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On June 08 2011 23:50 Nausea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 23:38 Promises wrote:
So basically people shouldnt say rape because it offends other people and there are words you can also use to avoid this. So we shouldnt say Jesus Christ! Or Holy shit! Because there are plenty of people who get offended and you can see Gosh or whatever. Same goes for common cursewords such as shit or fuck. Then there's fundamentalists offended by the mention of female bodyparts, sex in general etc. We can work around this so why shouldnt we? This doesnt (as Geoff pointed out) immediatly mean we just have to throw it all overboard but it does mean that the argument that "it might offend people and there's another word for it, so you are.. (let me scroll back) "an idiot", "need to go back to school", "shallow idiot with 50 iq"" doesn't quite hold since none of us seem to be prepared to give up exclamations of the sort I mentioned above, thus measuring with double standards. I'm sure there's a reason behind why you chose to ignore one plee and honor the next, but just "offensive and can be replaced" isnt one. And thus it would be fine to say "he got enslaved like a nigger" ? Sure it might offend some black people, but hell you can't please everyone right? Getting offended by words like "shit", "fuck" is not the same thing. Neither is "holy shit" or "jesus christ", those might be offensive for a person with religious beliefs, key word: beliefs. What you are trying to do is to use a word that is used to name a criminal act and you try to use it in a positive fashion, why? What is the point? Even worse, my friend who is a rape victim watches sc2 and have to hear that shit. You can not say that f.e "killed" "kill" is the same thing, someone who got killed wont take offense because they wont be watching. Ofcourse someone close to someone who got killed might take offense. A rape victim might be watching.
I agree with that to some extend, and so did everyone on SotG. Destiny claimed he'd never say those things if he was casting a tournament, but he wanted to feel free to say whatever he wants to on his stream. What are you doing watching Destiny's stream in the first place if you get offended by it?
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I do believe that the problem with these words is with the audience, and I'd like you to try to explain why exactly this is narrow minded. Language is a fluent thing which changes over the course of time, and certain words that would be deemed highly inappropriate can become mainstream, and derogatory meanings of words might fade and/or differ. In the context of the discussion they were having in SotG I see the point that if you are trying to pander (is that hows it's spelled?) to a crowd that gets offended at these cursewords then it's better to avoid them, however if those arent the people your trying to pander to or care about, which might well be the case, then it ends there.
We give meaning to words which cause our perception of them to be good or bad, and these meanings arent rigid. Player X raped those marines with his Banelings is so obviously not-linked to the actual act op sexual abuse that taking offense to this is, in my eyes, a flaw in the sense that your letting your emotions rule your rationale. Its a completely understandable flaw, and in many cases one I wouldnt hold against people, but its a flaw nonetheless.
Didn't you read what I wrote? The problem is that this changes the meaning of the term "rape", just like using "fag" about someone you do not like alters the perception of people who really are 'fags' (homosexual), by forming an implicit normative judgement of them.
If you rape another player, that's no big deal, and it happened because the other player was playing worse so they kind of had it coming, the other player can prove themselves again later by returning the favor, and so on. None of this is, of course, true of people who have actually been raped. But the same word is still being used, so the 'grammatical' use of the term changes with it, and as a consequence, our general understanding and discussion of rape.
Also, of course it is not narrow minded to take into account the members of an audience who may be offended by some utterance. However, it is narrow minded to think that 'someone could get offended' is the sole objection to this particular language-use.
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On June 07 2011 18:36 Crovea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 17:52 WhiteDog wrote:
There is no problem in saying nigger or rape once in a while depending on the context. It can be pretty funny.
What is pretty ridiculous with Destiny is that he is saying this world like a motto, a habit, which is pretty pathetic, especially when you're a white boy. I don't think it offend anyone in any way so nobody should even try to stop him from using this word, but someone got to tell him that it's pretty pathetic and if he wants to give himself a "cool" style, he should just find another way. His point is that he doesn't give a crap about "cool style" or whatever you think he's after. He talks the way he feels like and thats the end of it.
And he feels that it is the way he wants to talk because he "feels" so cool everytime he says "Nigger!" or "Rape!". Well, now maybe it's some kind of habbit, he says it because he likes it, like it is some little part of his self, but the first few times he said it, it was because he wanted to give himself some kind of gangsta style. I bet Destiny grew up in a neighborhood with a good % of the population being black. Well that's just my point of view.
And that's indeed the end of it.
