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On May 08 2011 10:30 DoomsVille wrote:
It's not bulletproof. Did you even read what I said? If Ret guessed it was a 6rax then he could have defended it and would have been ahead (2 bases vs 1?). If he guesses wrong (which he did) he is dead. It is the terran deciding he wants to flip a coin and hope that his opponent guesses wrong.
Sorry, I got that, and my response didn't really communicate it. If it helps, I'm not out to be argumentative for its own sake. 
Anyway, my point isn't that such things can't happen in a specific game, but more that Starcraft's fog of war mechanic hiding information means that such outcomes are simply unavoidable in some instances. That said, once Terran makes that choice, it becomes a roll of the dice for both players. Good balance doesn't necessarily require eliminating an opening like that forcing a roll of the dice, but it might require that the odds generally be in Zerg's favor over the range of available Zerg openings.
I think that is why some really aggressive openings are being nerfed with patches and others are not.
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Because Idra uses the same argument. First it was Rainbow giving the GSL away to Fruitdealer. Then it was Nestea getting lucky AND not fighting any good players in GSL2.
It's not a small minority that uses these kinds of arguments, they are brought up every time someone mentions successful zergs. It's luck or bad opponents.
Who gives away 80 grand to there opponent?
These players all want to win and they are all good
Also dice rolls don't really exist. Anyone claiming dice roll simply does not know how to scout or observe the opponents units and deduce what exactly those units mean and what technology it implies.
You dont need to reveal fog to know that if your opponent has only marines 6 minutes in that there is tech behind that wall. If you suspect that your opponent is hiding stuff behind the wall, simply apply more pressure, eventually more stuff will come out and shoot you.
All scouting is deniable. Terran scan is deniable by placing tech on the outsides of the base. Overlord is deniable by putting it in the middle of the base. If you look at the area coverage of one scan versus 2 overlords being shot by a couple units they are pretty close. Im not sure what protoss can do but TBH robo is a pretty nice response to any early tech terran throws. Hallucination is a mid game scouting thing unless you delay WG, which would be a tad silly.
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On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game.
and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg?
a protoss would have had exactly the same problem.
a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper
You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine.
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On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game. and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have the same problem a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper
Lol? A terran has the capability of scouting it with exactly what you said, scans and reapers. Zerg doesn't.
Protoss can defend it with the use of sentries and forcefielding ramps. Admittedly protoss could have problems with poor force field use, but they don't need to scout it to defend it.
There is a reason you'll never see it used in a TvT or TvP (it won't work).
Anyways, I didn't say it was a balance issue. It is more zerg being poorly designed.
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[B]On May 08 2011 16:44 DoomsVille wrote:[/B
Protoss can defend it with the use of sentries and forcefielding ramps. Admittedly protoss could have problems with poor force field use, but they don't need to scout it to defend it.
no amount of forcefields will save you from a cloak banshee.
if you don't build a Robotics and Observers "blindly" your dead.
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On May 08 2011 16:45 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On May 08 2011 16:44 DoomsVille wrote:[/B
Protoss can defend it with the use of sentries and forcefielding ramps. Admittedly protoss could have problems with poor force field use, but they don't need to scout it to defend it.
no amount of forcefields will save you from a cloak banshee. if you don't build a Robotics and Observers "blindly" your dead.
That implies a protoss wouldn't go robotics anyways... Robotics is pretty much essential for Protoss. Might as well get an observer while your robotics bay is being created. You'll have the excess gas for it before you start pumping out colossus.
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On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game. and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have had exactly the same problem. a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine.
Protoss and especially Zerg could use better early scouting, yes. Can you not understand why it's worse for Zerg though?
Zerg can not wall in, or keep up with the production of 1 base T or P on 1 base, so obviously theres the need to get an expansion up early. This is especially bad against P, with the problem of forcefields cutting off reinforcements. Imagine having to defend a push as Terran, except you have to put half your production facilities at your natural with no wall off, and the other half has to be back at your main, and you get the basic idea.
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On May 08 2011 16:45 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On May 08 2011 16:44 DoomsVille wrote:[/B
Protoss can defend it with the use of sentries and forcefielding ramps. Admittedly protoss could have problems with poor force field use, but they don't need to scout it to defend it.
no amount of forcefields will save you from a cloak banshee. if you don't build a Robotics and Observers "blindly" your dead.
