EPTJP please give us something else to talk about.
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 2187
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
JP please give us something else to talk about. | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:23 gruff wrote: We are talking about tournaments here. When I watch replays I try to find the highest level of play I can because that's what I enjoy studying but that doesn't mean I watch tournaments for the same reasons. When I'm watching tournaments I'm interested in entertainment, the story line, the drama and the atmosphere and MLG failed in several of those kinds of aspects. People should stop trying to measure their sc2 dicks and realize you aren't a bigger or better sc2 fan just because you prefer one type of tournament over another. Your posts just reeks of elitism. Of course enjoying production value/drama/everything else doesn't preclude you from being a fan of sc2, unless maybe you watch only a tournament's pre-game/production and turn it off when a game comes on, which would make you a very strange person. I'm simply saying that when you make a decision on what tournament to watch based on a. on quality of gameplay and b. on production, naturally that says something about your priorities. Is it unfair to say that those who prioritize A enjoy starcraft as a game more while those who prioritize B enjoy things related to but still other than starcraft itself? I think not. There are no value judgements here. I'll give up on using the word "fan" because people were getting insulted, but clearly those who value quality of gameplay over everything else must be said to be more engaged and interested in starcraft the game than those who choose to watch a tournament with better everything else other than gameplay. | ||
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flanksteak
Canada246 Posts
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:33 sickoota wrote: Of course enjoying production value/drama/everything else doesn't preclude you from being a fan of sc2, unless maybe you watch only a tournament's pre-game/production and turn it off when a game comes on, which would make you a very strange person. I'm simply saying that when you make a decision on what tournament to watch based on a. on quality of gameplay and b. on production, naturally that says something about your priorities. Is it unfair to say that group A enjoys starcraft as a game more while group B. enjoys things related to but still other than starcraft itself? I think not. I'll give up on using the word "fan", but clearly those who value quality of gameplay over everything else must be said to be more engaged and interested in starcraft the game than those who choose to watch a tournament with better everything else. Yes it's unfair and it is what make you come off as elitist but please go ahead and put yourself above others for such arbitrary reasons. I'm as much engaged and value gameplay as the next but as I clearly pointed out in my post (and you seem to have missed) is that this is not the primary reason I watch tournaments. I prefer a tournament with good production, atmosphere and good casters over a lesser so that have better gameplay (I'm not comparing mlg and dreamhack, just an example). When I want to watch high level game play I watch people stream or I watch replays. | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:39 gruff wrote: Yes it's unfair and it is what make you come off as elitist but please go ahead and put yourself above others for such arbitrary reasons. I'm as much engaged and value gameplay as the next but as I clearly pointed out in my post (and you seem to have missed) is that this is not the primary reason I watch tournaments. I prefer a tournament with good production and good casters over a lesser so that have better gameplay. When I want to watch high level game play I watch people stream or I watch replays. How am I being elitist? How am I putting myself above you? Literally everything I said was purely descriptive, since people seemed to think using the word fan was somehow a personal insult to them. If you value production over gameplay.... you value production over gameplay? If you have on one hand a tournament with better gameplay and worse production, and the other with better production/drama and worse gameplay, and you choose the latter, assuming there were no other variables such as PPV ect, then guess what, you value production over gameplay. There is nothing wrong with that - stop pretending I'm insulting you. Everything I said is completely descriptive. Unless you assert that A. DH had better gameplay than MLG or B. Your decision on what tournament to watch was influenced by factors other than gameplay or production (which is totally fine, I didn't buy MLG either, I watched some dreamhack + ForGG stream) then naturally your decision was prompted by DH's superior production, which would mean you value production over gameplay. Need I repeat? There's nothing wrong with that. You seem insulted by the fact I am insinuating you are less engaged in gameplay than someone who watched MLG when you admit you choose what tournament to watch based on factors other than gameplay... | ||
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McFeser
United States2458 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:32 jmbthirteen wrote: why the fuck is this discussion still going on? Tyler liked MLG better than DH. That's fine. Seriously people, calm the fuck down. JP please give us something else to talk about. It's funny to see how the conversation devolved from Tyler liking MLG more to Tyler hating DH. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:51 McFeser wrote: It's funny to see how the conversation devolved from Tyler liking MLG more to Tyler hating DH. Maybe in your fantasy world. Tyler said he disliked DH in one of his posts (and added an edit saying it was more that he preferred MLG) and even so, the discussion wasn't about that. I swear this always happens: there's a reasonable debate in a thread and one person says something stupid. Immediately some people jump on this, claiming that discussion has devolved and that "the community" is dumb etc. | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:48 sickoota wrote: How am I being elitist? How am I putting myself above you? Literally everything I said was purely descriptive, since people seemed to think using the word fan was somehow a personal insult to them. If you value production over gameplay.... you value production over gameplay? If you have on one hand a tournament with better gameplay and worse production, and the other with better production/drama and worse gameplay, and you choose the latter, assuming