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On June 09 2011 00:07 Nausea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 00:01 Promises wrote:
So might the child or partner of a killed father or whatever be but thats besides the point. In the specific case you mentioned ie enslaved like a nigger, the word is not at all used in the new context and as such will probably be as offensive as is intended. Saying "nigga please" or something similar (the biker-fag thing from southpark) has disconnected from the orginal meaning, which was meant to hurt and offend, as does raping marines with banelings does. It's not disconnected, rape is about domination and control. Ask a victim and see how disconnected the term is. You are defending a pointless term used for no better reason than the lack of taste for using something better. Childish "im not gonna sell out" or change who I am doesnt count, sorry. And I'm saying that if you defend that you must be stupid. (no offense) I didnt mean it like that.
Yea I'm sorry I didnt clarify what I meant by disconnected there, what I meant was that altho it ofcourse still has some link to what it used to mean, it doesnt cary the same weight and emotion with it anymore. Nigger generally refers to black people as it did back then, but now people use it playingly and even on white people, where back then it had all kinds of terrible backdrop of meaning and discrimination. If someone mentions enslaved like a nigger, it's hard to picture that being said in a playfull, non-racist context (it is possible, it's just the darker side of humor among friends I guess), while I think for most gamers it's very easy to picture the word rape outside of the horrific act and as a word of owning someone (owning, another slave reference perhaps?).
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On June 09 2011 00:30 Promises wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 00:07 Nausea wrote:On June 09 2011 00:01 Promises wrote:
So might the child or partner of a killed father or whatever be but thats besides the point. In the specific case you mentioned ie enslaved like a nigger, the word is not at all used in the new context and as such will probably be as offensive as is intended. Saying "nigga please" or something similar (the biker-fag thing from southpark) has disconnected from the orginal meaning, which was meant to hurt and offend, as does raping marines with banelings does. It's not disconnected, rape is about domination and control. Ask a victim and see how disconnected the term is. You are defending a pointless term used for no better reason than the lack of taste for using something better. Childish "im not gonna sell out" or change who I am doesnt count, sorry. And I'm saying that if you defend that you must be stupid. (no offense) I didnt mean it like that. Yea I'm sorry I didnt clarify what I meant by disconnected there, what I meant was that altho it ofcourse still has some link to what it used to mean, it doesnt cary the same weight and emotion with it anymore. Nigger generally refers to black people as it did back then, but now people use it playingly and even on white people, where back then it had all kinds of terrible backdrop of meaning and discrimination. If someone mentions enslaved like a nigger, it's hard to picture that being said in a playfull, non-racist context (it is possible, it's just the darker side of humor among friends I guess), while I think for most gamers it's very easy to picture the word rape outside of the horrific act and as a word of owning someone (owning, another slave reference perhaps?).
Yes, I understand your point but it's just not correct.
Black comedians started using "nigga please" and such, therefor it grew in to the mainstream later on, it's still not very easy for a white person to get away with it. Go up to a random black guy and say "nigga plz", let's see what happens shall we?
Until rape victims start to use the term jokingly it is not the same thing and even then it would be questionable if you can use it.
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People arguing about speech on the internet need to get over it. Your not going to convince Destiny to change, your not going to convince anyone already watching Destiny to stop watching. Your just talking for the sake of talking.
I don't watch Destiny, I don't care about Destiny, but I am sick of every thread turning into a debate on the use of rape on the internet.
Get over it, and move on. Lets not lock this thread as well.
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On June 09 2011 00:24 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 18:36 Crovea wrote:On June 07 2011 17:52 WhiteDog wrote:
There is no problem in saying nigger or rape once in a while depending on the context. It can be pretty funny.
What is pretty ridiculous with Destiny is that he is saying this world like a motto, a habit, which is pretty pathetic, especially when you're a white boy. I don't think it offend anyone in any way so nobody should even try to stop him from using this word, but someone got to tell him that it's pretty pathetic and if he wants to give himself a "cool" style, he should just find another way. His point is that he doesn't give a crap about "cool style" or whatever you think he's after. He talks the way he feels like and thats the end of it. And he feels that it is the way he wants to talk because he "feels" so cool everytime he says "Nigger!" or "Rape!". Well, now maybe it's some kind of habbit, he says it because he likes it, like it is some little part of his self, but the first few times he said it, it was because he wanted to give himself some kind of gangsta style. I bet Destiny grew up in a neighborhood with a good % of the population being black. Well that's just my point of view. And that's indeed the end of it.
Lol, what's a "good %" of black people? As someone (a white kid) who went to a high school with about 35% black students and knowing how that affected my views on the words; I would make the opposite bet.
