handle all the traffic.
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On April 06 2011 22:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
But the test would need to be about consistency. There was no lag on Friday night when every sc2 pc was in use and streams were running. Then on Saturday there was lag all night. How long will you test it for to determine that you can run your whole 3 day event without problems? When are you going to do this test? Wednesday and Thursday? So you need yo set things up even earlier, pay for more labor and hotel rooms and days at the venue, and then if it fails what do you do?
Stream running on friday? It was a complete cock block for the viewers friday.
Day1 we just pray,
wanted something to see,
Get a 9-hour-wait,
viewing ads for a fee.
Day2 were more fails
and reasonable hating.
We get 1.5 games
after eight hours waiting.
Day3 stream was up,
but strenghten your faith.
MLG showed the hall
while the top-games were played.
Day4 i`m still stunned
maybe it will get fine,
but i have my doubts,
it will be `till day[9].
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I don't know what outside traffic to the side and the stream has to do with anything in regards why there was nothing to watch.
The site is something else entirely. They got more traffic than expected, so they put up more servers and it worked.
They switched the stream to SQ only and it worked. A working stream is a working stream so the amount of outside traffic at that point clearly was not an issue so I don't understand why the amount of interest would even remotely affect why there were just talking heads on the stream and no games. Would have been the same if there was one guy wathings or 100.000 guys.
So games were played while some computer on the lan streamed some video to off site. So then that computer logging into the game as an observer somehow made the game lag for everyone? Still, outside traffic would have nothing to do with it. Clearly their web servers were not computers racked up in the convention center?
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United States22883 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:34 eloist wrote:
They switched the stream to SQ only and it worked. A working stream is a working stream so the amount of outside traffic at that point clearly was not an issue so I don't understand why the amount of interest would even remotely affect why there were just talking heads on the stream and no games. Would have been the same if there was one guy wathings or 100.000 guys.
So games were played while some computer on the lan streamed some video to off site. So then that computer logging into the game as an observer somehow made the game lag for everyone? Still, outside traffic would have nothing to do with it. Clearly their web servers were not computers racked up in the convention center?
Well, those are the details we don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised if no one outside the MLG brass and tech team had that information.
I can't imagine that bandwidth was the issue. 8 streams at those bitrates and gaming is simply not that much for a real internet connection to handle and I'm sure there's tons of TLers with enough bandwidth to handle that.
Stability was an issue, but we don't know if that was due to packet loss or why there was high latency. And they made it sound like it was only an issue when the main stage computers (but it affected every computer) tried to play while the stream was running, but that doesn't make much sense.
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On April 06 2011 22:12 nkr wrote:Is the mp3 released yet? So much MLG whine that it's hard to filter out what im looking for  thanks in advance
I dont think so
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On April 06 2011 23:40 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:34 eloist wrote:
They switched the stream to SQ only and it worked. A working stream is a working stream so the amount of outside traffic at that point clearly was not an issue so I don't understand why the amount of interest would even remotely affect why there were just talking heads on the stream and no games. Would have been the same if there was one guy wathings or 100.000 guys.
So games were played while some computer on the lan streamed some video to off site. So then that computer logging into the game as an observer somehow made the game lag for everyone? Still, outside traffic would have nothing to do with it. Clearly their web servers were not computers racked up in the convention center?
Well, those are the details we don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised if no one outside the MLG brass and tech team had that information. I can't imagine that bandwidth was the issue. 8 streams at those bitrates and gaming is simply not that much for a real internet connection to handle and I'm sure there's tons of TLers with enough bandwidth to handle that. Stability was an issue, but we don't know if that was due to packet loss or why there was high latency. And they made it sound like it was only an issue when the main stage computers (but it affected every computer) tried to play while the stream was running, but that doesn't make much sense.
I guess what I am saying is that given all information that we have and examining that the stream worked while games were being played... someone must have screwed the routing up or architected a flawed system. Which would pretty much leave it in MLGs control. The only thing that would make what we were told make sense really is if someone didn't know what they were doing. It might have been the ISP but then it's also MLGs duty to do the due diligence.
Even dispite all that. There was no reason not to cast any more current replays from matches that were just played. There was no reason to get match results from Twitter all while there were talking heads up on screen.
I am particularly annoyed because all this happened before. MLGs streams starting hours late, shitty matchups being picked, infinite pauses. No clear updates on results. Live spectators not being able to hear commentary. So no, if you weren't at the venue, the even was not 'ok'.
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Great show as usual, thou i am a bit sad that Geoff couldn´t make it since it would have been fun to listen to his MLG story. I am sure that he would have teased Tyler and idra a bit when he finally showed a great result  which always is funny to hear.
One thing you did not talk about, atleast from what i catched was the production of the MLG tournament. And by production i mean picking games to cast and being able to jump into another game, even thou it might not be on main stage. The perfect example of this was when me and TLO:s brother sat in skype and raged when they werent showing TLO vs Incontrol and TLO vs Idra because suddenly all casters and crew had to go and take a break. Even jumping into the game with only a cameraman (no caster) would have been 1000 times better. There were many stiutations like this, when MLG didn´t show anything other than the venue with people walking around, meanwhile a highprofile game was played and we had to check twitter for live updates.
Last thing I want to say is that I cheer for Tyler and really hope you do great in NASL. It is time for a victory again and from what ive seen on state of the game and your stream, you have an extremely deep knowledge of the game. I wanna see chilltoss prevail!
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EPT