there were no other variables such as PPV ect, then guess what, you value production over gameplay. There is nothing wrong with that - stop pretending I'm insulting you. Everything I said is completely descriptive. Unless you assert that A. DH had better gameplay than MLG or B. Your decision on what tournament to watch was influenced by factors other than gameplay or production (which is totally fine, I didn't buy MLG either, I watched some dreamhack + ForGG stream) then naturally your decision was prompted by DH's superior production, which would mean you value production over gameplay. Need I repeat? There's nothing wrong with that. You seem insulted by the fact I am insinuating you are less engaged in gameplay than someone who watched MLG when you admit you choose what tournament to watch based on factors other than gameplay... Did you even read what I wrote? You completely miss my point for the second post in a row and what you said was not purely descriptive... I'm not less engaged in gameplay just because I choose different means to enjoy the gameplay THROUGH STREAMS AND REPLAYS (where you can get a better understanding of the actual gameplay than in most tournaments). You have insinuated in muliple posts the degree of fandome based on this elitist fact. First you used the word fan and how those people are more interested in starcraft (not descriptive and elitist) and when that didn't work you turn that it into people being "more engaged in gameplay." No matter how you twist the words, you are still speaking down to people that watch tournaments for different reasons. You seem to think people can't remember more than one of your posts. So yes, you are insulting people by you insinuations and yes they are elitist. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:48 sickoota wrote: How am I being elitist? How am I putting myself above you? Literally everything I said was purely descriptive, since people seemed to think using the word fan was somehow a personal insult to them. If you value production over gameplay.... you value production over gameplay? If you have on one hand a tournament with better gameplay and worse production, and the other with better production/drama and worse gameplay, and you choose the latter, assuming there were no other variables such as PPV ect, then guess what, you value production over gameplay. There is nothing wrong with that - stop pretending I'm insulting you. Everything I said is completely descriptive. Unless you assert that A. DH had better gameplay than MLG or B. Your decision on what tournament to watch was influenced by factors other than gameplay or production (which is totally fine, I didn't buy MLG either, I watched some dreamhack + ForGG stream) then naturally your decision was prompted by DH's superior production, which would mean you value production over gameplay. Need I repeat? There's nothing wrong with taht. You seem insulted by the fact I am insinuating you are less engaged in gameplay than someone who watched MLG when you admit you choose what tournament to watch based on factors other than gameplay... The two things are only mutually exclusive due to the content provider though. To imply there will always be such a clear discrepancy between the two is accepting the short-comings of the event. A much more productive question is: Would you choose between A. +good production +good gameplay B. +good production -good gameplay C. -good production + good gameplay D. -good production -good gameplay I can perfectly understand Tyler/anybody not caring for one aspect or the other. Yeah, as you said, that's fine. However, an event should always be criticized for both. As a community we should press for option A. Anything else lends to stagnation and mediocrity. Imagine SC1 had never taken off in KR. Gameplay aficionados would have had to travel to KR in person to even observe Flash playing in a local PC bang surrounded by a couple of people. The mere existence of technology, allowing things to be broadcasted. The fact people do make vods, the access to replays. All of it is production. Without it, it's only Flash playing at home by himself, without anyone ever seeing it. In my opinion, it is more long-term beneficial to strive for perfection on all levels and encourage it- and not dismissing one or the other. Again, whether to make us of one certain service or product at a certain given time are personal choices. The message going out to content providers, I believe, should be another. | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
Also I'm going to go self-flagellate for succumbing to the basest of human urges (the desire to win arguments on the internet.) | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On April 25 2012 05:11 sickoota wrote: This discussion mirrors another one that often occurs around SOTG - should the podcast focus more on "current events" - drama, tournament production, results listing ect - or the game itself, strategy, how to improve , thoughts on the meta-game. There are obviously large factions in the community who prioritize one of these things over the other, a group that cares more about sc2 the game/strategy and a group which cares about that happenings in and around the competitive sc2 scene. These divisions will naturally be replicated in what tournament one cares to watch, the more dramatic one or the one with high quality gameplay. Nony obviously falls into the later category, as does what seems to be a relatively small segment of the sc2 viewing public. And once again you seperate people into your own imaginary categories and you ask me what is elist about your posts? You have decided that people that are interested in the game and strategies will always prefer tournaments with higher level of gameplay. This is not true. I'm done with this discussion, have a nice life. | ||