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On June 09 2011 00:45 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 00:24 WhiteDog wrote:On June 07 2011 18:36 Crovea wrote:On June 07 2011 17:52 WhiteDog wrote:
There is no problem in saying nigger or rape once in a while depending on the context. It can be pretty funny.
What is pretty ridiculous with Destiny is that he is saying this world like a motto, a habit, which is pretty pathetic, especially when you're a white boy. I don't think it offend anyone in any way so nobody should even try to stop him from using this word, but someone got to tell him that it's pretty pathetic and if he wants to give himself a "cool" style, he should just find another way. His point is that he doesn't give a crap about "cool style" or whatever you think he's after. He talks the way he feels like and thats the end of it. And he feels that it is the way he wants to talk because he "feels" so cool everytime he says "Nigger!" or "Rape!". Well, now maybe it's some kind of habbit, he says it because he likes it, like it is some little part of his self, but the first few times he said it, it was because he wanted to give himself some kind of gangsta style. I bet Destiny grew up in a neighborhood with a good % of the population being black. Well that's just my point of view. And that's indeed the end of it. Lol, what's a "good %" of black people? As someone (a white kid) who went to a high school with about 35% black students and knowing how that affected my views on the words; I would make the opposite bet.
By a good %, I meant a black dominant neighborhood. Well that was a poor guess anyway, I was simply saying he was copying the black older boys he saw when he was a kid, because they felt so cool with his kids' eyes.
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Did Tyler wear the shirt at MLG Columbus?
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On June 09 2011 00:57 Soleron wrote:
Did Tyler wear the shirt at MLG Columbus?
Yes he did
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I'm sure your not trying to argue that the way a random black person reacts to nigga please is the end of the discussion on weather or not the word turned mainstream right? And I have black friends who I occasionally call nigga and they'r not bothered, as they know the context (which assumingly is the same context in which every black person uses it).
To say that I'm stupid is up to you, it doesnt seem like a thing you'd say in a rational discussion because it doesnt actually add anything but thats your choice.
To say my point is wrong is a matter of perspective, and the reason we argue. You mean to say, or should mean to say you disagree.
Its very hard to argue against someone's sensitivities, because there's easy emotional arguments (not nececarily (<-- that has to be spelled wrong) wrong arguments) to be made and unless you've been trough it you're apparantly not allowed to argue. I can never feel what these victims of either form of abuse felt, but I can rationalise that when it's clear to all parties that the word isnt meant in any hatefull way, and not at all in the same context it was used to then altho it's understandable if the word still has a bitter taste I wouldnt dream of trying to inhibit people in their way of speech because I can't control my emotions.
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On June 09 2011 01:03 Krainer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 00:57 Soleron wrote:
Did Tyler wear the shirt at MLG Columbus? Yes he did
Oh wow ^^ That looks incredibly rediculous =)
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On June 09 2011 00:56 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 00:45 TheFrankOne wrote:On June 09 2011 00:24 WhiteDog wrote:On June 07 2011 18:36 Crovea wrote:On June 07 2011 17:52 WhiteDog wrote:
There is no problem in saying nigger or rape once in a while depending on the context. It can be pretty funny.
What is pretty ridiculous with Destiny is that he is saying this world like a motto, a habit, which is pretty pathetic, especially when you're a white boy. I don't think it offend anyone in any way so nobody should even try to stop him from using this word, but someone got to tell him that it's pretty pathetic and if he wants to give himself a "cool" style, he should just find another way. His point is that he doesn't give a crap about "cool style" or whatever you think he's after. He talks the way he feels like and thats the end of it. And he feels that it is the way he wants to talk because he "feels" so cool everytime he says "Nigger!" or "Rape!". Well, now maybe it's some kind of habbit, he says it because he likes it, like it is some little part of his self, but the first few times he said it, it was because he wanted to give himself some kind of gangsta style. I bet Destiny grew up in a neighborhood with a good % of the population being black. Well that's just my point of view. And that's indeed the end of it. Lol, what's a "good %" of black people? As someone (a white kid) who went to a high school with about 35% black students and knowing how that affected my views on the words; I would make the opposite bet. By a good %, I meant a black dominant neighborhood. Well that was a poor guess anyway, I was simply saying he was copying the black older boys he saw when he was a kid, because they felt so cool with his kids' eyes.
I just noticed you're French which explains a lot. (no prejudice here just think I need to explain a couple things) In the U.S. a white kid growing up in a predominantly black neighborhood would definitely not use "nigger" he may very well use "nigga" as a reference to friends, likely not often, but with some of his friends. It just is not really acceptable to use the word as a derogatory term in black communities regardless of race.