You can also get a forge and a cannon.
But the big difference for protoss is that robotics and an observer isn't a deviation from the regular build. You don't change anything, since you're getting that observer anyways. The argument is that zerg needs more specific responses; there is no catch-all build that has potential to defend against most things. Protoss DOES have safe builds that don't sacrifice too much economy.
That's the argument, anyways.
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Well some patches earlier also criticised the lack of scouting options for protoss, while this may be true for Zerg too, it needs to come at some cost, cause Zerg benefits from scouting so much more.
They can get greedy as hell or exploit it very hard with an all-in.
Let me phrase it otherwise:
Idra says in a straight up Macrogame he is unbeatable.
If he loses it to some kind (cheesy) timing pushes.
If that the case and scouting is "fixed" and can prepare even better.
doesn't it mean idra will be unbeatable, isn't that a sign of imbalance to you?
There is a reason why Protoss and Terran have to resort to timing pushes.
And that is the overhelming growth of economy of an uncontrolled Zerg player.
If less economic centric gameplay was common Zerg players wouldn't get that much timing pushes as they do now.
Every Zerg i encounter doing Hatch First is taking a risk to gain an economic advantage, if they set it up uncontested they gain a huge lead.
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Protoss can defend it with the use of sentries and forcefielding ramps
You cant defend a 6 rax marine all-in with FF at the ramp. In fact that is the most surefire way to lose. The correct defense is rallying stalkers to the ramp of the terran and kiting all the way back home.
Obviously toss doesn't want to make stalkers so we can get an expo up faster then the terran or else we are behind. If you get a robo that is going to be dead weight in the marine all-in. If you get a gateway you are going to lose to a banshee all-in. FF aren't a magical cure to cheese. They do help, but to dismiss what a toss has to build to counter cheese as trivial is unfair.
And the marine all-in does work against toss except they delay a bit and expand behind it hitting around the time your second colo is 50% done and you dont have range if you expo. The marines will snipe the range-less colo pretty easily from sheer numbers.
You can also get a forge and a cannon... Protoss DOES have safe builds that don't sacrifice too much economy.
so a 450 mineral expense isn't a big investment and sacrifice?
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On May 08 2011 16:50 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote:On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game. and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have had exactly the same problem. a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine. Protoss and especially Zerg could use better early scouting, yes. Can you not understand why it's worse for Zerg though? Zerg can not wall in, or keep up with the production of 1 base T or P on 1 base, so obviously theres the need to get an expansion up early. This is especially bad against P, with the problem of forcefields cutting off reinforcements. Imagine having to defend a push as P or T, except you have to put half your production facilities at your natural with no wall off, and the other half has to be back at your main, and you get the basic idea.
Protoss has Hallucination & Observers. I personally think that if Zerg was given the same scouting tactics as Protoss and Terran it would break the game because of their larva mechanic and the abillity to just hardcounter early game and either go kill them or macro up freely and then later win.
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On May 08 2011 16:56 GoKu` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:50 GwSC wrote:On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote:On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game. and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have had exactly the same problem. a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine. Protoss and especially Zerg could use better early scouting, yes. Can you not understand why it's worse for Zerg though? Zerg can not wall in, or keep up with the production of 1 base T or P on 1 base, so obviously theres the need to get an expansion up early. This is especially bad against P, with the problem of forcefields cutting off reinforcements. Imagine having to defend a push as P or T, except you have to put half your production facilities at your natural with no wall off, and the other half has to be back at your main, and you get the basic idea. Protoss has Hallucination & Observers. I personally think that if Zerg was given the same scouting tactics as Protoss and Terran it would break the game because of their larva mechanic and the abillity to just hardcounter early game and either go kill them or macro up freely and then later win.
I can certainly understand that argument too. Maybe Zerg just need better defensive options, period.
That, or much bigger maps/no close position for more time to react.
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Zerg doesn't need to directly prevent scouting, Zerg can just throw down every tech and leave their opponent clueless about what units they're actually going to be making.
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On May 08 2011 16:52 freetgy wrote:
Well some patches earlier also criticised the lack of scouting options for protoss, while this may be true for Zerg too, it needs to come at some cost, cause Zerg benefits from scouting so much more.
They can get greedy as hell or exploit it very hard with an all-in.
Let me phrase it otherwise:
Idra says in a straight up Macrogame he is unbeatable.
