EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1034
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LeatherGracket
Sweden52 Posts
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
On May 07 2011 23:39 zeru wrote: Your bias and ignorance is pretty incredible. Like karpo said you can make the same list for protoss and terran. It's way too hard to actually say how much skill difference there is between 2 players, especially judging from 1 series. No one is going to disagree that nestea is a better player though, however your statement is pretty damn ridiculous. You can ? Build production building, send route probe \ scv back to mineral line, hotkey buildings. Don't worry that if you're not super aware every 30 sec you loose out on your production. Forgot a Mule ? Dont worry about it, throw down 2! Didnt crono as soon as you started ? Dont worry just throw in two for good messures. The mechanics required to play top level as Zerg is far and beyond above anything required for protoss \ terran. Thats why I hold players like NesTea & IdrA at a higher standard then I do with MC, MVP, MK etc. | ||
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Thrill
2599 Posts
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On May 08 2011 05:24 taintmachine wrote: there were no specific examples given by idra, and day9 asked for specific examples. a specific example would be a game, or multiple games, that played out the way idra said, not a theorycrafted situation or a vague anecdote about previous experiences. idra could probably give day9 replays of games, but he didn't at the time and reasonably couldn't given sotg's format and purpose (idra also probably could have recalled games specifically, he almost did when he mentioned he used span's build in nasl). day9 took a skeptical approach to idra's complaints. that's pretty much it. I do remember Idra giving at least one specific game though. You may correct me, but Day9 then responded he didn't watch it- as he hasn't been able to watch SC2 much at all due to graduating and his hardware issues recently. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:05 Sqq wrote: You can ? Build production building, send route probe \ scv back to mineral line, hotkey buildings. Don't worry that if you're not super aware every 30 sec you loose out on your production. Forgot a Mule ? Dont worry about it, throw down 2! Didnt crono as soon as you started ? Dont worry just throw in two for good messures. The mechanics required to play top level as Zerg is far and beyond above anything required for protoss \ terran. Thats why I hold players like NesTea & IdrA at a higher standard then I do with MC, MVP, MK etc. Then if you count micro during battle, protoss and terran requires so much more. Try to dodge baneling with marines while targeting baneling with tanks. Try to keep trying to follow mutas aronud with marines from base to base. Try to set 5-6 perfect ff in a split sec without missing a hole. Zerg might have more stuff to do such as larva inject+creep spread, but during battle the required micro is so much less. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:05 Sqq wrote: You can ? Build production building, send route probe \ scv back to mineral line, hotkey buildings. Don't worry that if you're not super aware every 30 sec you loose out on your production. Forgot a Mule ? Dont worry about it, throw down 2! Didnt crono as soon as you started ? Dont worry just throw in two for good messures. The mechanics required to play top level as Zerg is far and beyond above anything required for protoss \ terran. Thats why I hold players like NesTea & IdrA at a higher standard then I do with MC, MVP, MK etc. This is some of the most idiotic drivel i've read on these forums. I wouldn't even be suprised if it was a troll at this point as no one should be this one sided. Soom terrans need to build production buildning, hotkey them and use mules now and then. It's as simple as that, a 5 year old could do what MVP and MKP are doing. That's more or less what this post says and it's just sad. | ||
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Seldon
90 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:09 Thrill wrote: I really want to see Idra back on the next show and i want to hear JP ask him about not practicing and rather "thinking" about the game yet Nestea (who i imagine trains quite a bit) manages to figure out innovative ways of tackling difficult situations in matchups and maps Idra would say are imbalanced. Nestea also says that Zerg is imbalanced and that you have to get lucky to win, which is exactly the same thing that Idra says. Also you are assuming Idra would lose against people like scfou which is dubious. Nestea hasn't faced anybody good yet. | ||
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Elbonbunny