Edit: that picture of Tyler is awesome
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On June 09 2011 01:05 Promises wrote:
I'm sure your not trying to argue that the way a random black person reacts to nigga please is the end of the discussion on weather or not the word turned mainstream right? And I have black friends who I occasionally call nigga and they'r not bothered, as they know the context (which assumingly is the same context in which every black person uses it).
To say that I'm stupid is up to you, it doesnt seem like a thing you'd say in a rational discussion because it doesnt actually add anything but thats your choice.
To say my point is wrong is a matter of perspective, and the reason we argue. You mean to say, or should mean to say you disagree.
Its very hard to argue against someone's sensitivities, because there's easy emotional arguments (not nececarily (<-- that has to be spelled wrong) wrong arguments) to be made and unless you've been trough it you're apparantly not allowed to argue. I can never feel what these victims of either form of abuse felt, but I can rationalise that when it's clear to all parties that the word isnt meant in any hatefull way, and not at all in the same context it was used to then altho it's understandable if the word still has a bitter taste I wouldnt dream of trying to inhibit people in their way of speech because I can't control my emotions.
We can stop the discussion here, I have no grudge against you.
I was just trying to prove a point that some words will always be bad.
(as in i wasnt serious when calling you idiot)
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Fair enough, lets leave it at that =) On a different note, wasnt there something about Day[9] having to wear a shirt of some1's choice aswell?
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On June 09 2011 01:27 Promises wrote:
Fair enough, lets leave it at that =) On a different note, wasnt there something about Day[9] having to wear a shirt of some1's choice aswell?
He lost a bet with JP on the results of a match, and must wear a shirt of JP's choosing on the next SOTG.
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are you still trying to decide what words people are, and are not allowed to use?
silly discussion
You can't ever control what words someone else uses, so its not worth discussion, especially not in this thread
whether or not fag, nigger, rape etc offend you is also not relevant because the people who use these words don't give a fuck about you or your emotional hangups on words
case closed!
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On June 09 2011 00:24 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 18:36 Crovea wrote:On June 07 2011 17:52 WhiteDog wrote:
There is no problem in saying nigger or rape once in a while depending on the context. It can be pretty funny.
What is pretty ridiculous with Destiny is that he is saying this world like a motto, a habit, which is pretty pathetic, especially when you're a white boy. I don't think it offend anyone in any way so nobody should even try to stop him from using this word, but someone got to tell him that it's pretty pathetic and if he wants to give himself a "cool" style, he should just find another way. His point is that he doesn't give a crap about "cool style" or whatever you think he's after. He talks the way he feels like and thats the end of it. And he feels that it is the way he wants to talk because he "feels" so cool everytime he says "Nigger!" or "Rape!". Well, now maybe it's some kind of habbit, he says it because he likes it, like it is some little part of his self, but the first few times he said it, it was because he wanted to give himself some kind of gangsta style. I bet Destiny grew up in a neighborhood with a good % of the population being black. Well that's just my point of view. And that's indeed the end of it.
Except the only time I've ever heard Destiny use the word "nigger" on his stream was during discussions like this. I understand how you might misunderstand if all you did was watch SoTG but he wasn't defend his use of the word "nigger" because he doesn't use the word "nigger". He was objecting to the point of view many people take on the use of language in that people are offended by words without context (someone might be offended by the use of the word "nigger" in this discussion) and that he should censor himself because people might be offended.
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On June 09 2011 01:59 darkscream wrote:
are you still trying to decide what words people are, and are not allowed to use?
silly discussion
You can't ever control what words someone else uses, so its not worth discussion, especially not in this thread
whether or not fag, nigger, rape etc offend you is also not relevant because the people who use these words don't give a fuck about you or your emotional hangups on words
case closed!
Yeah you can. It's called voting for censorship laws and that's what is dangerous. Also, that's not even what they are discussing. They are discussing whether people should use certain words.
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I don't like a lot of swearing on streams and using those kinds of words, not because I'm offended, it's more the fact it just feels like they are showing off sometimes. "Oh guess what guys I know the word F*** so I'm going to use it all the time because it's cool to"...
That's all bad language sounds like to me, it's very easy to talk without using curse words so when people are using them all the time it just feel's like they are doing it for the sake of it because they have an audience.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/313287025.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1307549989&Signature=qP9cM14fCEkX7Wb0toaxRZ9xA9o%3D)