If he loses it to some kind (cheesy) timing pushes.
If that the case and scouting is "fixed" and can prepare even better.
doesn't it mean idra will be unbeatable, isn't that a sign of imbalance to you?
There is a reason why Protoss and Terran have to resort to timing pushes.
And that is the overhelming growth of economy of an uncontrolled Zerg player.
If less economic centric gameplay was common Zerg players wouldn't get that much timing pushes as they do now.
Every Zerg i encounter doing Hatch First is taking a risk to gain an economic advantage, if they set it up uncontested they gain a huge lead.
Idra definitely isn't unbeatable in a straight up macrogame, and he is simply exaggerating if that is what he said.
Not every timing push is a "cheesy" one or is a result of poor scouting options.
Even though Idra bitches about balance a lot, it's kind of a habit, and I have seen several games where Idra simply messed up or outplayed or loses in a straight-up game.
But that isn't what he's talking about. There is a difference between... being angry because he lost and saying w/e, and arguing that scouting options are limited.
Another thing is that timing pushes are not the only way to limit a Zerg's economy. There is harassment,and there is pressure. Or, you can macro up yourself and threaten them by developing an "ideal" max army composition, meaning they will have to pressure you.
I assure you, hatch first against terran isn't that much of a risk, depending on the map. Pool first does have its disadvantages and is weaker to certain timings than hatch first. Hatch first means that you can get a quicker spine crawler at your nat.
Furthermore, hatch first doesn't mean you get behind, or that they get a huge lead. Simply having a regular, macro-oriented opening will keep up with a hatch first build. The bigger factors are... when does the zerg take his third, and when do I get my third. Two-base zerg econ does not pull ahead of 2-base T or 2-base P significantly.
In the case of T, a little bit of pressure is definitely helpful, but merely light pressure is sufficient.
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On May 08 2011 16:58 GwSC wrote:
I can certainly understand that argument too. Maybe Zerg just need better defensive options, period.
That, or much bigger maps/no close position for more time to react.
Zerg already has that, Spinecrawler are already a very good defense, especially with Transfuses.
i mean if i see a Zerg going Hatch First but building some spinecrawlers he is sacrificing alittle bit of economy for safety and that is imho perfectly fine.
As the opposing player i won't attack you, if there are some spinecrawlers
a) because of the risk involved
b) the economic game is more even
So we can play a macrogame and more or less even terms
let take a 6 rax all-in, does a spaniswa opening hold such a thing?
i would guess so. If that the case would that opening be a problem then at all?
while i don't think it is a strategy for every game, there are less economic centric but safer openings.
i mean as long as a Terran oder Protoss doesn't go Nexus/CC first how is a Zerg going to be behind in the economic race, when they do a safer opening?
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After all this discussion my oppinion is that zerg is the aggresive race if you just sit back and let your opponent attack you , then you probably deserve to lose.
The way july zerg plays is a prime example of how zerg should be played. (and in his games vs MC he made some crucial mistakes so please dont bring that up)
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On May 08 2011 17:18 Executor1 wrote:
After all this discussion my oppinion is that zerg is the aggresive race if you just sit back and let your opponent attack you , then you probably deserve to lose.
The way july zerg plays is a prime example of how zerg should be played. (and in his games vs MC he made some crucial mistakes so please dont bring that up)
The reason you don't see more pro zergs being aggressive is the fact that zerg aggression isn't as good as other races. Zerg doesn't have nearly the options for aggression early on that T and P have with all the 1 base push options and warp in mechanic/bunker rushes etc. Any early Zerg push that has a chance at killing a T or P is all in. On the other hand, Terran and Protoss are able to much more easily transition into longer games after a failed pressure or all in due to the ability to ability to wall in/better defensive ability.
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i feel like there's really no way to give zergs really good scouting without adding a new feature/unit or breaking the game. i imagine in a maphack vs maphack scenario, z would always win vs p/t because of their drone and larvae mechanics, so there has to be a limiter on how easy z can scout.
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Please have IdrA on the show against this Tuesday. I'm so eager to hear what he has to say in light of what has been developing on TL forums.
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On May 08 2011 19:05 Battousai13 wrote:
Please have IdrA on the show against this Tuesday. I'm so eager to hear what he has to say in light of what has been developing on TL forums.
i doubt he will say anything
nor will he care
once stuff like this goes past a few days i stop caring.
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EPT