Ireland60 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:09 Thrill wrote: I can answer that for you: You can always win even in an inherently imbalanced game by taking risks, you just need some luck(of course, being better than your opponent helps too ^^).I really want to see Idra back on the next show and i want to hear JP ask him about not practicing and rather "thinking" about the game yet Nestea (who i imagine trains quite a bit) manages to figure out innovative ways of tackling difficult situations in matchups and maps Idra would say are imbalanced. That's not to say I'm claiming that Nestea plays super risky or anything like that or that Nestea's opponents are always weaker than him, but that's almost guaranteed to be Idra's answer, or something to that effect anyway. Idra wants a way to play zerg without taking risks, something he believes is impossible right now. And so far, no one has been able to come up with anything but conjecture to prove him wrong. If it's even possible to prove such a thing. Hah, that's a challenge something for you people who think starcraft is a science, show me a hypothesis suggesting that idra is wrong which is falsifiable! Until then, argument from authority(while a fallacy) is about the only useful thing we have insofar as discussing what, exactly, is imbalanced(statistics could most likely prove an imbalance exists, but not the cause of that imbalance). Assuming the authority(in this case, idra and nestea) can be trusted to not be overly biased. | ||
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chickenhawk
Portugal339 Posts
You can ? Build production building, send route probe \ scv back to mineral line, hotkey buildings. Don't worry that if you're not super aware every 30 sec you loose out on your production. Forgot a Mule ? Dont worry about it, throw down 2! Didnt crono as soon as you started ? Dont worry just throw in two for good messures. The mechanics required to play top level as Zerg is far and beyond above anything required for protoss \ terran. Thats why I hold players like NesTea & IdrA at a higher standard then I do with MC, MVP, MK etc. Yup.. I never go back to base has protoss to build pylons or buildings.. I also do not have to move my attention from a battle to warp in units. Etc etc... | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:14 Seldon wrote: Nestea also says that Zerg is imbalanced and that you have to get lucky to win, which is exactly the same thing that Idra says. Also you are assuming Idra would lose against people like scfou which is dubious. Nestea hasn't faced anybody good yet. Classic zerg comeback when someone actually does good. It's either that he hasn't faced anyone good or that he's lucky. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:54 LeatherGracket wrote: Idra is totally right. Scouting is the most important factor in any game, so regardless of what race you play you should have an equal opportunity to practice good scouting. That is not saying he is right in every point, but about the scouting particularly he is simply spot-on. a Zerg with better early scouting options would be imbalance cause what ever you do Zerg would be able to stop it. Zerg always has superior production capabilities than Protoss or Terran if they want to be aggressiv they could always outnumber the opponent. it is the imperfect information that keeps Zerg balanced, they have to build some defences not knowing exactly what is to coming. (and actually that is also the same for the other races too) That the reason why Zerg has got overlords and creep spread and usually also mapcontrol. Why does a Protoss has to get a Robo between 6-7min in PvT? because he risks a BO-loss if he does not otherwise due to cloak banshees despite not beeing able to scout it or not. Why shouldn't Zerg build a Roach Warren or Evo Chamber or Spines just in Case? It is not like Zerg would be economical behind just because they did some "useless" tech. Zerg of all races is the one who has to invest least into building Techbuildings. | ||
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Frozenserpent
United States143 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:19 karpo wrote: Classic zerg comeback when someone actually does good. It's either that he hasn't faced anyone good or that he's lucky. Doesn't change the fact that Nestea thinks Zerg is UP too. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:15 Alsn wrote: Idra wants a way to play zerg without taking risks, something he believes is impossible right now. And so far, no one has been able to come up with anything but conjecture to prove him wrong. If it's even possible to prove such a thing. Absolutely the case. My question is: why is it bad that he might have to take risks? Is poker a badly designed game because top players lose a hand now and then? IdrA wins 80% of his ladder games and wins tournaments (which, by the way, are designed so that moving on to another round depends on more than the outcome of a single game.) He appears to feel that if his play's strong enough he should be able to win 100% of his games. Unfortunately, not all games are like that, particularly those that rely on hiding information from the players, as Starcraft does. That doesn't make it bad game design. Edit: I play zerg, I cheer for zerg, and I think IdrA's a great player. However, he's no game designer, and he seems to let his self-interest color his opinions more than many of his peers. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