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote: Excellent form: when someone disagrees with you, accuse them of strawmanning you and deride their intelligence. No need to point out their errors in reasoning, or anything. Ahh, the internet. Where reading compreshension is the job of the author, not the reader. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:30 Leth0 wrote: I wont lower myself to petty insults. Stay classy tyler. The post I was responding to has real insults. It was a courtesy for me to say something only petty. You can enjoy more than one thing. And you very likely don't enjoy any two things exactly equally. You may be incapable or uninterested in perceiving the differences, but they're there. Viewing a tournament has dozens of aspects that each person likes to a different extent. Just because you get your jollies by watching white players win tournaments to the sound of a roaring crowd does not mean that you don't also like SC2. What I say is that the aspect of a tournament I care about the most is the quality of the games. That is, I care about the game itself. A bunch of idiots have argued semantics and want to claim a phrase or word as their own for who knows what fucking reason. So if you think SC2, the name of the game, includes things like tournaments and progamers and crowds and commentators and overlays and whether or not a tournament is PPV, then know that that's not what I mean by caring about only the game itself. I really don't give a shit what phrase or word we use to describe it but I think we all know the distinction by now. I know that other people do not rank game quality the highest. I pointed out some other aspects that I don't give a shit about (but I know other people do) so that people could understand how I could strongly prefer an event like MLG Arena without falling back to this MLG favoritism bullshit. I even noted I'm in the minority. I just want people to understand me  What you should have gathered by now is that these aspects and how much we like them are relative. We've determined they're all on the positive side of the spectrum (or at worst, neutral for some people) so we know that ideally we want to maximize each aspect. We want the best crowd, the highest quality games and stream, the greatest variety of players, etc. But resources are limited and tournaments must choose to focus and prioritize one aspect over another. This creates a variety of events. Some people will prefer some over others (but enjoy both). Giving a thumbs up to a tournament is minimally useful feedback. Expressing detailed preferences and elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of each aspect of the tournament is much more useful. If you want to give a thumbs up to both, that's great. That's more than what most people do. But if you don't see the use in people saying what they enjoy more, then fuck off. If you don't understand something, then don't say anything unless you're humbly seeking help to understand. You say you don't understand why I "get off" talking down to people like an elitist laughing at everyone else's interests. Perhaps you don't understand it because that isn't an accurate fucking picture. Do you even question for a second why you don't understand something? You observe something and come up with some stupid interpretation. Then you publicly express your interpretation, which defames someone involved, and your confusion. You deserve to be called out for that shit. Sarcastically saying "stay classy" is far from a classy way to express your disapproval. If the irony wasn't intentional, then you're fucking stupid. And if it was intentional, being ironic is fucking stupid anyway. | ||
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msl
Germany477 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:48 sickoota wrote: I'll give up on using the word "fan", but clearly those who value quality of gameplay over everything else must be said to be more engaged and interested in starcraft the game than those who choose to watch a tournament with better everything else. On April 25 2012 04:48 sickoota wrote: You seem insulted by the fact I am insinuating you are less engaged in gameplay than someone who watched MLG when you admit you choose what tournament to watch based on factors other than gameplay... No, but people could be upset that you think you're more engaged and interessted in Starcraft because you're prioritising gameplay over other aspects. Who is more engaged in Starcraft, a guy that organizes a Barcraft but is in bronze league or a retired pro that still watches the stream with the best gameplay and has a real understanding of whats going on but never does anything but watch? | ||
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Chriscras
Korea (South)2812 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:39 flanksteak wrote: It's kinda like going to a basketball game for the cheerleaders. I enjoy cheerleaders, and I also enjoy the game itself - but clearly these are two different things? SC2 Cheerleaders? Sounds good to me! | ||
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Chriscras
Korea (South)2812 Posts
On April 25 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote: If the irony wasn't intentional, then you're fucking stupid. And if it was intentional, being ironic is fucking stupid anyway. BOOM! Headshot  | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On April 25 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote: I just want people to understand me Hah. You could have made a simple statement like: "I prioritize high level gameplay, everything else is peripheral to me. That's why I preferred MLG over Dreamhack this weekend." Try spending less time reading lesswrong, another place where they need two thousand words and various absurd analogies to say something simple. User was warned for this post | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
On April 25 2012 05:29 msl wrote: No, but people could be upset that you think you're more engaged and interessted in Starcraft because you're prioritising gameplay over other aspects. Who is more engaged in Starcraft, a guy that organizes a Barcraft but is in bronze league or a retired pro that still watches the stream with the best gameplay and has a real understanding of whats going on but never does anything but watch? As nony said arguing semantics is stupid, so I stopped. If you were a slightly more astute reader you would've noticed I wrote "more engaged and interested in starcraft the game" as opposed to your hypothetical bronize who would be engaged in the social/organization aspect of the competitive starcraft scene. Also how engaged you are in gameplay has nothing to do with your knowledge of it, if your bronzie tried to watch the best pro matches with a desire to understand and learn he could easily be more engaged than an apathetic pro. And so the answer to your question was right in front of you all along. | ||
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Gluttony
Sweden160 Posts
Tyler really makes me feel inferior, we are only a few years in age apart, but the way you can write and tell off people. Love it. This whole eh, "argument" could almost be seen as Tyler's secret masterplan to educate the community. But I don't think he has any real interest in such  Really appreciates that you still post. GL in NASL! On topic: Im glad you guys are kind of back with the show! I have of course been checking regularly to see news about new shows. slightest hints makes me happy Keep it up all! It's much appreciated! | ||
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