I think the real problem is that Idra is engaging in intellectual dishonesty. There is a point in the game after your opponent's first military units are out and before you get scouting units that every race is blind. Honestly, Zerg is the least blind until StarPort or Robo/Stargate units come out. Yes there is a certain amount of "blindness" but it happens for all races. Idra asks the question: Is there an all purpose defensive build or a way to know what the other player is doing as Zerg? I ask: Is there for Protoss or Terran? So Idra has framed the debate perfectly as he would like to. What he and everyone else seems to ignore is that a great majority of high end matches essentially end in build order losses. People call this "inspired play" or "cheesy play" depending on their POV, but really it is a well executed build that the other player was not ready for. The real secret is that historically Idra is not good at inventing new ways to play so he doesn't win. He claims he has been "playing cheesy" lately and winning. Not cheesy Idra, innovative. | ||
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Tablespoon
Norway223 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:14 Elbonbunny wrote: Who here thinks the next state of the game is going to be awesome Already looking forward to it. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Idra wants a way to play zerg without taking risks, something he believes is impossible right now. And so far, no one has been able to come up with anything but conjecture to prove him wrong. If it's even possible to prove such a thing. This is on IdrA then. SC2 is fundamentally a game of taking calculated risks. Thats how you get ahead. IdrA's obsession with the perfectly safe build is idiotic--even in BW, the 100% "safe" build was largely illusory, as all it meant was that if you played perfectly and had jedi gamsesene you could theoretically react to anything ala Flash. But even in BW, most players aren't on that level, which is why players still lose to cheese quite frequently. IdrA, of course, lost to exactly the same kind of Protoss cheese all the time in BW as he does in SC2, and his bitching about it was remarkably similar. Doesn't change the fact that Nestea thinks Zerg is UP too. Funny that he literally (as in, earlier today) JUST said he wins 90% of his ZvPs, despite his complaints. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:29 Lysenko wrote: Absolutely the case. My question is: why is it bad that he might have to take risks? Is poker a badly designed game because top players lose a hand now and then? IdrA wins 80% of his ladder games and wins tournaments (which, by the way, are designed so that moving on to another round depends on more than the outcome of a single game.) He appears to feel that if his play's strong enough he should be able to win 100% of his games. Unfortunately, not all games are like that, particularly those that rely on hiding information from the players, as Starcraft does. That doesn't make it bad game design. Edit: I play zerg, I cheer for zerg, and I think IdrA's a great player. However, he's no game designer, and he seems to let his self-interest color his opinions more than many of his peers. He would rather not take risks against players he's better than, because that would risk him losing to a worse player whereas if he were to play straight up he knows he could probably win, and if he didn't it was his fault. When you're up against someone better than you, often you take risks because you would rather put your performance on chance than skill, since you lack the latter relative to your opponent. But if you're better than your opponent, you want to put your performance on skill because you have more of it. Unfortunately SC2 seems to be evolving into a game where you can't beat a risk with skill (unless the skill difference is ridiculous): either the risk pays off or it doesn't and skill has no effect. Sure, you could argue that Poker has elements of risk, but we don't play Poker because most of us are competitive players and fucking hate losing to people who are worse than us (apparently Poker players don't mind as much I guess). The risks in SC2 (all-ins for the most part) are much stronger than in BW because of what IdrA said: Inject Larva, Mules, Chrono Boost and Reactors. All of these let a player get a strong army faster, but scouting (what a good player uses to see and beat risky play) has not been improved to counteract the risky play. That means that risky play is stronger, and the safe player's skill is irrelevant in the face of a cointoss. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Also you are assuming Idra would lose against people like scfou which is dubious. Nestea hasn't faced anybody good yet. Any time a Zerg wins, this is how every Zerg reacts, "it was luck" or "his opponents all sucked". Even when Nestea beat fucking MKP (back when he was Foxer), you had people insisting MKP was a gimmicky one-dimensional player and this meant nothing and Nestea still hadn't beaten anybody "good". | ||
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